An Online Conversation with the “Worship Leader’s” Wife’s Dad

Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

July 25th, 2006, 6:41 am #1

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
Quote
Share

peck
peck

July 25th, 2006, 6:56 am #2

<font face-arial>I suppose that any of us might find negativeness in our congregations...It's normal..

What I see missing is the positive happenings that are not being expressed by Donnie..

When I visit,my soul is always inspired by it's worship service...Keith has an agenda to get everyone to sing..That's his talent...Have any of you noticed in congregations now that very few are singing..It's tough to combat this habit that some congregations are into..At Madison,the church sings..

Anything that goes on at Madison is first class...Whether it is the prayer leader..The announcements..The presider over the communion...great preaching,full of truth and presented in a way that keeps the listeners alert...and best of all..He gets the point out in less than an hour..Children are behaved and actually participate in the services at times..

I hardly ever visit when there is no responses..My heart is touched by the way that the congregation ..both men,women and elders gather around those who respond and pray and encourage them..And I've witnessed more baptism's at Madison than any other congregation I've attended..and the baptism scene is always so inspiring ...

Does 3000 make a more righteous congregation than one with fewer attendees...I have a hard time finding a parking place and at times cannot find a seat downstairs...The building is located in an area that would not pull attendees into it's services so easily...I understand that many of it's members drive long distances to attend...So much positive thinking is going on at Madison that Donnie's efforts are not bothering them at all...Their tolerance for Donnie is only one more star for their great efforts to turn people toward our Lord..

If anyone has received a bad report from Donnie without investigating and have arrived at a judgement of Madison..You have an obligation to see for yourself ..Just visit some..

God bless,Peck</font>
Quote
Share

walt
walt

July 25th, 2006, 7:05 am #3

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
[fyi: walt is an ex-church member; Donnie is Untruth Buster]

<font face=arial>Those like untruth and piney will do anything to protect their traditional upbringing (which is based upon ego centric characteristics, a main reason why untruth won't leave Madison and why piney supports this carnal logic). Jesus no doubt would include them in this saying:

"Woe to you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." Matt 23:15</font>
Quote
Share

peck
peck

July 25th, 2006, 7:10 am #4

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>Walt,
Good morning..my brother...I know our hearts are common but I must disagree with you about untruth buster...He's just human not spiritualy deficit...

A lot of us in the CoC have a problem dealing with anger management..The problem is not the worship style it's the heart that is judging the worship style...It may have been a good idea for the HS to advise that each congregation select leaders to oversee the work connected to the assembly...No congregation that I know of has leadership that the members don't gossip about the elders...Agreeing and disagreeing with them..Donnie just went overboard ...that's all..grace works in those situations..

One thing positive is that he stayed and others who left and are trying to settle the matter while attending other congregaions are out of line...The opposing elders should have stayed and sorted things out to hold the unity instead of leaving...

None of my buisness,I know...Just wish for mutual understanding and tolerance be appreciated in all congregations..It's tough out there for church leaders in both anti and liberal positions...I'm facing some tough times myself and don't need religion but I do need help in raising my faith level..You do that for me..Thanks

God bless Walt,Peck</font>
Quote
Share

literal seed
literal seed

July 25th, 2006, 7:15 am #5

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>AMEN!!!

God has been pruning the branches there to bear more good fruit for His Kingdom. The fruit is becoming more abundant. I look forward to the local outreach that must take place to the needy in our community from the Hispanic heritage. We need that revival to demonstrate His power and stop focusing on our abilities. Through the last 5 years of challenge God has been faithful. It's understandable how the elders have had reservations regarding available resources for that cause. I see their faith increasing regularly and continue to pray for them and lift them up in support.

blessings and peace,
ls</font>
Quote
Share

Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

July 25th, 2006, 7:20 am #6

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Peck,

I beg to differ with several of your statements:

What you’re hearing is the 16-member Praise Team (the milder terminology for the progressive “church choir”). Their handheld microphones are rigged so that what’s heard is like a thousand voices. As wave runner has said about the “sound effects” of instrumental music “participating,” many of the congregants don’t sing—they listen to the performances. I’m sure Peck thoroughly enjoys the female PT vocalist when she performs her solo [not necessarily a desirable, but is a distraction to me and others, I’m sure] when the bread is being passed around. When there are handheld microphones used, there are performances involved. Congregational singing is becoming extinct where there is a Praise Team singing for and to the congregation, just as when IM is used. Your relative, Madison’s “Worship Leader,” is enjoying himself in wagging his arms, prompting folks to clap-clap, clap-clap-clap (this is “programmed” JOY to them) and applaud after a beautiful musical performance.

[Will continue this chapter when time allows it.]

U.B.</font>
Quote
Share

peck
peck

July 25th, 2006, 7:29 am #7

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>Donnie,

Go to other assemblies that do not have a praise team and you will also find people not singing....It's getting worse..Have you visited the traditional service at Madison..that does not have the praise team? Do you find more people singing at that service? It is difficult to get a response of everyone singing now..but..maybe it doesn't matter..My thoughts are that meditating on the message within the songs may mean more inspiration than singing out ....Isn't that allowing someone to encourage you through singing? Speaking to oneanother through singing...

As I sat in the balcony,I could not see the singers who were sitting in the pews which we call the praise team...What you hear is not only them but a blend of the voices downstairs that are singing in harmony with them and the song leader..It gives a sound like a praise team,when actualy it is the congregation..

Where I sit,I cannot hear the praise team because of the people around me and behind me are so loud with their singing..and the praise team is only a few feet from where I sit...My thoughts were...turn up the mikes..but Keith is devoted to congregational participation and will not turn them up...I agree..The people around me have voices that are in harmony and are louder than the praise team..I think you are hearing them along with the praise team and are confused..thinking all the beautiful harmony is coming from the praise team alone...

One of the most outstanding singing occasions that I witnessed last year was when Madison's worship leader led a group of mainline CoC in song without a praise team at all..It was in a different city...Many congregations came together for a songfest..The huge place was packed and it was a congregational outpouring of blended voices that were out of this world..You could feel the inspiration of those people as they lifted their voices in song...And they were a blend of conservative CoC...

Were you there a few weeks ago when the traditional and contemporary met together at Madison..no praise team..just blended voices..Keith was so proud..Voices being lifted up to our Lord is his agenda..not waving arms..It's not about him...It's about using talents to make the worship service complete in a professional way...

God bless,Peck</font>
Quote
Share

Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

July 25th, 2006, 7:37 am #8

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Peck,

We can have very lengthy discussions over this Praise Team thingy and its performances. I really think you are very deluded. Maybe I have a hearing problem; maybe you do. You have not addressed the performance issue. Whenever microphones are used -- and why should the choir use them -- performance is obvious. When applause occurs after a song, the performance of the P.T. is being praised.

Peck, I'm not denying the fact that there are some people who will never sing. That's not really surprising, is it? You're mentioning that as if it were a new phenomenon. Where have you been all these years to not notice that before?

All the music going on right now is mostly about feel-good music, all the rah-rah-rah and all the clapping [rehearsed and programmed JOY] is all encouraged and prompted by your son-in-law. All that cheerleading would be best at sport events and concerts; entertainment has no place in the gathering of the saints. I now know for a fact that you don't have a clue about the erroneous messages that some of the contemporary musical pieces bring forth. Many of the contemporary Christian ROCK music pieces are written by POP ROCK ARTISTS who know very little about the truth. The mention of Jesus or the word "divine" does not necessarily mean scriptural. These power-hungry, money-making ROCK ARTISTS ... well, never mind.

I would like to mention to Keith Lancaster, your beloved son-in-law, musicator at Madison, to disband the Praise Team, unless they STOP using the microphones. God is not deaf; he listens to the HUMBLE heart -- not to anyone who brags about praising Him with loud noise -- "Oh, I love you, God ... I love You!" This self-motivating proclamation is so silly and despicable as if God has lost His awareness of what man thinks and feels.

Perhaps, I can relate my own version of what happened on that day when it was a "combined" worship at Madison. Again, you were experiencing delusion. Did you mention that NO MICROPHONES WERE USED at all by the Praise Team?????????????????? But you said that the blending of voices was great? That's exactly what I'm talking about. It was back to real congregational singing!!!! I would say, however, that the Praise Team was there -- the PT members were either scattered or seated together in the front rows as usual BUT WITHOUT THE MICROPHONES.

Would you do me a favor? Would you mention to Keith to dunk those microphones in the baptistery or give them to concert performers? I'm beginning to think that God is offended by all the outward appearances. He is NOT DEAF! He listens to the heart -- not to the amplifiers!!!

How can I explain that to you any further?

Pray for Keith for him to not make himself the center of attention, not to even begin to think that there is nothing about musical idolatry or idolatry of musical talent involved in his behavior on stage as he thinks he is leading the congregation into God's holy presence with musical entertainment. And please don't mention to me that "it's all for God's glory" ... yeah, right!

When 75% of the assembly time of 90 minutes is about the concert, I become suspicious of the intent of the "Worship Leader" -- no such thingy in the NT assembly of the saints. I cannot imagine the early Christians listening to the postmodern concept of having a "Worship Leader" and a Praise Team. I thought they were devoted to studying God's word -- not to music lessons and performances.

Please think about all this, Peck.

Donnie</font>
Quote
Share

Walt
Walt

July 26th, 2006, 11:25 pm #9

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
[fyi: walt is an ex-church member; Donnie is Untruth Buster]

<font face=arial>peck,

The mentality of untruth (as seen by his posts and by knowing others first hand like him) have only one purpose in their agenda, and that is to tear down what Madison has built up from their biblical stance.... untruth's ego won't let him leave and because of this he lack's Christ like humility. Madison's humility has tolerated untruth's stubburn pride in all this. Even if untruth really thinks he is right and Madison is wrong, humility in this senario must take place by him - but what has taken place instead is - SELF PRIDE. In this case there has to be a departure before a reconciliation. [walt]</font>

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Edited to identify poster as "walt" instead of "anonymous" {content unchanged}
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on July 26th, 2006, 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Share

ServantForHim
ServantForHim

July 26th, 2006, 11:30 pm #10

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
[ServantForHim attends an "a cappella" (non-instrumental) congregation ... and is about to become an elder]

<font face=arial>U.B.:
Can't applause and that clapping be for God??? You have a problem with clapping and applauding God? How do you know that the clapping is for the Praise Team?
Donnie, everyone should sing. Like you said, God hears them. God doesn't hear bad notes. He hears the heart. So what if a person isn't a good singer. Sing anyway. It is about Praising God, remember Donnie?

You have a problem with the Praise Team using microphones, but not the preacher? If God can hear the Praise Team without mics, then the assemby and God can hear the preacher. The storys of this countrie' first preachers were of those who spoke to thousands, and never used mics. Why do you not say anything about the preacher, or just a single song leader using the microphone?
You have problems with the words 'Oh, I love you God....I love You!'
Donnie, I believe that it might be you that has problems. Hmmmmm???
Chrisitan music pieces are not written by POP ROCK ARTISTS? They are written by Christians. Period.
You sound like a bah humbug Scrooge. Uh oh, I better not get you started with Christmas.
Most of all, go to a church where you enjoy worshipping. Good grief man! You know God can't be happy with your attitude. It is painful! </font>
Quote
Share