Are Conventional Church Dramas Scriptural?

Are Conventional Church Dramas Scriptural?

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

April 28th, 2006, 1:52 pm #1

Some people maintain that baptism and the Lord's Supper are forms of "drama," because baptism "acts out" the Lord's death, and the Lord's Supper "shows" the Lord's death until He returns. These people further maintain that all who participate in baptism and the Lord's Supper are "actors." And still others go so far as to say that Jesus' miracles were also "dramas." If so, then Jesus was likewise an "actor." Through such arguments, people attempt to justify conventional stage productions or "dramas" in their churches, especially at Christmas and Easter, and cite passages like 1 Cor. 11:26.

While we know that the New Testament does not authorize observing specific days such as Easter and Christmas, what about church dramas in general? Are they scriptural or just another worldly way to entertain the crowds?
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B
B

April 28th, 2006, 6:00 pm #2

The essence of the gospel is the story. A drama is no different from a flannelgraph, a sermon, a tract or a Jule Miller filmstrip. They are all attempts to tell the story. If any of those techniques are effective at doing that, it would be wise to use them.
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TheMaskedMusicator
TheMaskedMusicator

April 28th, 2006, 10:10 pm #3

Some people maintain that baptism and the Lord's Supper are forms of "drama," because baptism "acts out" the Lord's death, and the Lord's Supper "shows" the Lord's death until He returns. These people further maintain that all who participate in baptism and the Lord's Supper are "actors." And still others go so far as to say that Jesus' miracles were also "dramas." If so, then Jesus was likewise an "actor." Through such arguments, people attempt to justify conventional stage productions or "dramas" in their churches, especially at Christmas and Easter, and cite passages like 1 Cor. 11:26.

While we know that the New Testament does not authorize observing specific days such as Easter and Christmas, what about church dramas in general? Are they scriptural or just another worldly way to entertain the crowds?
Observance of "special days" are neither authorized or unauthorized. Col 2:16, "16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

Throw that in with a little Romans 14 action, and I think you should keep your judgements to yourself.

I don't personally care for church dramas because I am not a PhDUH, and I am not cultured, apparently. However, to INVENT A SIN, where God has NOT, is to add to God's Word (Rev. 22:18-19). AND we know how God feels about that.
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Judge Knott
Judge Knott

April 29th, 2006, 12:17 am #4

Some people maintain that baptism and the Lord's Supper are forms of "drama," because baptism "acts out" the Lord's death, and the Lord's Supper "shows" the Lord's death until He returns. These people further maintain that all who participate in baptism and the Lord's Supper are "actors." And still others go so far as to say that Jesus' miracles were also "dramas." If so, then Jesus was likewise an "actor." Through such arguments, people attempt to justify conventional stage productions or "dramas" in their churches, especially at Christmas and Easter, and cite passages like 1 Cor. 11:26.

While we know that the New Testament does not authorize observing specific days such as Easter and Christmas, what about church dramas in general? Are they scriptural or just another worldly way to entertain the crowds?
Drama: Drama is a term generally used to refer to a literary form involving parts written for actors to perform. Dramas can be performed in a variety of media: live performance, film, or television. "Closet dramas" are works written in the same form as plays (with dialogue, scenes, and "stage directions"), but meant to be read rather than staged; examples include the plays of Seneca, Manfred by George Gordon Byron, and Prometheus Unbound by Percy Bysshe Shelley. ...

Question to ponder: Do you really think the Bible was written for actors?

the above definition was taken from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drama

Judge Knott
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

January 20th, 2007, 9:34 pm #5

Some people maintain that baptism and the Lord's Supper are forms of "drama," because baptism "acts out" the Lord's death, and the Lord's Supper "shows" the Lord's death until He returns. These people further maintain that all who participate in baptism and the Lord's Supper are "actors." And still others go so far as to say that Jesus' miracles were also "dramas." If so, then Jesus was likewise an "actor." Through such arguments, people attempt to justify conventional stage productions or "dramas" in their churches, especially at Christmas and Easter, and cite passages like 1 Cor. 11:26.

While we know that the New Testament does not authorize observing specific days such as Easter and Christmas, what about church dramas in general? Are they scriptural or just another worldly way to entertain the crowds?
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>The “DRAMA MINISTRY” at Madison continues. The Marcher (12.24.06) has this announcement:
  • Throughout the year, Madison’s drama ministry works to provide Christian entertainment with a message, and it’s a great way to invite unchurched people to visit Madison. The ministry includes not only actors and actresses, but also seamstresses, set builders, artists, promotion assistance and more. If you would like to learn more about the drama ministry, contact Kelley Hughes at 860-3299.”
Who coined the expression “the unchurched”? Does the origin of the expression need to be researched? Or, is it obvious whence it came? “Where have all the gospel meetings gone … long time passing?”

Donnie</font>
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

January 21st, 2007, 4:22 am #6

Some people maintain that baptism and the Lord's Supper are forms of "drama," because baptism "acts out" the Lord's death, and the Lord's Supper "shows" the Lord's death until He returns. These people further maintain that all who participate in baptism and the Lord's Supper are "actors." And still others go so far as to say that Jesus' miracles were also "dramas." If so, then Jesus was likewise an "actor." Through such arguments, people attempt to justify conventional stage productions or "dramas" in their churches, especially at Christmas and Easter, and cite passages like 1 Cor. 11:26.

While we know that the New Testament does not authorize observing specific days such as Easter and Christmas, what about church dramas in general? Are they scriptural or just another worldly way to entertain the crowds?
Paul's only "worship" words speak of GIVING HEED to God through HIS Words "as they have been taught." You can speak that or see it in print in various forms. However, no one can be a rhetorician, singers, musician, dancer or actor without falling under Jesus identification of them as belonging to the SECTARIAN HYPOCRITES as He pointed to Isaiah and Ezekiel. When the focus is put on the looks, talent, voice, movements or acting skills you DEFACT worship that dramatic event because you GIVE HEED TO IT and cannot (cannot) give Heed to Jesus and HIS words at the same time.

The Zoe Group had to bring in an expert to debunk the Platonic Fallacy. That includes the universally known connection between music, theatrical performance and gender bias. Even when males had to perform the female roles Plato warned against GENDER BLEED.

Second, if you believe those olden scholars, Paul outlawed any kind of arousal singing or theatrical rhetoric which would create the "spiritual anxiety through religious rituals" which Jesus died to FREE us from: the laded burden. Why not: that was the LAW for the "church in the wilderness."

<font color=blue>Rom 15:1 WE then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

Aresko<> (g700) ar-es'-ko; prob. from 142 (through the idea of exciting emotion); to be agreeable (or by impl. to seek to be so): - please.
Airo (h142) ah'ee-ro; a prim. verb; to lift; by impl. to take up or away; fig. to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); spec. to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Heb. [comp. 5375] to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).</font>

That is the LADED BURDEN Jesus outlawed along with the "doctors of the Law who take awway the key to knowledge."

Paul warned that this was the REPROACHES prophesied upon Jesus which meant too "make Him naked" among other things. This had the same meaning of EXTERNAL SINGING:

<font color=blue> Aoidê 1. art of song, autar aoidên thespesiên, spell, incantation, thing sung, song, whether of joy or sorrow,</font>

John confirms the univerals Greek and Latin understanding that arousal singing was witchcrafte or SORCERY (Rev 18) which defined the AGENTS of the Mother of Harlots (Rev 17). Why would anyone LUST to do that? All of the pagan worship music intended to induce FEAR or PANIC: that is why the Apollo or Apollyon of Revelation is known ad Phoebus or FEAR. You cannot AROUSE people's emotions without inducing fear: especially if you claim to be Jesus leading them into the presence of God.

<font color=blue> Areskos [g142] A. pleasing, mostly in bad sense, obsequious, cringing, II. areskos, ho, the staff borne by pornoboskoi [brothel keeper] on the stage, Poll.4.120.

Hairetikos (g141) hahee-ret-ee-kos'; from the same as 140; a schismatic: - heretic [the Gr. word itself].
A man that is an heretick, after the first and second admonition reject; Tit.3:10</font>

All of the performing arts were used by the DEMAGOGUE in order to appease the crowds to pick their pockets. This is important to know about the DELIBERATE HERETICS: it is not possible to introduce instruments into a peaceable church WITHOUT knowing that you are DELIBERATELY SOWING DISCORD. That is why they are called the CROOKED GENERATION or Generation of VIPERS. They can lie to your face and get away with it because they can transmorgify into an ANGEL OF LIGHT. This also points directly to APOLLO who could convert himself into a musical dolphin to TAKE CAPTIVE ministers from other shrines and lead them Delphi where they were given a knife to slaughter as many SHEEP as they wished.

The same word in the Latin Version SPECIFICIALLY outlaws ALL that the PERFORMING ARTS which is a DEFACTO telling Jesus Christ that HIS words do not have the POWER to achieve THEIR PURPOSE: but THEIR purpose is clearly NOT the purpose of God for the EKKLESIA for EDUCATION ONLY.

<font color=purple>XV. debemus autem nos firmiores inbecillitates infirmorum sustinere et non nobis placere

Placeo to please, to be pleasing or agreeable, to be welcome, acceptable, to satisfy (class.).
1. In scenic lang., of players or pieces presented, to please, find favor, give satisfaction: scenico placenti

Scaenicus I. of or belonging to the stage, scenic, dramatic, theatrical
I. Lit.: poëtae, dramatic poets, ludi, stage-plays, theatrical representations, : fabula, a drama,

Organa, modulatio Comedy. Orator
A. instrument, implement, tool, for making or doing a thing
3.musical instrument,of the pipe
  • Poi-êtês II. composer of a poem, author, p. kômôidias Pl.Lg.935e; p. kainôn dramatôn, b. composer of music, 2. author of a speech
Organum Vitr. 10, 1.--Of musical instruments, a pipe,. Gen. 4, 21; id. 2 Par. 34, 12 -Of hydraulic engines, an organ, water-organ: organa hydraulica,
  • Gen 4:21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
    H8610 manipulate, figuratively to use unwarrantably:--catch, handle, (lay, take) hold (on, over), stop, X surely, surprise, take.
    H8608 taphaph to drum, that is, play (as) on the tambourine:taber, play with timbrels.
    H8611 tôpheth to'-feth From the base of H8608 ; a smiting, that is, (figuratively) contempt:--tabret. MEANING HELL
Organon , to, ( [ergon, erdô] ) I. an implement, instrument, engine of any kind (mostly post-Aug.), Col. 3, 13, 12.--Of military or architectonic engines (whereas machina denotes one of a larger size and more complicated construction)
  • FOR DOING HARD WORK: Ergon [Ergô] I.work, 1. in Il. mostly of deeds of war, polemêïaerga, 3.a hard piece of work, a hard task, Il.: also, a shocking deed or act,
Modulatio. In partic., a rhythmical measure, modulation; hence, singing and playing, melody, in poetry and music, Quint. 9, 4, 139: modulatione produci aut corripi (verba), id. 9, 4, 89 : modulatio pedum, id. 1, 6, 2 : scenica, id. 11, 3, 57 : vocis, melody, id. 11, 3, 59 : musica, Aus. Ep. 25, 13 .
  • Clement of Alexandria: "After having paid reverence to the discourse about God, they leave within [at church] what they have heard. And outside they foolishly amuse themselves with impious playing, and amatory quavering (feminine vibrato), occupied with flute-playing, and dancing, and intoxication, and all kinds of trash.
</font><font color=red>ON THE VERY LARGE OTHER HAND:</font>

<font color=blue>Please for Edification or Education:

A.To take a thing by hearing, i. e., 1.To hear, to perceive, to observe, to learn (cf. opp. do = I give in words, i. e. I say): hoc simul accipe dictum, 2.To comprehend or understand any thing communicated 3. With the accessory idea of judging, to take a thing thus or thus, to interpret or explain</font>

What is it about SPEAK cannot the sowers of discord NOT UNDERSTAND. Really, people, do you you need to PROCURE a PhDuh, to lie TO God and lie ABOUT God.
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Joe Spivy
Joe Spivy

January 21st, 2007, 12:55 pm #7

Drama: Drama is a term generally used to refer to a literary form involving parts written for actors to perform. Dramas can be performed in a variety of media: live performance, film, or television. "Closet dramas" are works written in the same form as plays (with dialogue, scenes, and "stage directions"), but meant to be read rather than staged; examples include the plays of Seneca, Manfred by George Gordon Byron, and Prometheus Unbound by Percy Bysshe Shelley. ...

Question to ponder: Do you really think the Bible was written for actors?

the above definition was taken from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drama

Judge Knott
Judge Knott asks, "Do you really think the Bible was written for actors?"

Just a question: Have you considered the book of Song of Solomon (Song of Songs)?
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TMP
TMP

January 21st, 2007, 6:06 pm #8

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>The “DRAMA MINISTRY” at Madison continues. The Marcher (12.24.06) has this announcement:
  • Throughout the year, Madison’s drama ministry works to provide Christian entertainment with a message, and it’s a great way to invite unchurched people to visit Madison. The ministry includes not only actors and actresses, but also seamstresses, set builders, artists, promotion assistance and more. If you would like to learn more about the drama ministry, contact Kelley Hughes at 860-3299.”
Who coined the expression “the unchurched”? Does the origin of the expression need to be researched? Or, is it obvious whence it came? “Where have all the gospel meetings gone … long time passing?”

Donnie</font>
So where does the term "Gospel Meeting" come from? Do we need to research that? Today's drama is an effort to reach people outside the church (or unchurched) much like the Gospel Meeting of time ago. Just like in the 50's and 60's you might be able to convince someone to come to a gospel meeting that wouldn't come to Sunday morning, the same holds true of the drama presentation. Half the people that come to our dramas at church don't attend our church regularly. And as you know, just getting them in the door once is a huge step. However, in today's culture, the odds of you getting that kind of result with a gospel meeting is slim to none. Do we just sentence those people to hell and keep with a good but dated tradition?
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TMP
TMP

January 22nd, 2007, 4:48 am #9

Paul's only "worship" words speak of GIVING HEED to God through HIS Words "as they have been taught." You can speak that or see it in print in various forms. However, no one can be a rhetorician, singers, musician, dancer or actor without falling under Jesus identification of them as belonging to the SECTARIAN HYPOCRITES as He pointed to Isaiah and Ezekiel. When the focus is put on the looks, talent, voice, movements or acting skills you DEFACT worship that dramatic event because you GIVE HEED TO IT and cannot (cannot) give Heed to Jesus and HIS words at the same time.

The Zoe Group had to bring in an expert to debunk the Platonic Fallacy. That includes the universally known connection between music, theatrical performance and gender bias. Even when males had to perform the female roles Plato warned against GENDER BLEED.

Second, if you believe those olden scholars, Paul outlawed any kind of arousal singing or theatrical rhetoric which would create the "spiritual anxiety through religious rituals" which Jesus died to FREE us from: the laded burden. Why not: that was the LAW for the "church in the wilderness."

<font color=blue>Rom 15:1 WE then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

Aresko<> (g700) ar-es'-ko; prob. from 142 (through the idea of exciting emotion); to be agreeable (or by impl. to seek to be so): - please.
Airo (h142) ah'ee-ro; a prim. verb; to lift; by impl. to take up or away; fig. to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); spec. to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Heb. [comp. 5375] to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).</font>

That is the LADED BURDEN Jesus outlawed along with the "doctors of the Law who take awway the key to knowledge."

Paul warned that this was the REPROACHES prophesied upon Jesus which meant too "make Him naked" among other things. This had the same meaning of EXTERNAL SINGING:

<font color=blue> Aoidê 1. art of song, autar aoidên thespesiên, spell, incantation, thing sung, song, whether of joy or sorrow,</font>

John confirms the univerals Greek and Latin understanding that arousal singing was witchcrafte or SORCERY (Rev 18) which defined the AGENTS of the Mother of Harlots (Rev 17). Why would anyone LUST to do that? All of the pagan worship music intended to induce FEAR or PANIC: that is why the Apollo or Apollyon of Revelation is known ad Phoebus or FEAR. You cannot AROUSE people's emotions without inducing fear: especially if you claim to be Jesus leading them into the presence of God.

<font color=blue> Areskos [g142] A. pleasing, mostly in bad sense, obsequious, cringing, II. areskos, ho, the staff borne by pornoboskoi [brothel keeper] on the stage, Poll.4.120.

Hairetikos (g141) hahee-ret-ee-kos'; from the same as 140; a schismatic: - heretic [the Gr. word itself].
A man that is an heretick, after the first and second admonition reject; Tit.3:10</font>

All of the performing arts were used by the DEMAGOGUE in order to appease the crowds to pick their pockets. This is important to know about the DELIBERATE HERETICS: it is not possible to introduce instruments into a peaceable church WITHOUT knowing that you are DELIBERATELY SOWING DISCORD. That is why they are called the CROOKED GENERATION or Generation of VIPERS. They can lie to your face and get away with it because they can transmorgify into an ANGEL OF LIGHT. This also points directly to APOLLO who could convert himself into a musical dolphin to TAKE CAPTIVE ministers from other shrines and lead them Delphi where they were given a knife to slaughter as many SHEEP as they wished.

The same word in the Latin Version SPECIFICIALLY outlaws ALL that the PERFORMING ARTS which is a DEFACTO telling Jesus Christ that HIS words do not have the POWER to achieve THEIR PURPOSE: but THEIR purpose is clearly NOT the purpose of God for the EKKLESIA for EDUCATION ONLY.

<font color=purple>XV. debemus autem nos firmiores inbecillitates infirmorum sustinere et non nobis placere

Placeo to please, to be pleasing or agreeable, to be welcome, acceptable, to satisfy (class.).
1. In scenic lang., of players or pieces presented, to please, find favor, give satisfaction: scenico placenti

Scaenicus I. of or belonging to the stage, scenic, dramatic, theatrical
I. Lit.: poëtae, dramatic poets, ludi, stage-plays, theatrical representations, : fabula, a drama,

Organa, modulatio Comedy. Orator
A. instrument, implement, tool, for making or doing a thing
3.musical instrument,of the pipe
  • Poi-êtês II. composer of a poem, author, p. kômôidias Pl.Lg.935e; p. kainôn dramatôn, b. composer of music, 2. author of a speech
Organum Vitr. 10, 1.--Of musical instruments, a pipe,. Gen. 4, 21; id. 2 Par. 34, 12 -Of hydraulic engines, an organ, water-organ: organa hydraulica,
  • Gen 4:21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
    H8610 manipulate, figuratively to use unwarrantably:--catch, handle, (lay, take) hold (on, over), stop, X surely, surprise, take.
    H8608 taphaph to drum, that is, play (as) on the tambourine:taber, play with timbrels.
    H8611 tôpheth to'-feth From the base of H8608 ; a smiting, that is, (figuratively) contempt:--tabret. MEANING HELL
Organon , to, ( [ergon, erdô] ) I. an implement, instrument, engine of any kind (mostly post-Aug.), Col. 3, 13, 12.--Of military or architectonic engines (whereas machina denotes one of a larger size and more complicated construction)
  • FOR DOING HARD WORK: Ergon [Ergô] I.work, 1. in Il. mostly of deeds of war, polemêïaerga, 3.a hard piece of work, a hard task, Il.: also, a shocking deed or act,
Modulatio. In partic., a rhythmical measure, modulation; hence, singing and playing, melody, in poetry and music, Quint. 9, 4, 139: modulatione produci aut corripi (verba), id. 9, 4, 89 : modulatio pedum, id. 1, 6, 2 : scenica, id. 11, 3, 57 : vocis, melody, id. 11, 3, 59 : musica, Aus. Ep. 25, 13 .
  • Clement of Alexandria: "After having paid reverence to the discourse about God, they leave within [at church] what they have heard. And outside they foolishly amuse themselves with impious playing, and amatory quavering (feminine vibrato), occupied with flute-playing, and dancing, and intoxication, and all kinds of trash.
</font><font color=red>ON THE VERY LARGE OTHER HAND:</font>

<font color=blue>Please for Edification or Education:

A.To take a thing by hearing, i. e., 1.To hear, to perceive, to observe, to learn (cf. opp. do = I give in words, i. e. I say): hoc simul accipe dictum, 2.To comprehend or understand any thing communicated 3. With the accessory idea of judging, to take a thing thus or thus, to interpret or explain</font>

What is it about SPEAK cannot the sowers of discord NOT UNDERSTAND. Really, people, do you you need to PROCURE a PhDuh, to lie TO God and lie ABOUT God.
Ken,

It doesn't take a PhDuh, as you put it, to realize your argument makes no sense. I would like to actually carry on a true debate, but I know you can't limit your responses to the actual questions at hand and you must always put in an insult or two, so why even make the effort.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

January 22nd, 2007, 6:12 am #10

So where does the term "Gospel Meeting" come from? Do we need to research that? Today's drama is an effort to reach people outside the church (or unchurched) much like the Gospel Meeting of time ago. Just like in the 50's and 60's you might be able to convince someone to come to a gospel meeting that wouldn't come to Sunday morning, the same holds true of the drama presentation. Half the people that come to our dramas at church don't attend our church regularly. And as you know, just getting them in the door once is a huge step. However, in today's culture, the odds of you getting that kind of result with a gospel meeting is slim to none. Do we just sentence those people to hell and keep with a good but dated tradition?
Consider the first-century example of Christ and His preaching. Christ never utilized a troupe of actors singing and dancing on a stage to draw people to Him, though popular entertainment was readily available at the time. Likewise, He never utilized elaborate costumes and sets, but instead He utilized and preached the pure Word of God, the message of the Gospel, as a drawing card.

Sure, some people have tried to equate Christ's miracles as "drama productions," but that merely cheapens a tool that Christ used to prove His divinity. Today, Christ's divinity has long been established and no longer needs to be proven.

On other threads, I've posed this situation: Two similar churches start out alike by preaching the Word without frills. Their membership number is also similar. Later, church 1 adds showbiz entertainment, instrumental music, and drama, whereas church 2 just simply continues to preach the Word without frills. The membership at church 1 grows exponentially as many people from other churches pile in, whereas the membership at church 2 falls because some people leave there and go over to church 1.

Why did church 1 "grow" so quickly and why did the membership at church 2 begin to fall? The Word was preached at BOTH. The obvious reason is that people thirsted not for the Word of God but for the entertainment and thrills offered at church 1. Why else would they leave church 2 for church 1?

The bottom line is that church drama is merely a form of entertainment that can never replace preaching the pure Word of God. Moreover, drama contributes to churches the look and feel of performing arts centers and hence makes the Church more like the world. The Church is to remain apart from the ways of the world (James 4:4; 1 John 2:15).
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