Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 22nd, 2013, 3:33 pm #21

Missed prepositions again?

IN the HEART is a PLACE: PAUL said sing AND make melody IN THE HEART. No one can HEAR you!

Paul and the Spirit were not STUPID as people claim. The passage even by simple simon would be

SING and make melody WITH your MOUTH.

Peter warned that people WRESTLE Paul to their own destruction because they cannot grasp that Paul ALWAYS writes to say what he WANTS to be understood and THEN defines the pagan antithesis.

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Bill
Bill

June 22nd, 2013, 4:32 pm #22

The singing of praise is made with the mouth; the actual melody is made in the heart. Neither you have told us, nor have I found, where the New Testament specifies that singing hymns is sinful. I gather that when you attend the worship assembly and the congregation begins to sing hymns, you keep quiet. Or perhaps you loudly SPEAK out in protest, telling the congregants that they are sinning if they sing those hymns instead of speaking them.

Perhaps you say something like, "STOP IT! STOP that sangin'! Don't you know you're supposed to SPEAK them hymns? Don't you know that Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 says to SPEAK in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs? Never mind about the part that says to SING and make melody in the heart. That don't count anyway! What don't you guys understand about SPEAK? It's SPEAK, SPEAK, SPEAK, S-P-E-A-K!! Here, lemme give you all the whole etymology of SPEAK! If you sang them hymns, you are SINNIN', oh wow, lemme tell you right now!!"

Now if you pulled that stuff or something like it, I'm sure the congregation would just cut to the chase and ask you to leave.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 22nd, 2013, 4:47 pm #23

Paul said SPEAK the BIBLICAL TEXT because the SING was called SORCERY

of the word epôidai The law against witches does not prove that there be any but it punishes the malice, etc. [Demosthenes]

You are correct as usual: there is no LAW which says 'Thou shalt NOT be a Sorcer.'

John said that they will be cast alive into the Lake of fire. There is no law which SAITH "thou shalt not be cast alive into the lake of fire."

There is NO musicating which is not a PREDESTINED and defacto-obvious attempt (and success) to keep Jesus SILENT in RESOURCE and PRESENTATION STYLE. He always guarded against gouging out the RATIONAL or SPIRITUAL giving heed to the WORDS of Christ as the ONE-PIECE-PATTERN for A Church of Christ from the wilderness onward.

You know of NO ONE nor have HEARD of anyone who SANGS hymns (theirs) who intends to obey the DIRECT COMMAND to "use one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written for our learning."

Music means "to keep the lambs dumb before the slaughter." It CERTAINLY works, doesn't it.


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Bill
Bill

June 22nd, 2013, 5:14 pm #24

There is also no law that says, "Thou shalt only speak hymns, for it is sinful to sing them." If Paul thought that all singing was "sorcery," then he really contradicted himself in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 when he said to sing and make melody in the heart. Even if that latter phrase is taken metaphorically and the melodious "singing" is to be made only in the heart, it's still a monstrous contradiction because, according to Paul and you, ALL singing (literal and metaphorical) is "sorcery." To the rest of us, that does not compute.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

June 22nd, 2013, 7:11 pm #25

SILENCE for women which forbids TEACHING beyond the command to PREACH the Word by READING the Word also applies to men.

http://www.piney.com/Gender.Inclusive.a ... hrist.html

Si_ga , means silent and not just VOCAL while being ORDERLY. Men have NO AUTHORITY to transmit to women to TEACH in the self-referenced or authentia authority form.keep silence, used by Hom. only in imper. siga, hush! be still! I 2. metaph. of things, sign d' olethros kai mega phnount' . . amathunei A.Eu.935 (anap.); surigges ou sigsin Id.Supp.181;

The command SILENCES: phn-e , (phn) Anaxarch.1: abs., cry aloud, as in joy, S.Tr.202; of a singer, aoidos . . aiola phnen Theoc.16.44:Pass., ta phnthenta sounds or words uttered, Pl.Sph. 262c, Ti.72a, cf. Longin.39.4.
4. of a musical instrument, sound, E.Or.146 (lyr.); of sounds, hdu phnein sound sweetly, Plu.2.1021b; but bront ph. it has a voice, is significant, X.Ap.12.

The command SILENCES: surigx , iggos, h, A.shepherd's pipe, Panspipe, auln suriggn t' enop Il.10.13; nomes terpomenoi surigxi 18.526; suriggn enop h.Merc.512; hupo ligurn suriggn hiesan audn Hes.Sc.278; ou molpan suriggos ekhn S.Ph.213 (lyr.); kalamin s. Ar.Fr.719; kat' agrous tois nomeusi surigx an tis ei Pl.R.399d.


Heritage Church of Christ: White Paper filled with 100 percent false teaching.

Jim Hackney keeping up with a small band of Texans IMPOSES instrumental music in HIS congregation. He says that God maybe IMPOSED this discord and violation of all recorded evidence or at least USES it as His only way to GET AT people and make them change.

Jim says that God USES ALL THINGS for good.

Paul said that God uses all things for good to those
Who LOVE HIM and KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

http://www.piney.com/Jim.Hackney.Romans.8.html

http://www.piney.com/Heritage.Church.of.Christ.html

Jim Hackney is one of the ACU band dedicated to RESTRUCTURING churches of Christ into Instrument Churches: as usual the promise is that we will still do A Cappella does not--dear fools--that we will NOT impose instruments over your head.



First what WE are going to do to YOU:

http://www.piney.com/Heritage.Church.of ... Music.html

Next we are going to lie about all of the Biblical evidence and prove that WE have the authority to BIND and lOOSE just like the olden Apostles

http://www.piney.com/Jim.Hackney.Instru ... rship.html

Like the Atchley promise that he violated, he could say THAT was THEN but THIS is NOW.




ALL of those who have stolen or tried to steal the church house of widows and honest workers have CLAIMED that a "spirit" commanded them to do what they knew would sow DISCORD and Silence the voice of the lamb. Here is a Latin SPIRITUS which proves that the only 'person' identified is Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon. The BEAST is defined as "a new style of music or drama"



Do I believe anyone cares? Nope: not my job.
Ken said "Complex harmony is a Legalistic end-run around the NO MACHINES ALLOWED."

Ken, nice dance. For one minute, NO singing or music is allowed, but now "COMPLEX" harmony is no good. So....chanting or singing without harmony is good, but not four-part. Yeaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh..ok.

You a democrat? Sound like it. It sounds like this, but could be that. It all depends on what is is.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 22nd, 2013, 7:36 pm #26

A cappella is that of the Pope's Castrated Worship team: they sang ORGANUM which was an early form of harmony meaning 'ala pipe organ.'

The Pope (and a clergy near you) thought that the LITERALLY CASTRATED singers gave more bang for the BUCKS than the FALSETTOS: you will remember that religious musicians must be MALES but they must perform the ROLL for DOLE as females. David did that.



<font face="arial" size="4"> Cybele had early become identified with the Cretan divinity Rhea (ZOE), the Mother of the Gods, and to some extent with Demeter, the search of Cyhele for Attis being compared with that of Demeter for Persephone.

The especial worship of Cybele was conducted by emasculated priests called Galli (or, as in vv. 12 and 34, with reference to their physical condition, Gallæ)

The worship of the Magna Mater, or Mater Idæa, as she was often called (perhaps from identification with Rhea of the Cretan Mt. Ida rather than from the Trojan Mt. Ida), was introduced into Rome in 205 B.C. in accordance with a Sibylline oracle which foretold thatonly so could `a foreign enemy' (i.e. Hannibal) be driven from Italy.

The early connection of Attis with the Mother of the Gods seems to point to the association of

an original male element with an original female element as the parents of all things. But in the age of tradition Attis appears as a servant instead of an equal,

and the subordination of the male to the female element is further emphasized by the representation of Attis, like the Galli of historic times, as an emasculated priest.


The Babylon Mother of harlots (Revelation 17) uses "lusted after fruits" (same as in Amos 8) as speakers, singers, instrument player or ANY pretend "god operator" including the grinders (prostitutes selling ANY of your body skins for a god). John calls the SORCERERS and the will be cast alive into the Lake of Fire. I believe they are getting an early start by being consumed or burned up by the breath (spirit) of their own lips.

PAUL OUTLAWED THEM Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. Galatians 5:11

As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! Galatians 5:12


If you are "Afflicted with the female disease then we can understand."

The Goddess Cybele (The Sophia - Zoe Usurpation)

"Here, devote to me thy manhood and become one of my faithful dogs! (Philippians 3 emasculated priests howl out songs) I shall be quick, and the cut will be clean!!!" Catullus:

"Oh, Great Goddess, Goddess Cybele, Goddess and Lady of Dindymus! May all your fury be far from my house! Incite others, go! DRIVE OTHER MEN MAD!!!"

http://www.piney.com/MuCyprActor.html

Cyprian demands: 2. Nor let any one excuse himself that he himself has given up the theatre, while he is still teaching the art to others. For he cannot appear to have given it up who substitutes others in his place,

and who, instead of himself alone, supplies many in his stead; against God's appointment, instructing and teaching in what way a man may be broken down into a woman, and his sex changed by art


The internet just ROARS with derision about the Feminine Worship Leader: but, I hear, the Devil cannot blush.

Just CANNOT grasp that A Church of Christ is a School (only) of the Word (only) defined inclusively and exclusively as the Church in the Wilderness which OUTLALWED vocal or instrumental rejoicing: this was a LAW to threaten HARM to any simpleton who made NOISE pretending to replace the Word.
</font>
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on June 22nd, 2013, 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 22nd, 2013, 8:02 pm #27

There is also no law that says, "Thou shalt only speak hymns, for it is sinful to sing them." If Paul thought that all singing was "sorcery," then he really contradicted himself in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 when he said to sing and make melody in the heart. Even if that latter phrase is taken metaphorically and the melodious "singing" is to be made only in the heart, it's still a monstrous contradiction because, according to Paul and you, ALL singing (literal and metaphorical) is "sorcery." To the rest of us, that does not compute.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill, there's no such law. Then, you have just created a NEW law (Bill's law) based on your lack of knowledge of the etymology of the word "hymned" -- a verb that may or may not require an object.

The definition of the word "hymned" (a verb) in "they hymned" should take into serious consideration what the word meant in the context of how it was used in the first century. If the verb requires an object, the question would be -- "they hymned" [a] WHAT? So, then, they hymned a psalm or hallel from the O.T.

Now, you tell us HOW they "hymned" during the time of Christ and the apostles. Certainly, not in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir or Baptist Choir format. So, "they hymned" ... how? Then, the synagogue assembly (not to be confused with "temple worship" where IM was acceptable) would be a good basis for that type of "hymning." This is where you are failing to understand -- and end up with absurd searches for where do you find: "Thou shalt only speak hymns, for it is sinful to sing them."

You have majored in MUSIC in your attempt [I often wonder if you're even making an attempt] to truly and honestly understand what Paul's MAJOR thrust was when he addressed his epistles to the Colossian and Ephesian churches. Here's the MAJOR thrust: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly...." That [letting the word of Christ dwell in] is the command and is to be accomplished so that in the assembly of saints, the "TEACHING and ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER" occurs.

"SPEAKING IN psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" will accomplish that goal in the teaching and adominishing one another. "SINGING and making melody IN YOUR HEART" -- that's not forbidden [and that should answer your doubt] -- but how do you do so? It says "IN YOUR HEART." Should that be CCM (contemporary "Christian music") style? Mormon Choir style? Praise Team style? Singing style where the "word of Christ" is not lost in the crowd?

There's the preposition dilemma again -- IN. Things to consider, then:

(a) "SPEAKING IN ... hymns ..." [using the "mouth"?] ------------- to one another;
(b) "SINGING IN ... your heart" ------------ to the Lord.

The New Testament will not allow anyone to MAJOR in vocal music in order to conform to its teachings. On the other hand, the New Testament will continue to command "to let the word of Christ DWELL in you richly." "Vocal music," which is only a type of music, is not the command. In your argument, you have drowned out "the word of Christ" with your musical emphasis.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 22nd, 2013, 8:08 pm #28

A cappella is that of the Pope's Castrated Worship team: they sang ORGANUM which was an early form of harmony meaning 'ala pipe organ.'

The Pope (and a clergy near you) thought that the LITERALLY CASTRATED singers gave more bang for the BUCKS than the FALSETTOS: you will remember that religious musicians must be MALES but they must perform the ROLL for DOLE as females. David did that.



<font face="arial" size="4"> Cybele had early become identified with the Cretan divinity Rhea (ZOE), the Mother of the Gods, and to some extent with Demeter, the search of Cyhele for Attis being compared with that of Demeter for Persephone.

The especial worship of Cybele was conducted by emasculated priests called Galli (or, as in vv. 12 and 34, with reference to their physical condition, Gallæ)

The worship of the Magna Mater, or Mater Idæa, as she was often called (perhaps from identification with Rhea of the Cretan Mt. Ida rather than from the Trojan Mt. Ida), was introduced into Rome in 205 B.C. in accordance with a Sibylline oracle which foretold thatonly so could `a foreign enemy' (i.e. Hannibal) be driven from Italy.

The early connection of Attis with the Mother of the Gods seems to point to the association of

an original male element with an original female element as the parents of all things. But in the age of tradition Attis appears as a servant instead of an equal,

and the subordination of the male to the female element is further emphasized by the representation of Attis, like the Galli of historic times, as an emasculated priest.


The Babylon Mother of harlots (Revelation 17) uses "lusted after fruits" (same as in Amos 8) as speakers, singers, instrument player or ANY pretend "god operator" including the grinders (prostitutes selling ANY of your body skins for a god). John calls the SORCERERS and the will be cast alive into the Lake of Fire. I believe they are getting an early start by being consumed or burned up by the breath (spirit) of their own lips.

PAUL OUTLAWED THEM Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. Galatians 5:11

As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! Galatians 5:12


If you are "Afflicted with the female disease then we can understand."

The Goddess Cybele (The Sophia - Zoe Usurpation)

"Here, devote to me thy manhood and become one of my faithful dogs! (Philippians 3 emasculated priests howl out songs) I shall be quick, and the cut will be clean!!!" Catullus:

"Oh, Great Goddess, Goddess Cybele, Goddess and Lady of Dindymus! May all your fury be far from my house! Incite others, go! DRIVE OTHER MEN MAD!!!"

http://www.piney.com/MuCyprActor.html

Cyprian demands: 2. Nor let any one excuse himself that he himself has given up the theatre, while he is still teaching the art to others. For he cannot appear to have given it up who substitutes others in his place,

and who, instead of himself alone, supplies many in his stead; against God's appointment, instructing and teaching in what way a man may be broken down into a woman, and his sex changed by art


The internet just ROARS with derision about the Feminine Worship Leader: but, I hear, the Devil cannot blush.

Just CANNOT grasp that A Church of Christ is a School (only) of the Word (only) defined inclusively and exclusively as the Church in the Wilderness which OUTLALWED vocal or instrumental rejoicing: this was a LAW to threaten HARM to any simpleton who made NOISE pretending to replace the Word.
</font>
I've included the following in my message to Bill above (earlier):
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The New Testament will not allow anyone to MAJOR in vocal music in order to conform to its teachings. On the other hand, the New Testament will continue to command "to let the word of Christ DWELL in you richly." "Vocal music," which is only a type of music, is not the command. In your argument, you have drowned out "the word of Christ" with your musical emphasis.[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 22nd, 2013, 8:32 pm #29

The presbyterians continue with responsive reading: that is a traditional thing that churches of Christ are not good at because it has little practice. The Presbyterians then and now at some level call "lining out" where the leader reads a part and the congregation repeats this. Without song books I will bet that people would actually learn something: I have been "sanging" about 78 years and I cannot repeat a single line to a single song in any COLOR song book.

Because singing or chanting was based on a number of syllables, someone with talent could set the Text to some kind of rhythmic prose so you can TEACH and ADMONISH. Singing metrical psalms would help since they were never used for "congregational worship" but were TEACHING songs: If you sing about bashing out the heads of infants as worship rather than LEARNING the poetic history that would not be a good thing.
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Bill
Bill

June 22nd, 2013, 10:08 pm #30

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill, there's no such law. Then, you have just created a NEW law (Bill's law) based on your lack of knowledge of the etymology of the word "hymned" -- a verb that may or may not require an object.

The definition of the word "hymned" (a verb) in "they hymned" should take into serious consideration what the word meant in the context of how it was used in the first century. If the verb requires an object, the question would be -- "they hymned" [a] WHAT? So, then, they hymned a psalm or hallel from the O.T.

Now, you tell us HOW they "hymned" during the time of Christ and the apostles. Certainly, not in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir or Baptist Choir format. So, "they hymned" ... how? Then, the synagogue assembly (not to be confused with "temple worship" where IM was acceptable) would be a good basis for that type of "hymning." This is where you are failing to understand -- and end up with absurd searches for where do you find: "Thou shalt only speak hymns, for it is sinful to sing them."

You have majored in MUSIC in your attempt [I often wonder if you're even making an attempt] to truly and honestly understand what Paul's MAJOR thrust was when he addressed his epistles to the Colossian and Ephesian churches. Here's the MAJOR thrust: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly...." That [letting the word of Christ dwell in] is the command and is to be accomplished so that in the assembly of saints, the "TEACHING and ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER" occurs.

"SPEAKING IN psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" will accomplish that goal in the teaching and adominishing one another. "SINGING and making melody IN YOUR HEART" -- that's not forbidden [and that should answer your doubt] -- but how do you do so? It says "IN YOUR HEART." Should that be CCM (contemporary "Christian music") style? Mormon Choir style? Praise Team style? Singing style where the "word of Christ" is not lost in the crowd?

There's the preposition dilemma again -- IN. Things to consider, then:

(a) "SPEAKING IN ... hymns ..." [using the "mouth"?] ------------- to one another;
(b) "SINGING IN ... your heart" ------------ to the Lord.

The New Testament will not allow anyone to MAJOR in vocal music in order to conform to its teachings. On the other hand, the New Testament will continue to command "to let the word of Christ DWELL in you richly." "Vocal music," which is only a type of music, is not the command. In your argument, you have drowned out "the word of Christ" with your musical emphasis.[/color]
As I said earlier, there is no law in the New Testament that states, "Thou shalt only speak hymns, for it is sinful to sing them." However, that is the basic idea that Donnie and Ken are pitching. Because they have become so enamored with the etymology of "hymned," they would have us drop all singing of hymns and have them spoken instead.

Earlier, Ken told us that Paul said singing is "sorcery." That is really amazing; however, since I do not find Paul stating anything of the kind in the KJV New Testament, then we must conclude that Ken alone concocted that idea, unless he found it in one of the Catholic Bibles.

OK, let's just suppose, for the moment, that all singing is sorcery as Ken says. That means the "singing and making melody in your hearts" from Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 is sorcery. Even if we take that passage and turn it into a metaphor in which the melodious singing is done only in the heart, and if we apply Ken's reasoning, that form of metaphorical "singing" would also be sorcery. If we believe Ken, then any and all forms of singing, literal and metaphorical, are sorcery, whereupon we would have to dispense with the latter half of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 altogether. Of course, that would be ridiculous.

I think we know where to file Ken's idea that singing is "sorcery." Of course, there's nothing wrong with "speaking" hymns, if that's what a congregation prefers, but if Ken or Donnie try to tell us that singing hymns is in some way sinful, we know where to file that, too.
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