Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 10th, 2013, 8:21 am #21

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]I believe that what is referred to in Scripture as "the holy spirit" is God's [HIS] own holy spirit -- not the devil's spirit, not man's spirit. Ephesians 4:30 tells you and me that we are to "grieve not the holy Spirit of God." (We just cannot ignore that preposition "OF," can we, Bill? WHOSE "spirit" is it? Yours? I think not! Mine? I think not! Oh, it must be "the spirit" which is HOLY -- and that "holy spirit" belongs to God.)

I also maintain that the Trinity Creed's claim that the "third-person" Holy Spirit is God is false and that "He, the Holy Spirit" does not exist as a Third Person God.

It is clear to me based on what the Scripture tells me that there is a colossal difference between:

(1) SCRIPTURE -- That "the holy spirit" is God's spirit which is holy
------------------- versus --------------------
(2) TRINITY -- That "The Holy Spirit" (a separate Being) is God

All I'm saying is that in ALL of Paul's salutations:
--------(1) God the Father is addressed;
--------------------- and --------------------
--------(2) the Lord Jesus Christ, His Son, is addressed.

The "Holy Spirit" is NOT addressed in the salutations. I don't think that Paul had a memory lapse [a senior moment] in each of those instances. If Paul were a Trinitarian apostle, he would have never failed to address the various churches and individuals EVERY TIME, as follows:

Grace be to you, and peace:
---------- (1) From God the Father,
---------- (2) From the Lord Jesus Christ
--------------------- and ------------------
---------- (3) From the Holy Spirit (Trinity's ADDITION)


That the "Holy Spirit" ("person" or not) is not mentioned in all of the salutations is TRUTH -- it is NOT an assumption. [/color]
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A-Won
A-Won

August 10th, 2013, 8:10 pm #22

>
Douay-Rheims Bible

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Evil in the Last Days

1Know also this, that, in the last days, shall come dangerous times. 2Men shall be lovers of themselves, covetous, haughty, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, wicked, 3Without affection, without peace, slanderers, incontinent, unmerciful, without kindness, 4Traitors, stubborn, puffed up, and lovers of pleasures more than of God: 5Having an appearance indeed of godliness, but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid. 6For of these sort are they who creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, who are led away with divers desires: 7Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Mambres resisted Moses, so these also resist the truth, men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no farther; for their folly shall be manifest to all men, as theirs also was.

All Scripture is God-Breathed

10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, patience, 11Persecutions, afflictions: such as came upon me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra: what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12And all that will live godly in Christ Jesus, shall suffer persecution. 13But evil men and seducers shall grow worse and worse: erring, and driving into error. 14But continue thou in those things which thou hast learned, and which have been committed to thee: knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.


***************************

Donnie, I'm NOT seeing a DRB bail-out for you.

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 10th, 2013, 8:43 pm #23

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]A-Won,

Bro, "no comprende." That you cited my favorite passages.

Don't you agree with the passages I quoted from the Scripture regarding Paul's salutations?

Feel free to join the discourse. [/color]
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Scripture
Scripture

August 10th, 2013, 9:47 pm #24

Interesting that in verse 16, 2 Timothy 3, it says that Scriptures are "God-breathed", or "God-Spirited." Spirit=="pneuma"

In the verse 7, 2 Timothy 3, it says that some are "ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth." Knowledge is critical in the Christian life, in that it allows faith, and that faith forms in our knowing the love of God as shown in Christ's sacrifice for us. In other words, knowledge of God's love outpoured in the sacrifice of the cross, grants us faith in God, and all these truths are revealed in Scripture.

"God breathes", or "His Spirit shows". As we know not where the wind ("pneuma") comes from, neither do we know the exact circumstances the full details of the motivations of being born of the Spirit. John 3:8.

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Bill
Bill

August 10th, 2013, 10:57 pm #25

Where the Bible speaks we speak. God never speaks by what He does not say.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
.....and one mediator between God and men,
.....the man Christ Jesus;

That DOES say that there is not A Holy Spirit PEOPLE who mediates between man and God.
God communicates by His breath (spirit). Certainly He is just as powerful as we His creature in His Image.

Christ or the Messiah came FULLY in the flesh. If Jesus as the ARTICULATED WORD of God was not a member of a POLYTHEISTIC GOD FAMILY then the BREATH [Spirit means breath] was not a member of a trinitarian family. The ONE God says classical trinitarians always had His Breath and His Word with Him.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
.....that God hath made that same Jesus,
whom ye have crucified,
.....both Lord and Christ.

Jesus was not Lord [kurios] and Christ until God [Theos] made Him to be.

Jesus in His post-glorified state IS The Holy Spirit Comforter. He is King and High Priest and therefore there can be NO OTHER Spirit other than the MIND of Christ. He promised to guide the Apostles (only) into all truth. When the "parts" were left for our memory anyone who goes beyond is called a false teacher.

As the PARTS are finished as REVEALED to the apostles, The Holy Spirit disappears and men like Paul who could see AND hear and the other writers leave us with what Donnie has shown in blue and white,

There is the ONE God [Theos] the Father
And One Son Jesus of Nazareth as Lord (Kurios)
To claim that either the ONE AND ONLY GOD or His LORD with ALL power needs an imagined Holy Spirit person (rather than the Spirit OF God) is, according to John, the sign of AntiChrist.

Right. God does not speak by what He does not say. We msut go by what God SAYS. We must do the same with Paul. We cannot assume Paul means something by what he does NOT say. Paul says nothing about the Holy Spirit in his salutations. Therefore, we cannot, MUST NOT, jump to the conclusion that Paul does not regard the Holy Spirit as a "person."
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 11th, 2013, 8:12 pm #26

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

That's exactly the premise of this thread -- that in the 20 salutations (from Romans, the Corinthians to Jude) and the references in the Gospel of John and other NT books:

... God's [HIS] own holy spirit is NOT addressed -- MISSING
... God the Father is addressed
... The Lord Jesus Christ, His Son, is addressed.

What the apostle Paul does not say, we simply can not and must not authorize ourselves to say it.

You said it yourself: "... Paul says nothing about the Holy Spirit in his salutations."

How true!!!

These are salutations! PERSONAL salutations to churches and individuals. In our culture, as probably it was in apostolic times, you would not want to miss anyone among the FEW in the group being introduced. Paul did not have a "senior moment" in each of the salutation instances. He was confident!

Paul was certainly not a Trinitarian apostle. He matched his teaching in the salutations with that about "the Godhead." Please NOTE in Colossians 2:1-10 --[/color]
[color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]... That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ... As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him ... Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ ... For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead[/color] bodily.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]We should just leave Paul's message alone. HE DID NOT ADD ANOTHER DIVINE BEING TO THE GODHEAD -- comprised of the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, His Son.

We should also let the Scripture speak for "the holy Spirit OF the living God [or Jesus Christ the Lord or the Father]. The holy Spirit belongs to God.

The Trinity Creed is responsible for ADDING a divine Being it calls the Third Person.[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 11th, 2013, 8:28 pm #27

Paul said nothing about A Holy Spirit but we cannot assume that Paul said nothing about a Holy Spirit.

Maybe he WANTED to say something about A holy spirit but said nothing assuming that we would figure out the Trinitarian Creed which denies

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

But, Paul did not say THERE ARE NOT TWO Gods so why should I assume that there not be two gods.

God is a Theos but Jesus is a Kurios and God MADE HIM TO BE both Lord and Christ.
As mediator he must be man. If He was and is MAN then Jesus is not God so we have to eleminate Him from the TRINITY. People deprive Jesus of His work and authority when they try to make Him into a God People.

The WORD was God and God creates all things by HIS WORD(s). Jesus ARTICULATED the WORD and therefore is the instrumental means of God's power. That is why people who do not teach that which is written for our learning are NOT connected to the Flow of Information. And if they SELL their own body talents and speak their own words then Paul and the Greeks calls him a prostitute. It really doesn't mater which BODY PART you sell if you think your talent delivers the power of the Word.
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A-Won
A-Won

August 11th, 2013, 8:51 pm #28

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

That's exactly the premise of this thread -- that in the 20 salutations (from Romans, the Corinthians to Jude) and the references in the Gospel of John and other NT books:

... God's [HIS] own holy spirit is NOT addressed -- MISSING
... God the Father is addressed
... The Lord Jesus Christ, His Son, is addressed.

What the apostle Paul does not say, we simply can not and must not authorize ourselves to say it.

You said it yourself: "... Paul says nothing about the Holy Spirit in his salutations."

How true!!!

These are salutations! PERSONAL salutations to churches and individuals. In our culture, as probably it was in apostolic times, you would not want to miss anyone among the FEW in the group being introduced. Paul did not have a "senior moment" in each of the salutation instances. He was confident!

Paul was certainly not a Trinitarian apostle. He matched his teaching in the salutations with that about "the Godhead." Please NOTE in Colossians 2:1-10 --[/color]
[color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]... That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ... As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him ... Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ ... For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead[/color] bodily.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]We should just leave Paul's message alone. HE DID NOT ADD ANOTHER DIVINE BEING TO THE GODHEAD -- comprised of the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, His Son.

We should also let the Scripture speak for "the holy Spirit OF the living God [or Jesus Christ the Lord or the Father]. The holy Spirit belongs to God.

The Trinity Creed is responsible for ADDING a divine Being it calls the Third Person.[/color]
I am interested in how far Donnie will venture with this Baptist style of argument. (Opps, did I say that? ) Donnie knows full well that ALL the scripture on the Holy Spirit must be considered.
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Bill
Bill

August 11th, 2013, 9:16 pm #29

You cannot use Paul's salutations as Scripture for deciding whether or not the Holy Spirit is a "person," because Paul's salutations say NOTHING about the Holy Spirit one way or another.
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Bill
Bill

August 11th, 2013, 10:47 pm #30

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]There are almost a hundred references to "the spirit OF..." throughout the Bible. Here's the list from another thread:[/color]
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord (26 references in O.T.; Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; 8:39; II Cor. 3:17,18)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God (14 references in O.T.; 12 references in N.T.)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF our God (I Cor. 6:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God (II Cor. 3:3)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Peter 1:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him (Rom. 8:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord God (Isa. 61:1)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son (Gal. 4:6)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God (Eph. 4:30)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you (Rom. 8:11; I Cor. 2:10; I John 4:13)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS holy Spirit (Isa. 63:10,11; I Thess. 4:8)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him that raised up Jesus (Rom. 8:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit which is OF God (I Cor. 2:12) </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The above references clearly indicate to me, as one theologian says, that the Holy Spirit is "not an independent entity alongside God, but the evidence of God's active presence in the world." We've dealt very extensively with the significance of the preposition "OF" to indicate ownership or belongingness or possession. [/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]There was no debate in O.T. times about the Trinity. Period.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]There was no debate among the 1st century Christians about the Trinity -- but since the Trinity Creed was invented, there has been more debate.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Jews don't capitalize "holy spirit" or "spirit" -- it does not refer to a person.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The Hebrew and Greek languages did not have upper and lower case when the earliest biblical manuscripts were written.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Capitalization is merely interpretation of Trinity-influenced translators.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Pronoun gender (he or it) in Greek is irrelevant -- strictly a "theological" decision.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The New Testament NEVER identifies "the Holy Spirit" as God.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The Spirit of God is to God what the spirit of man is to man.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]"'Spirit of God' in Judaism denoted the power of God."[/color]</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The New Testament speaks of the GODHEAD (not Trinity) in the following manner (cf. Colossians 2:1-9): [/color]
  • [2] That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
    </li>
  • [3] In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
    </li>
  • [6] As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
    </li>
  • [7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
    </li>
  • [8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    </li>
  • [9] For in him [the Lord Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of THE GODHEAD bodily.</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Now, Paul's and other writers' salutations in the following epistles:[/color]
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]ROMANS------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:7)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I CORINTHIANS-----: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II CORINTHIANS----: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, (1:2,3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]GALATIANS---------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) ... unto the churches of Galatia: Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, (1:1-3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]EPHESIANS---------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]PHILIPPIANS-------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]COLOSSIANS--------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1:2,3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I THESSALONIANS---: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:1)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II THESSALONIANS--: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I TIMOTHY---------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II TIMOTHY--------: [/color]
    <blockquote>To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]TITUS-------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. (1:4)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]PHILEMON----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]HEBREWS-----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (1:5)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]JAMES-------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (1:1)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I PETER-----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II PETER----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I JOHN------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>... and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II JOHN-----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]JUDE--------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: (1:1)
    </blockquote></li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Paul and the other apostles/writers do not mention "the Holy Spirit." This absence suggests that Paul and the others did not regard the Holy Spirit as a person.[/color]
According to Donnie, "Paul and the other apostles/writers do not mention 'the Holy Spirit' [in their salutations]. This absence suggests that Paul and the others did not regard the Holy Spirit as a person." Actually, one apostle DOES mention the Holy Spirit in his salutation.

But first, let's examine the "opposite end" of Donnie's reasoning. If an apostle mentions the Holy Spirit in any of his salutations, it would suggest that apostle regarded the Holy Spirit as a person. Now observe the complete salutation to Peter's first epistle:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Peter 1:1-2 KJV).

Whereas Paul does not mention the Holy Spirit in his salutations, Peter DOES mention the [Holy] Spirit in the salutation to his first epistle. Does that REALLY mean Peter regards the Holy Spirit as a "person" but Paul does not? Anything we say about that, one way or another, would be pure conjecture; it would simply be our personal opinion, based on our bias about whether or not we regard the Holy Spirit as a "person." Therefore, we must not make rash statements or draw improper conclusions about the Holy Spirit based what we would have Peter, Paul, or any of the other apostles say or mean in their salutations.
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