Article on Liberal Snobism: Grace Centered Magazine

Tom Brite
Tom Brite

November 20th, 2011, 4:15 pm #21

Tom Brite,
Brother, I might have to disagree with you about CM not being anti church of Christ.
The birth of this site was ONLY for being anti church of Christ. Isn't Madison church of Christ a church of Christ? If this site condemns one then it condemns all.

Donnie will counter with this site being against the elders that made changes at Madison. Regardless, if this site attacks elders then it attacks the church. This site, still to this day, can't get over what was done in 2001. Tom, is it good for a few unhappy dissenters to bring the church's problems here for the whole world to see? No!
This site is a cancer....nothing more.
Dave, I forgot to ask you to send me an email. tombrite1@yahoo.com
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 21st, 2011, 12:10 am #22

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Tom,

Since church websites are as public as are religious fora, Dave's leadership info and email address are at these links:

http://www.clemsonchurchofchrist.com/sh ... /shepherds
http://www.clemsonchurchofchrist.com/bulletin

It seems that the impression I get from the words, beliefs and activities of our often-discussed "change agents" and their followers is UNLIKE what I see and read about this congregation of God's people. I like what it proclaims, historically speaking:[/color]
"We have an appeal to go back to the Bible. We have a plea to speak where the Bible speaks and to remain silent where the Bible is silent.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]As many of us know by now, the change agents have reversed the intended, original meaning of "the law of silence." The change agents now say: "God approves or authorizes that which He hasn't said 'NOT TO.'"[/color]

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 21st, 2011, 1:38 am #23

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Virtually all congregations of the church of Christ do not allow inanimate and lifeless musical devices in their assemblies: [/color]
1. Dave and the change agents are anti-church of Christ because they teach that musical instruments enhance "worship" and are God-authorized because the Scripture doesn't say "not to."

2. On the other hand, this website believes and teaches what the church of Christ believes and what the Scripture teaches regarding the purpose of the assembly--to "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; to teach and admonish one another: which musical instruments are incapable of doing.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Virtually all congregations of the church of Christ follow the New Testament pattern for the church; God's plan of salvation including the design and purpose of baptism; and God's directives for Christian living:[/color]
1. Dave and the change agents are anti-church of Christ because, unbeknownst to them, they have replaced, removed or modified: God's pattern for the church; God's plan of redemption; God's directives for NT Christians.

2. On the other hand, this website agrees with the church of Christ regarding the pattern for the church, man's conversion, and God's instructions and principles set forth in the New Testament.
I believe that it is a fact that many rural churches will close theiir doors but because people have moved to the industrial areas or just left to find a job. Even the Right Flight Feathers of the Conservative Bird has fallen into the use of "a new style praise book" from Howards or from the Wimbers (aka wineskinners). That form of singing is intentionaly discording and tagged along with the so called "youth ministers" LaGard Smith told the Christian(?)Chronicle "Fire all of the youth ministers and the problem will go away." Many or most of them have been been cuckolded at WinderPest.

Second, the views from this writer has nothing to do the the "50s." I don't remember ever giving that period of time for authority and it certainly does NOT represent the views of this writer who grasps that CHURCH defined by Christ in the wilderness and the Purpose Driving the Campbells was A School of Christ." And worship was Reading and Musing the Word of Christ: defined in the Bible as the Prophets and apostles. There is NO PREACHER of any sect which grasps that fact.

In fact it was only in the first quarter century that the progressives were infiltrated. I have quoted the Bible or early church history and have NOTHING in common with the pre-50's church: neither does Donnie I believe. Here is what happened approaching the 50's. The "progressives" keep ALL of these and add the financial and mental burden of "worship teams" which deliberately sow's discord.

* The Located Evangelists (like a located travelling salesman or in Shelly's Words "a located Missionary."
* The rise of the STAFF INFECTION came mostly after the 50s but there is no Biblical role or dole.
* The "business week" operation of the church rather than a assembly for teaching when the doors open.
* The budget which the literate of that time denied had any role and was corrupting.
* The rise of the "music" concept in the "conservative churches.
THE HIRED PASTOR.

By T. R. Burnett

I am a hired pastor,
And ride the modern hob,
I preach for stated salary,
And stay upon the job.

I set aside the bishops,
And leave them in the lurch,
What use is there for elders,
When I preach TO THE CHURCH?

The Lord said, "GO ye therefore,"
That was the olden way,
But by my new translation
It simply means TO STAY!

Paul once said to the elders,
(My little soul to shock!)
Down there at old Miletus,
That they should "feed the flock."

But Paul was an old fogy,
Way back in eastern clime,
And did not know the customs
Of this great modern time.

You now must have a preacher,
(Please shout that long and loud!)
In all the towns and cities,
Or you can't draw the crowd.

The Baptists have a pastor,
The smartest in the land,
Digressives have an organ,
And play to beat the band.

If you don't ape the fashions,
You very soon will find
That all the sects and parties
Have left you far behind.

You need not hurt your conscience
With an un-Bible name,
Just call him your EVANGELIST,
I'll PASTOR just the same!

When I was young and greener,
I worked by the old plan,
I knew the word evangelist
Then meant a traveling man.

I went forth with my message,
God's power to save from sin,
I SOUNDED OUT the gospel,
But now I sound it IN!

To keep the church converted,
And free from every fear,
I draw a handsome salary,
One thousand plunks a year!

Farewell, ye old bush arbors,
Ye once had your reward,
Beneath your kindly shelter
I used to "trust the Lord."

But God is now insolvent,
In city, town, and ville,
A church goes his security
For my big gospel bill!

Ho, all LOCATED preachers,
(That sound a bit absurd!)
We'll show those old apostles
How we SOUND IN the word!

Good-by, ye Bible model,
Farewell, ye ancient plea,
Sing loud, ye hired preacher,
"Nearer, my JOB, to thee!"

Back to T.R. Burnett Page
http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/tr ... redpm.html
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily.
Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh,
shall he find faith on the earth?

While old buildings get closed because people leave, the stats are that the Church of Christ has leveled out and that began with the rise of the ACU band of brothers pledged to "Channel advanced degrees to go out and make the needed changes."

Burnett from the Disciples DENIED that the Church of Christ every "unioned" with the Disciples/Christian churches.

http://www.piney.com/Stone.Campbell.Burnett.html

If that is a FACT then the whole "progressive-rubber wineskin" movement trying to seduce the youth into going instrumental is a big lie.

Last edited by Ken.Sublett on November 21st, 2011, 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave
Dave

November 21st, 2011, 3:06 pm #24

Just curious what some of you think about this article:

It talks about how "Christian" liberals talk a good game with acceptance and grace but when it comes to someone more conservative than them they name call, insult and question their salvation. Things they would call judgmental.

Kind of suprised me it was on Grace Centered.
Donnie said "Dave and the change agents are anti-church of Christ because they teach that musical instruments enhance "worship" and are God-authorized because the Scripture doesn't say "not to.""

Dave has NEVER taught that musical instruments are God-authorized. That is untrue. Donnie suggesested that the PA system, although unauthorized could enhance the worship service and then I suggested that, like a PA system, a piano could do the same. Now Donnie wants it to sound like I am saying that the piano is now "authorized." It is just Donnie trying futilely to put words in my mouth. It is his only path since the Truth is not with him. I have ALSO NEVER used the phrase that God said "not to." That would also be untue. I have confronted Donnie with that allegation before and he never could prove that I said or even suggested such; therefore simply untrue.....again.

Donnie also said "Dave and the change agents are anti-church of Christ because, unbeknownst to them, they have replaced, removed or modified: God's pattern for the church; God's plan of redemption; God's directives for NT Christians."

Donnie will not admit that the church we have today looks nothing like the first century church. Donnie permits four-part harmony. The church did not employ four-part harmony. Four-part harmony is a man-made tradition that Donnie (and myself) approve of. The same can be said of meeting in church buildings instead of homes, using a PA system instead of the natural voice, etc., etc. I have always said that the traditions of man are not wrong in and of themselves. The wrong comes in when one man thinks HIS traditions are better than anothers. Traditions are wrong when they clash with God's Word.
Instrumental music is nothing more than another tradition that some Christians use to worship God with WHILE singing. The singing is still adhered to but just accompanied with an instrument. Our congregation has decided to stay with a cappela. I make Donnie angry because he believes that since I don't condemn those who use instrumental music then I must condone it. This site is living proof that a person can make any sort of false allegations that they want against individuals or even whole congregations. Their day is coming.

This site is a cancer.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

November 22nd, 2011, 1:25 am #25

On several occasions, Dave has called this site a "cancer." On several occasions, Anonymous has remarked about all the catfighting that goes on between Dave and Donnie. Donnie keeps "approving" Dave's "cancer" remarks, which contribute nothing substantial to the topic at hand, yet Donnie says that remarks about catfighting "must stop," because he believes it contributes nothing substantial to the topic at hand.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the double standard at work here, which gives this site a BAD NAME.
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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

November 22nd, 2011, 3:08 am #26

At least Bill has stopped referring to himself in the third person. Perhaps things are looking up around here!
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 23rd, 2011, 8:26 am #27

Donnie said "Dave and the change agents are anti-church of Christ because they teach that musical instruments enhance "worship" and are God-authorized because the Scripture doesn't say "not to.""

Dave has NEVER taught that musical instruments are God-authorized. That is untrue. Donnie suggesested that the PA system, although unauthorized could enhance the worship service and then I suggested that, like a PA system, a piano could do the same. Now Donnie wants it to sound like I am saying that the piano is now "authorized." It is just Donnie trying futilely to put words in my mouth. It is his only path since the Truth is not with him. I have ALSO NEVER used the phrase that God said "not to." That would also be untue. I have confronted Donnie with that allegation before and he never could prove that I said or even suggested such; therefore simply untrue.....again.

Donnie also said "Dave and the change agents are anti-church of Christ because, unbeknownst to them, they have replaced, removed or modified: God's pattern for the church; God's plan of redemption; God's directives for NT Christians."

Donnie will not admit that the church we have today looks nothing like the first century church. Donnie permits four-part harmony. The church did not employ four-part harmony. Four-part harmony is a man-made tradition that Donnie (and myself) approve of. The same can be said of meeting in church buildings instead of homes, using a PA system instead of the natural voice, etc., etc. I have always said that the traditions of man are not wrong in and of themselves. The wrong comes in when one man thinks HIS traditions are better than anothers. Traditions are wrong when they clash with God's Word.
Instrumental music is nothing more than another tradition that some Christians use to worship God with WHILE singing. The singing is still adhered to but just accompanied with an instrument. Our congregation has decided to stay with a cappela. I make Donnie angry because he believes that since I don't condemn those who use instrumental music then I must condone it. This site is living proof that a person can make any sort of false allegations that they want against individuals or even whole congregations. Their day is coming.

This site is a cancer.
Response to Dave's "Clawing" Message:

<ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave now denies that he has ever taught "that musical instruments are God-authorized." Well, Dave, you have always defended the use of such inanimate, lifeless musical devices in the assembly even to this date. In fact, most of your posts have been: (a) in defense of instrumental music, besides (b) about your condemnation of this website [of which you are a partaker].

From your denial, we can draw one of two conclusions: (a) that you now agree with me and the truth in which we'll never find that God has authorized mechanical music in the assembly, or (b) that the opposite is true -- man is indeed capable of authorizing that which God has not authorized.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]However, even with that denial, Dave continues and will continue to teach that God does not disapprove the use of mechanical worship in the assembly. Again, just what is the opposite of "disapprove"; just what is the opposite of "unauthorized"? You may not use the exact expression "not to" or "do not do" -- but in your heart and mind, it is still the same logic, i.e., you are looking for a "thou shalt not."[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You are the one who keeps making the PA system and the piano analogy to "compute." It does not compute. In the assembly or gathering of saints, the loud speaker systems may be needed so that the sermon deliverer can be heard. On the other hand, the progressive church's CHOIR (Praise Team) is unnecessary, controversial and divisive. Even worse is when the CHOIR members hold their individual microphones as they perform to and for the congregants.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The New Testament church today follows the same biblical pattern as God's family in terms of its structure and organization, the conversion process in which one outside of Christ is redeemed from sins and becomes God's child, the principles and directives by which members of His body follow and live. These are the New Testament teachings that the change agents are busily undoing as they now reject the patterm and make every attempt to restructure the church, modify God's plan of redemption, adulterate the principles and directives for Christian living.

And here, Dave is literally looking at and analyzing other things. There's news for you. We are not speaking of church buildings, pews, toilets, song books, the suit and tie, baptistery, etc.

Rather, we are speaking here of teachings, principles, directives and doctrines that we find in the New Testament in contrast to the those of the change agents and their denominational mentors.[/color]</li>[/list]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 23rd, 2011, 5:51 pm #28

Just curious what some of you think about this article:

It talks about how "Christian" liberals talk a good game with acceptance and grace but when it comes to someone more conservative than them they name call, insult and question their salvation. Things they would call judgmental.

Kind of suprised me it was on Grace Centered.

NO ONE CAN BE A DISCIPLE AND SAY THAT GOD DID NOT CONDEMN PRIVATE OPINION (DOUBTFUL DISPUTATIONS) AND ALL OF THE PLEASURE ACTIONS.




If you say that God commanded or did not outlaw instruments when we go to BIBLE CLASS (only).
And Christ says just the opposite.
Then Christ in Jeremiah 23 says that you blasphemy the Holy (adjective) Spirit of Christ who outlawed the performing arts as noise makers beginning with the Church of Christ in the wilderness.

According to Philo, "the gods of the pagans exploit this weakness of men. For the sake of a better effect, and with the intention of more easily cheating their devotees, they have set their lies to melodies, rhythms and meters."

"In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51)


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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 24th, 2011, 2:49 am #29

Just curious what some of you think about this article:

It talks about how "Christian" liberals talk a good game with acceptance and grace but when it comes to someone more conservative than them they name call, insult and question their salvation. Things they would call judgmental.

Kind of suprised me it was on Grace Centered.
The direct commands span the "singing and harp playing prostitute" in the garden of Eden to the Babylon Mother of Harlost (Rev 17) who uses speakers, singers, instrument players and craftsmen (theater builders and stage managers. (Maybe makeup people praiseteam). Paul called them Sorcerers.

Christ promised another REST day in the prophets and defined both REST and BURDEN exactly as the Law of Moses.

The Laded burden was a form of songs "which creates spiritual anxiety in religious rituals."

Paul has defined the SELF pleasure in Romans 15 using a word which excludes all of the hypocrites and hypocritic arts: preaching, singing, playing instruments, acting. This is the same message as in Ephesiand 4 where the elders have the duty to EXCLUDE all of the performing arts. Common sense agrees that this must be done before you can conduct what Paul called "synagogue" which was and is a School (only) of the Word (only) of Christ.

We know that to be true by Paul's ANTITHESIS. Not even Jesus spoke on His own: He revealed only which the Father in heaven told Him to say. Jesus in Holy Spirit form spoke only what Jesus in the flesh taught. Paul taught only what the Lord as "Jesus of Nazareth) SPOKE to Him after qualifying Him by appearing to Him. When "all that applies to life and godliness" has been supplied, only those not OF TRUTH or not OF FAITH need any more liberty to enhance the unlawful collection plate.

Jesus says THESE WORDS will judge us in the last days. The OLD PATHS are ways in which to walk: there is nothing that can happen in A School of Christ connected with "culture" that a disciple of Christ would NEED or WANT. The Old Paths are clearly That Which is Written for our learning; Peter says that anyone who does not SPEAK that left "memory" is a False Teacher.

ANTITHESIS:



The Amos and Hezekiah PATTERN set up as a trap was the Marzeah or the Agapae.

In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51). (Proof Here).

And Jubal HANDLED musical instruments WITHOUT AUTHORITY. In the Babylonian tablets version He used musical instruments to collect all of YOUR animals, take them to His cities and the SELL them back to you.

Last edited by Ken.Sublett on November 24th, 2011, 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave
Dave

November 24th, 2011, 7:48 am #30

Just curious what some of you think about this article:

It talks about how "Christian" liberals talk a good game with acceptance and grace but when it comes to someone more conservative than them they name call, insult and question their salvation. Things they would call judgmental.

Kind of suprised me it was on Grace Centered.
Donnie,
Of all that senseless diatribe of yours and numbered points of false accusations.... I will only give you the honor of answering one statement that you made. You said "In fact, most of your posts have been: (a) in defense of instrumental music, besides (b) about your condemnation of this website [of which you are a partaker]."

I want you and anyone else to make sure that this is known......I am NOT nor NEVER have been, nor EVER will be a partaker color> of this site....no matter how many times you say it. I am a fellow (one of many, including those at Madison where you attend) condemner color> of this site.....not a partaker. Even you, Donnie, can know the difference between the two. If you have something against a brother, an elder, a congregation.....you go to them. You DO NOT bring it here for all the heathen world to see. It is a sin. It is Scriptural.



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