peck
peck

August 3rd, 2006, 7:16 am #51

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>Thanks Chuck...I feel out of place speaking for Madison...I probably need to vacate this board as long as the concerned members continue...

Did you pick up on the way that the little children acted so happy during the basement assembly..I believe if Donnie could have witnessed the worship service there,his attitude would be different..He has a good soul..

God bless,Peck</font>
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v-jo
v-jo

August 3rd, 2006, 7:21 am #52

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font color=indigo face=arial>"I do not like saying this -- but you need to really stop your silly defense of your son-in-law, Keith Lancaster, Madison's self-designated "Worship Leader" who, along with his "Praise Team," caused the havoc in 2001."</font>


<font face=arial>Donnie, why do you repeatedly lie about this? Keith was not ever a "self-appointed worship leader". Not only is it a lie, it would never have been allowed to happen if he or anyone else had tried to be self-appointed about anything. But he didn't.

So, again I ask, why do you continue to repeatedly tell this lie? There is no way around it, Donnie. It is a flat-out lie.</font>
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Untruth Buster
Untruth Buster

August 3rd, 2006, 7:25 am #53

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>v-jo,

If you're speaking of a professional job in a religious setting, you would be correct. There are many talented men at Madison who can do "the service for the Master" free-of-charge. This "God's servant" has his own musical "a cappella" organization in the name of "religious" [OK, OK, OK--it's a religious business], but yet is being paid big buck$ to wag his arms and have his Praise Team sing to and for the congregation. The big buck$ are mis-spent. The funds could be used for more evangelism and benevolence.

If you're speaking of his arrogance, yes, he is a self-designated "Musical Worship Leader" who SINCERELY believes that he is leading congregants into God's holy presence.

U.B.</font>
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v-jo
v-jo

August 3rd, 2006, 7:29 am #54

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>Sorry, Donnie, "arrogant" is not a word I would use to describe Keith.

Keith has been gifted by God, and he uses that gift for God's glory. He's being paid so that he can focus time and energy on his ministry. Sorry, but I don't think his bucks are out of line for a large congregation in a large city with multiple full-time paid staff.

I've seen plenty of worship/song leaders in my lifetime. Keith is one of the best. Maybe even THE best.


May I remind you of these thoughts:

Eph 4:31 - Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior. 32 Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you.

************

Have you forgotten that he is your brother?</font>
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Untruth Buster
Untruth Buster

August 3rd, 2006, 7:35 am #55

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>v-jo,

I'd probably give Keith a higher rating for his musical talent than you would. The problem with your analogy is that you're confusing a natural gift which Keith has with a spiritual gift. Music is not one of the spiritual gifts.

You're also confused about the man-made professional job of "Worship Leader" whose human job description is to lead "God's children" into their heavenly Father's holy presence. As it turns out, the "Worship Leader" and the choir (Praise Team) are performers. Congregational singing has survived for so long and is better WITHOUT them. (And don't equate the "Worship Leader" and his co-performers with someone who just leads or starts a song.

No, there is such a word as "arrogant." It is defined by his behavior on stage.

No, you did not get my point about the big buck$. The saints' collection is not designed to pay for a man-made professional job in the church. There are the needy saints and the poor out there. His $alary can support SEVERAL evangelists in third world countries.

Besides, I seriously doubt that God has placed MUSIC at the top of the priority list in regard to the Christian's eternal destiny -- if at all.

The size of the congregation has nothing to do with the musical performance issue. As I said, there are many folks in large congregations who can do the wagging of arms for free. That ... I might call real service for the Master.

Donnie</font>
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Joined: August 3rd, 2006, 12:51 pm

August 3rd, 2006, 1:22 pm #56

Hi everyone,
Just a one time post to let you all know that I have no respect for this website..I believe it to be an embarressment to the body of Christ..so,I don't post here..

However,I do respect Donnie and Ken and Dr and Jimmy..They are my dear brothers and as much as I need grace..I give them mine as best I can...

It's not my place to speak for Madison since I live 3 hours away..But during the split,I was in Nashville on Sundays(I forget now why)..and I witnessed with my own eyes the transformation...

This topic was preceded by what I determined as slander on the elders and worship leader in a different website(so I confronted him) and Donnie had the poor taste of putting it over here without permission..Sure,it's legal but bad manners in my opinion..

It seems that Ken can say anything about authority and get away with it here...I'm old and still have it in my head to honor and respect eldership wherever it is...but it's not my place to control Donnie's actions..Only as a fellow christian do I plead with him to stop this agenda against the body of Christ..It's ugly..Mutual respect and tolerance should reign..not this website...

Worship style is a choice and each of us can select our place and time to worship...

Blessings to each of you...Peck
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

August 5th, 2006, 4:50 am #57

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Peck123,

I think you should personally thank this site for posting several of your posts. I gather that you would want the online audience to read your messages, would you not? You see, too, that there are others whose messages have been posted. And they have no objection to posting without permission, do they? In fact, I think, they like the idea. (So, I think we now have the permission issue solved.)

Guess what? Interestingly, and out of curiosity, I decided to count the number of times the word “elder” or “elders” or “eldership” has been mentioned in the discussion so far, i.e., in relation to your reference to “slander on the elders.” Literal has mentioned it 2 times, Amazed 3 times, and Peck123 14 times. See your constant accusation that I slander the elders? What is your agendum?

By the way, Peck, there’s so much more to worship than just the “style” controversy or the “choice of worship style.” If you think of style as being the order of the “acts” or the number of songs, that’s not even an issue. If performance is associated with style, then, that is an issue. If 75% of the assembly period is dedicated to musical worship and 25% to the Lord’s Supper and to the teaching and learning of God’s truth, then that would be quite an issue. Furthermore, if the overdose of musical worship includes songs that teach untruths, then that would also be quite an issue.

Now that you have actually posted, we’ll just have to let our readers decide. Meanwhile, I shall continue to post more messages from both sides and let the reader decide.

Donnie</font>
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v-jo
v-jo

August 5th, 2006, 9:27 pm #58

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>Donnie - Whatever, Donnie. Knock yourself out. Your slander of Lancaster is on the web for the entire world to see.

Go back and read 1 Cor. 6:10 again. While you've got your Bible out, read the book of James. It seems you missed that one.

And 1 Cor 11. How can you share at Jesus' Table every Sunday morning with Keith while carrying this blatant hatred in your heart? "Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and the blood of the Lord." And from Jesus: "...leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother..."

Time is running out.</font>
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YTBH
YTBH

August 5th, 2006, 9:31 pm #59

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>Just a few observations sprinkled with some facts.

1. I have never heard Keith or anyone make the statement that he was "leading you into the presence of God." If anything is "announced," it is something like, "Let's worship God together."

2. What special knowledge do you have, Donnie, that Keith makes a colossal salary? Are you privy to the church checkbook?

3. Though one of Madison's members was fire marshal at the time of the wonderful worship in the basement, it was a disgruntled and bitter woman who kept making calls to the fire department those last few weeks to complain about a service she didn't even attend. She made the calls from the main telephone at the welcome center. She is the same woman who would show up prior to services afterwards to copy down all the attendance numbers so she could then leave and drive to her "new" church to report with glee when numbers dropped. This is a factual statement from a personal observation. Poor woman needs to get a life. Many of her own 1st degree relatives are still at Madison and pray for her.

I could go on and on but you get the picture. The ones I know personally who left (and there are many) would complain if Jesus himself gave the sermon... they wouldn't like his attire, etc. I hope that they are happy and truly hope they are working for the Lord elsewhere but I don't miss them!

YTBH</font>
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Untruth Buster
Untruth Buster

August 5th, 2006, 9:37 pm #60

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>v-jo,

Keep on skipping significant points. The BIG buck$$$$ -- the saints' collection could be much better used in evangelism and benevolence. If he is not profiting from his own business in the name of religion, $$$ from his seminars, musical engagements, etc., I can somewhat see his reason for another professional job in a religious setting. Still, though, his arm-wagging exercise a few hours a week is over-compensated. As I have already mentioned, there are many talented men who can voluntarily help lead singing [and alternating or rotating their schedule would be good] ... so that the church will not be burdened with having to employ a concert director for huge $um$ of dollar$.

Go search online. Some of the job descriptions: “worship leaders have some special access into God’s presence that the congregation doesn’t have” [WOW!] …

“An effective corporate worship leader, aided and led by the Holy Spirit, skillfully combines biblical truth with music to magnify the worth of God and the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, thereby motivating the gathered church to join him in proclaiming and cherishing the truth about God and seeking to live all of life for the glory of God.” Hmmm! What about this in comparison: “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers…” [Eph. 4:11]

… and “worship leaders” [Eph. 4:11b, KLV]

What about someone saying: “As I studied Scripture and read books like Engaging with God by David Peterson and Adoration and Action, ed. by D. A. Carson, I quickly realized that the Bible, especially the New Testament, didn’t give much space to my role as a worship leader. None, to be exact. The more I read, the more I felt I was reading myself out of a job.

There are more descriptions out there.

Donnie</font>
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