Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

Bill
Bill

August 8th, 2013, 7:10 pm #11

[. . .]

========================

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Please initiate a thread that will discuss your concerns, complaints or suggestions. It's been a while since you started a new thread. It may not be about a particular doctrine, but it will be published.

Now ... I believe that will relieve you of having to address the issue of why Paul and others did not include the Trinity's Third Person "Holy Spirit" in his PERSONAL salutations to Christian churches and individuals. The greetings always included: (1) God the Father and (2) the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do not recall this matter (Paul's salutations to churches and individuals devoid of the Trinity concept) being brought up before. This is new stuff, Bill.[/color]

[ . . . ]
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on August 9th, 2013, 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 9th, 2013, 2:41 am #12

"Ready to publish when a substantive discussion resumes.


That is assuming that there was a substantive discussion in the first place.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The above exemplifies a non-substantive post -- published to illustrate the point.

Where's "the beef"?[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 9th, 2013, 3:28 am #13

[ . . . ]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

It appears that you have just now noticed Paul's "salutations that omit the Holy Spirit" [your words]. Did you "speed-read" or skip those 20 passages earlier?

Yet I did not see a single argument from you ... for or against.

Would you like to initiate a thread concerning your guide to: "How to Avoid Duplication of 'New-But-Really-Not_New' Threads"? Let's not disappoint those who might be interested to know about your 132-word guide. By the way, I saved a copy of your post. Let me know if you need a copy.[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 9th, 2013, 4:18 am #14

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The above exemplifies a non-substantive post -- published to illustrate the point.

Where's "the beef"?[/color]
Maybe you need to start a new thread on the trinity: there doesn't seem any way to keep threads uncontaminated from yo-yo heads.
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Bill
Bill

August 9th, 2013, 2:39 pm #15

[. . .]
[. . .]
[. . .]
[. . .]
[. . .]

=================

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ready to publish when a substantive discussion resumes.[/color]
By "substantive discussion," Donnie means [... ... ...]



================
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Bill, your response once again is far from being substantive and conducive to learning. I think we have created a number of threads that serve as a venting mechanism for those who have difficulty focusing on specific issues and matters at hand.[/color]
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on August 10th, 2013, 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill
Bill

August 9th, 2013, 4:52 pm #16

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]There are almost a hundred references to "the spirit OF..." throughout the Bible. Here's the list from another thread:[/color]
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord (26 references in O.T.; Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; 8:39; II Cor. 3:17,18)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God (14 references in O.T.; 12 references in N.T.)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF our God (I Cor. 6:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God (II Cor. 3:3)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Peter 1:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him (Rom. 8:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord God (Isa. 61:1)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son (Gal. 4:6)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God (Eph. 4:30)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you (Rom. 8:11; I Cor. 2:10; I John 4:13)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS holy Spirit (Isa. 63:10,11; I Thess. 4:8)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him that raised up Jesus (Rom. 8:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit which is OF God (I Cor. 2:12) </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The above references clearly indicate to me, as one theologian says, that the Holy Spirit is "not an independent entity alongside God, but the evidence of God's active presence in the world." We've dealt very extensively with the significance of the preposition "OF" to indicate ownership or belongingness or possession. [/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]There was no debate in O.T. times about the Trinity. Period.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]There was no debate among the 1st century Christians about the Trinity -- but since the Trinity Creed was invented, there has been more debate.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Jews don't capitalize "holy spirit" or "spirit" -- it does not refer to a person.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The Hebrew and Greek languages did not have upper and lower case when the earliest biblical manuscripts were written.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Capitalization is merely interpretation of Trinity-influenced translators.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Pronoun gender (he or it) in Greek is irrelevant -- strictly a "theological" decision.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The New Testament NEVER identifies "the Holy Spirit" as God.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The Spirit of God is to God what the spirit of man is to man.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]"'Spirit of God' in Judaism denoted the power of God."[/color]</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The New Testament speaks of the GODHEAD (not Trinity) in the following manner (cf. Colossians 2:1-9): [/color]
  • [2] That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
    </li>
  • [3] In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
    </li>
  • [6] As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
    </li>
  • [7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
    </li>
  • [8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    </li>
  • [9] For in him [the Lord Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of THE GODHEAD bodily.</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Now, Paul's and other writers' salutations in the following epistles:[/color]
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]ROMANS------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:7)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I CORINTHIANS-----: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II CORINTHIANS----: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, (1:2,3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]GALATIANS---------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) ... unto the churches of Galatia: Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, (1:1-3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]EPHESIANS---------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]PHILIPPIANS-------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]COLOSSIANS--------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1:2,3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I THESSALONIANS---: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:1)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II THESSALONIANS--: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I TIMOTHY---------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II TIMOTHY--------: [/color]
    <blockquote>To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]TITUS-------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. (1:4)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]PHILEMON----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]HEBREWS-----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (1:5)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]JAMES-------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (1:1)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I PETER-----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II PETER----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I JOHN------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>... and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II JOHN-----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]JUDE--------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: (1:1)
    </blockquote></li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Paul and the other apostles/writers do not mention "the Holy Spirit." This absence suggests that Paul and the others did not regard the Holy Spirit as a person.[/color]
Donnie, you're "suggesting" that Paul's omission of the Holy Spirit in his salutations indicates the Holy Spirit is not a "third person," let alone a "person." In your lead post, you even rely on some nameless "theologian" who supports your idea. Your premise is merely conjecture, an assumption. You assume that because Paul's salutations omit the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit is not a "person." Paul's salutations mention nothing of the kind, one way or another.

I could make a similar assumption if I posed the premise that Paul omitted the Holy Spirit in his salutations because he believed the Holy Spirit had less authority than God and Christ.

Paul's salutations do not say that the Holy Spirit is a person; they also do not say that the Holy Spirit is not a person. Therefore, we must guard against making rash conjectures and assumptions about the Holy Spirit based on Paul's salutations or based on what we WANT any of the apostles to say about the Holy Spirit. We must guard against using Paul or the other apostles to go out on a thin limb to "justify" our personal perceptions of the Holy Spirit.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 9th, 2013, 8:22 pm #17

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The above exemplifies a non-substantive post -- published to illustrate the point.

Where's "the beef"?[/color]
Paul never uses "spirit" to mean a PEOPLE: the word does not permit it.
In 1 Corinthians 2 for US The Holy Spirit is the MIND OF CHRIST. A mind is a spirit: a mind is never disconnected from the persson.

Our UNholy spirit becomes A holy spirit when is baptized requesting the remission of sins. People with A holy spirit or A good conscience, consciousness or a co-perception are informed and are able to read black text on white paper. HOLY is never a first name of a people. Spirit applied to God means BREATH: when applied to silly people it means FLATULENCE.

Last edited by Ken.Sublett on August 9th, 2013, 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 10th, 2013, 2:01 am #18

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]There are almost a hundred references to "the spirit OF..." throughout the Bible. Here's the list from another thread:[/color]
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord (26 references in O.T.; Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; 8:39; II Cor. 3:17,18)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God (14 references in O.T.; 12 references in N.T.)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF our God (I Cor. 6:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God (II Cor. 3:3)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Peter 1:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him (Rom. 8:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord God (Isa. 61:1)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son (Gal. 4:6)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God (Eph. 4:30)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you (Rom. 8:11; I Cor. 2:10; I John 4:13)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS holy Spirit (Isa. 63:10,11; I Thess. 4:8)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him that raised up Jesus (Rom. 8:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit which is OF God (I Cor. 2:12) </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The above references clearly indicate to me, as one theologian says, that the Holy Spirit is "not an independent entity alongside God, but the evidence of God's active presence in the world." We've dealt very extensively with the significance of the preposition "OF" to indicate ownership or belongingness or possession. [/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]There was no debate in O.T. times about the Trinity. Period.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]There was no debate among the 1st century Christians about the Trinity -- but since the Trinity Creed was invented, there has been more debate.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Jews don't capitalize "holy spirit" or "spirit" -- it does not refer to a person.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The Hebrew and Greek languages did not have upper and lower case when the earliest biblical manuscripts were written.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Capitalization is merely interpretation of Trinity-influenced translators.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Pronoun gender (he or it) in Greek is irrelevant -- strictly a "theological" decision.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The New Testament NEVER identifies "the Holy Spirit" as God.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The Spirit of God is to God what the spirit of man is to man.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]"'Spirit of God' in Judaism denoted the power of God."[/color]</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The New Testament speaks of the GODHEAD (not Trinity) in the following manner (cf. Colossians 2:1-9): [/color]
  • [2] That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
    </li>
  • [3] In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
    </li>
  • [6] As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
    </li>
  • [7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
    </li>
  • [8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    </li>
  • [9] For in him [the Lord Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of THE GODHEAD bodily.</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Now, Paul's and other writers' salutations in the following epistles:[/color]
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]ROMANS------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:7)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I CORINTHIANS-----: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II CORINTHIANS----: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, (1:2,3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]GALATIANS---------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) ... unto the churches of Galatia: Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, (1:1-3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]EPHESIANS---------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]PHILIPPIANS-------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]COLOSSIANS--------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1:2,3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I THESSALONIANS---: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:1)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II THESSALONIANS--: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I TIMOTHY---------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II TIMOTHY--------: [/color]
    <blockquote>To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]TITUS-------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. (1:4)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]PHILEMON----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]HEBREWS-----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (1:5)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]JAMES-------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (1:1)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I PETER-----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II PETER----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, (1:2)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]I JOHN------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>... and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]II JOHN-----------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. (1:3)
    </blockquote></li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="2" face="courier]JUDE--------------: [/color]
    <blockquote>Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: (1:1)
    </blockquote></li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Paul and the other apostles/writers do not mention "the Holy Spirit." This absence suggests that Paul and the others did not regard the Holy Spirit as a person.[/color]
Where the Bible speaks we speak. God never speaks by what He does not say.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
.....and one mediator between God and men,
.....the man Christ Jesus;

That DOES say that there is not A Holy Spirit PEOPLE who mediates between man and God.
God communicates by His breath (spirit). Certainly He is just as powerful as we His creature in His Image.

Christ or the Messiah came FULLY in the flesh. If Jesus as the ARTICULATED WORD of God was not a member of a POLYTHEISTIC GOD FAMILY then the BREATH [Spirit means breath] was not a member of a trinitarian family. The ONE God says classical trinitarians always had His Breath and His Word with Him.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
.....that God hath made that same Jesus,
whom ye have crucified,
.....both Lord and Christ.

Jesus was not Lord [kurios] and Christ until God [Theos] made Him to be.

Jesus in His post-glorified state IS The Holy Spirit Comforter. He is King and High Priest and therefore there can be NO OTHER Spirit other than the MIND of Christ. He promised to guide the Apostles (only) into all truth. When the "parts" were left for our memory anyone who goes beyond is called a false teacher.

As the PARTS are finished as REVEALED to the apostles, The Holy Spirit disappears and men like Paul who could see AND hear and the other writers leave us with what Donnie has shown in blue and white,

There is the ONE God [Theos] the Father
And One Son Jesus of Nazareth as Lord (Kurios)
To claim that either the ONE AND ONLY GOD or His LORD with ALL power needs an imagined Holy Spirit person (rather than the Spirit OF God) is, according to John, the sign of AntiChrist.

Last edited by Ken.Sublett on August 10th, 2013, 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 10th, 2013, 2:37 am #19

Donnie, you're "suggesting" that Paul's omission of the Holy Spirit in his salutations indicates the Holy Spirit is not a "third person," let alone a "person." In your lead post, you even rely on some nameless "theologian" who supports your idea. Your premise is merely conjecture, an assumption. You assume that because Paul's salutations omit the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit is not a "person." Paul's salutations mention nothing of the kind, one way or another.

I could make a similar assumption if I posed the premise that Paul omitted the Holy Spirit in his salutations because he believed the Holy Spirit had less authority than God and Christ.

Paul's salutations do not say that the Holy Spirit is a person; they also do not say that the Holy Spirit is not a person. Therefore, we must guard against making rash conjectures and assumptions about the Holy Spirit based on Paul's salutations or based on what we WANT any of the apostles to say about the Holy Spirit. We must guard against using Paul or the other apostles to go out on a thin limb to "justify" our personal perceptions of the Holy Spirit.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

The apostle Paul and others were greeting Christian churches and individuals PERSONALLY as recorded in ALL 20 epistles. UNANIMITY [i.e., without any exception] in this given situation RULES. And it rules out conjectures and assumptions, even "personal perceptions."

I'm very surprised that you are now employing the fallacious pro-instrumental musicologist's logic -- "The Bible does not say "not to" [use the piano, sackbut, dulcimer, trumpet (Daniel 30]); therefore, it makes God happy [just as we think so] to worship Him with lifeless, inanimate musical objects."

It is better for us to abide by the principle or law of silence -- "... we are silent where the Bible is silent." Let us not attempt to alter the truth, even once, that Paul's salutations simply stated: (1) God the Father AND (2) the Lord Jesus Christ, His Son ... and then infer the presence of the Trinity's Third Person, "the Holy Spirit."

These salutations are truth, simple but definitive -- unlike your nebulous assertion that: "Paul's salutations do not say that the Holy Spirit is a person; they also do not say that the Holy Spirit is not a person."

There's a huge loophole in your argument. Here's why -- your "... the salutations do not say" allusion [either way] is illogical because the salutations simply DO NOT INCLUDE the Trinity's "Third Person."

We also need to consider that there are numerous references, besides the salutations, to the relationship and communication between: (1) God the Father and (2) His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. [Please don't even ideate that the Virgin Mary, "the Mother of God" (per the R.C.C.) should be included in the "familial" unit.][/color]
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"... no man knoweth the Son, but the Father" (Matt. 11:27)
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  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"... the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father" (John 10:15)
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  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"... I am in the Father, and the Father in me" (John 14:10)
    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"... the Father ... dwelleth in me" (John 14:10)
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  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"... I am not yet ascended to my Father" (John 20:17)
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  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"... He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." (II John 1:9)
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  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"... but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Rev. 3:5)
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  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"... I and my Father are one." (John 10:30)
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[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Now, let's count the number of assumptions you made, and compare that with the number of passages of truth that I have referenced.[/color]
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Bill
Bill

August 10th, 2013, 4:45 am #20

I have assumed nothing. YOU assume that because Paul omits the Holy Spirit in his salutations, then that indicates the Holy Spirit is not a person. You cannot base your premise on what Paul DOES NOT SAY in his salutations. If you do, then you pursue the same fallacious reasoning as those who "justify" worshipping with musical instruments because Jesus in the Gospels DOES NOT condemn instruments. Actually, Jesus says NOTHING one way or another about instruments in the Gospels; likewise, Paul says NOTHING one way or another about the Holy Spirit in his salutations. Yet we know that we do not justify instruments based on what Jesus DOES NOT SAY; likewise, you cannot legitimately justify your premise about the Holy Spirit based on what Paul DOES NOT SAY in his salutations. Your premise is merely an assumption, which is proof of nothing.

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