An Online Conversation with the “Worship Leader’s” Wife’s Dad

Amazed
Amazed

August 1st, 2006, 11:45 am #41

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>Myth-
Nice dodge. Now, try answering what I asked you.

Untruth-
I don't doubt that when the leaders at Madison made changes it caused a lot of problems. I wasn't there, so I don't know, or care to know, the details. I don't know or care to know who was right or wrong.

What I am saying is this. The changes are made. It is a fully functioning church with elders. If they are wrong, they will answer to God and Him alone. YOUR choice is to follow them or leave. I honestly don't care either way.

What bothers me is your atrocious criticism here and CM of the church and it's leadership. Then, your continuous calls for people to leave their churches instead of causing trouble.

If you can not see the hypocrisy in that, we are done discussing it.</font>
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Untruth Buster
Untruth Buster

August 1st, 2006, 12:02 pm #42

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Amazed,

Nice try. I'm the one who is not deviating. Neither are many of the other members who are still there. What makes you think I am against several hundred members who have stayed? I [not you] DECIDE to stay or leave according to my own volition.

In your case, you are the deviant, the non-conformist, the defiant one ... to the point that you have left the church and joined another. So, what business do you have in the church you left????????? In fact, why did you leave the church? You left ... and I have no intention to do the same as you did. Gotcha!

Trust me, just because there is such a thing as the "loud minority" group that you have aligned with comfortably doesn't mean that the "silent majority" is going to go along with you and your deviance.

You have left the church. It's really time that you leave it alone for good.

Donnie</font>
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ServantForHim
ServantForHim

August 1st, 2006, 12:04 pm #43

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>U.B.:
You say..."I'm not interested in fighting the elders; neither am I "not happy"; nor am I obnoxious -- just trying to point out that the "Worship Leader" thingy and the "Praise Team" created the unfortunate church havoc early in 2001."

You're not interested in fighting the elders? You might not be, but you don't mind humilitating them here on this public forum time and time again. You say that you are "not happy?" Why do you then criticize the worship leader and the worship service? The singing is a huge part of the worship service. If the worship service doesn't isn't something that spiritually uplifts you, the why are you there? What purpose does going the church service do you at all? Go to someplace where you actually care to be. If this isn't obnoxious on your part U.B., then what do you call it? Constructive criticism??? No U.B., it is not!</font>
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peck
peck

August 1st, 2006, 12:06 pm #44

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>Untruth Buster,
You are not facing reality..The reality is that all large congregations have a variety of thinkers..We blend but never fully agree on all the happenings that go on within the fellowship..It's called being a normal church..

You,on the other hand, have made something normal into something exceptional..Worship style has no power to add or subtract from the grace of God..When Jesus sits in your assembly,he sees a Donnie that he loves..He understands human nature..I have no right to speak for Madison but in my heart I believe that if you responded as so many people do in the service..that they would gather around you as they do everyone else and hold your hand and pray with you....They are your family and I gaurantee that your worship leader would welcome you into his home and treat you as if you had never said a word about him...You are in a good place...I wish I had your faith..I have as much religion as you or SE ...but my faith needs a boost and Madison is in the buisness of boosting people like myself...

Stir up love among the brethren not division...Our congregation has an outstanding worship leader who is paid..Do you think every body is happy..I hardly think so..and some of the elders decisions are leading us into a different world than what we are used to in the CoC...Do you think every one is happy? I hardly think so...But,we accept our elder's decisions and respect each other as christians and continue as one..some leave..but only in peace...It's normal Donnie..You are making something normal into an exception...If the people on this board could witness your contemporary service..Some would not see it any different from a traditional service..

However,our heritage as CoC is understandable and your reasoning is understandable..It's just that change is happening in the CoC and we have a problem adjusting to it..Have a great day ....

God bless,Peck</font>
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Myth Buster
Myth Buster

August 1st, 2006, 12:09 pm #45

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>Madison being a large church does have a variety of thinkers as Peck mentioned.

The 7 churches of Asia had a variety of thinkers as well, i.e. Nicolatians. In none of these letters were any members exhorted to leave. Not because of lack of modern innovation either. Persecution from outside the Jeruselem church blows that theory out of the water.

Amazed, if you are wondering why I don't bother with your questions it is because your original questions are 'digs' and not real questions. This simply reinforces the fact that you very much display the attitude you accuse those of having. If you don't see your hypocracy then I really am done with you as far as having a meaningful discussion.</font>
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Untruth Buster
Untruth Buster

August 1st, 2006, 12:14 pm #46

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Peck,

I do not like saying this -- but you need to really stop your silly defense of your son-in-law, Keith Lancaster, Madison's self-designated "Worship Leader" who, along with his "Praise Team," caused the havoc in 2001. Why can you not see this?

I have nothing to do with the COLOSSAL mess he did when he had the nerve to intrude and interfere with the assembly of Christians meeting at 10:30 AM by bringing in his choir performing with their very loud microphones. I myself almost jumped out of my seat! "What in the world is that?" Surprisingly, to my knowledge, none of the very senior saints had a heart attack.

It has not been the same since ... as attendance has dwindled to half the size.

And you accuse me of being the troublemaker? It is your son-in-law and his musicians!!!!!!

It's also time you stop making excuses such as ... that it was a fire hazard for the newly created third group to continue meeting in the basement. In case you didn't know this, Peck, the one who screamed "Fire!!!" happened to be the Chief of the Metro Fire Dept.

The newly formed "charismatic" third group did not have to interfere with the assembly at 10:30 {which had been there for ages). That group could have set another time or schedule to meet.

You know the common defense mechanism of the change advocates? It is this: "If you don't like the change, it's your fault ... it's your problem ... you do not have love.

That's what you KEEP telling me, Peck.

Hey, deal with the source of the problem.

Untruth Buster

P.S.: Don't forget [IOW, REMEMBER] that there are still HUNDREDS in the fellowship who do not support your son-in-law and his performers. If you think the gathering is about MUSICAL WORSHIP which comprises 70% of the entire period [that's 60 of 90 minutes], I honestly think your concept of the purpose of the assembly is misdirected. Let’s see: At one gathering your son-in-law directed his Praise Team to some <font size=4>18 musical pieces</font>. And many of these were either 7-11 singy-clappy rah-rah-rahs or songs written by “Christian Hot Rock” artists.</font>
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

August 1st, 2006, 4:32 pm #47

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
John Calvin informs us that "there is no statute of limitations on Heresy." Nor, do the elders have ANY command authority and they are--if APT--to be the ONLY pastor-teachers of the EKKLESIA or school of the Bible. In NUMEROUS Biblical and historical churches that meant to READ and DIALOG a portion of Scripture each week. The goal of TEACHING the Biblical text only was to LEARN something and not feel like you have been to the local topless bar with MALES performing the roles UNIQUELY reserved in cities like Corinth for prostitutes or perverted males. Their DIRECT COMMAND is to "teach that which has been taught." They have no authority to add:

The ACT of preaching: that heresy didn't arrive for hundreds of years
The ACT of singing: that heresy arrived about 400 years too late"
The ACT of "laying by in store." THAT IS A RECENT LAW.

Jesus died to OUTLAW those adding spiritual anxiety like DEBT and mind-altering, sexual-stimulating RITUALS specificially outlawed by the word REST.

Beyond that, the elders and the AUDIENCE are partners and NO one should be THREATENED PSYCHOLOGICALLY by saying they should LEAVE. The TROUBLE MAKERS should leave. COVERING UP a sin is just as vile as COMMITTING the sin of turning "school of the Bible" into a CRACK HOUSE where the CRACK is "endorphins" induced by the AROUSAL displays.

Elders are normally BUDDY SELECTED and if they have no sense of morality or KNOWLEDGE of the meaning of APT TO TEACH then they have NO SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY. OBEY means to "listen to and heed what they TEACH (defined as INSPIRED TEXT) and to "watch the outcome of their lives."

From Iamblicus defining the EGYPTIAN rituals enacted by Israel when the ROSE UP TO PLAY. For that God abandoned them to this IDOLATRY and what you see under the KINGS in defined below. Why would ELDERS (unless WOLVES) turn the church over to what Paul warned AGAINST. TIME does not make a CRIME into WORSHIP.

"In addition to these things you remark as follows: "So also certain others of these ecstatic become entheast or inspired when they hear cymbals, drums, or some choral chant, 21 as, for example, those who are engaged in the Korybantic Rites, 22 those who are possessed at the Sabazian festival and those who are celebrating the Rites of the Divine Mother." <font color=red>[ZOE] 23</font> [Sabazianism was the worship of the STARRY HOST to which God abandoned the Isralites]
  • <font color=red>Note 21.</font> Some exhibition of this kind is described by the Apostle Paul in the first Epistle to the Corinthians. "If," says he, "the whole assembly come together to the same place and all prattle in tongues, and common men should come in, or unbelievers, will they not say that you are raving?" [Paul equated that to MUSIC]

    Hence he counsels that only two or three should speak in turn, and one interpret; but if nobody present is capable of this, they should keep silence, and speak only to themselves and to God:
    • "for not of tumult is he a god, but of tranquility." (Ovid; Fasti IV,

      "The attendants beat the brass, and the hoarse-sounding hides. Cymbals they strike in place of helmets, tambourines for the shields; the pipe yielded its Phrygian notes.")
There is evidently a deeper meaning in all this than is commonly apprehended.
  • Note 22. The Korybantes are variously described. Their cult was identified or closely allied to that of the Kabeirian [homosexual] divinities, and that of the Great Mother.[ZOE] It was celebrated in the islands of the Aegean Sea and in Phygia. Music, dancing, processions, and ecstatic frenzy were characteristics.

    Note 23 Sabazios, Sabaoth, or Sabbat, the god of the Planet Saturn [Chaldeee 666], was better known as Bacchus or Dionysos, and was also styled in Semitic countries, Iao or Yava. His worship was more or less associated and identified with that of the Great Mother, under various designations, and it was characterized by phallephoric [carrying the penis like MICROPHONES] processions, dances, mourning for the slain divinity, and the Watch Night. It came from Assyria as its peculiar symbols, the ivy or kissos, the spotted robe or Nimr [Nimrod], and the Thyrso, indicate.

    The name Zagreus the Kissos and nimr remind us of Kissaia or Asiatic Ethiopia, and the Zagros mountains occupied by the Nimr. Assyria was called "the land of Nimrod." -Amos VIII.

    <font color=blue>IVY is the mark of the TRINITY. </font>

    http://www.piney.com/His223.html
It is proper, accordingly, to tell the causes of these things, how they came into existence, and what explanation there is for the performing of the Rites.

These allusions which you make, namely, that the music at these festivals is exciting and passionate; [OUTLAWED BY PAUL]
  • that the sound of the flutes [vocal bands] CAUSES or heals conditions of aberration; A
    that the music changes the temperaments or dispositions of the body;

    that by some of the choral songs the Bacchic frenzy is excited,
    but by others the Bacchic orgies are made to cease;
26. With the Korghantians, this represented a guard about the Demiurgos or Creator; with the Kuretes, it denoted a protecting of the divine maid Kora.
  • Note; 26. Servius remarks that the Sacred observances of Father Liber, the Roman Bacchus, related to the purification of souls. This cleansing, as here declared, was considered to be [Original Sin] not only from contamination acquired by coming into the conditions of physical existence, but also from guilt actually incurred.
Thou seemest to think that those who are enrapt by the Mother of the gods are males, for thou callest them, accordingly, "Metrizontes";
  • yet that is not true, for the "Metrizontesæ" are chiefly women.
    A very FEW, however, are MALES, and such as may be more DELICATE. [Malakos meaning SOFT: the Catamites] [Paul warned that OUTSIDE the spirit THERE BE DOGS]

    This enthusiasm has a power that is both life-engendering and perfective, in which respect it differs from every other form of frenzy.

    Proceeding thus, after this way, into what remains of the present discussion, and distinguishing particularly the inspirations of the Nymphs or of Pan,
The word ORGE is PROOF that God is pouring out His WRATH where the MARKS are the singers and musicians UNDER the Mother Whore and John called them SORCERERS.

You don't GET PREFERENCES in the ASSEMBLY: Paul excluded those in Romans 14 so you could focus on the WORD in the ekklesia while OUTLAWING the SELF PLEASURING connected to the creation of MENTAL EXCITEMENT.

CULTURE never gives one permission to HURT OTHERS to turn church into an EFFEMINATE and EFFEMINIZING entertainment center.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

August 2nd, 2006, 3:42 am #48

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
The elder was in the FRONT LINE leading the troups into battle. Or they were on the front line fighting of the WOLVES (perverts) wanting to eat up the lambs. They have NO command authority because Jesus was SHEPHERD and not demagogue.

Their authority DEMANDS that they "call the assembly and keep order." When the assembly dismisses they have NO authority to hire STAND OVERS as insincere preachers or musicians which are defined by the same word as PROSTITUTES: selling the Free Word at retail or selling THEIR OWN compositions and THIS defines the Scribe, Pharisee and HYPOCRITE (performer)
  • <font color=blue>"We have frequently used the term 'officers' with reference to the servants of the church. We have frequently affirmed that in the ordinary use of that term an 'officer' is unknown to the Christian scriptures...An officer in the ordinary acceptation of the term is one who is appointed to do a work, which he could NOT do without that appointment and to which, without the official investiture, would be a crime...can an overseer consecrated as as he may be...do anything as such that every Christian is not at liberty, and even is duty bound to do to the best of his ability" (David Lipscomb, The Gospel Advocate, 1867, p. 567)

    "Controlling the church by virtue of authority of office is unknown in the Scriptures. All should seek to control simply and only through the authority of truth, impressed by lives of godliness, purity and love." (Lipscomb in The Gospel Advocate, 1871)

    "Hence elders and deacons, whatever may be meant by these words, can do nothing by what is called official authority into whch they are to be installed by something called ordination. Whatever is done by them must be done by the WORD of God, and not by any official authority to them." (Gospel Advocate, 1898, p. 280).

    "No man, therefore, has any arbitrary or official authority in the church of God...The word of God, not their personal decisions by their own wisdom, must be the rule, the law, in all things pertaining to the service of God." (E.G. Sewell, GA, 1897, p. 292) </font>
The LIVING WORD cast out the Musical Minstrels LIKE DUNG. The written Word ALWAYS connects Music to children (female only please), to Satan, to warriors, to sacrificial exorcists, to prostitutes and Sodomites.

Here is how you preach in the synagogue
  • <font color=blue>For Moses of old time hath in every city them
    that preach him,
    being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Ac.15:21</font>
That is what Paul commanded Timothy and there is NEVER any singing in the SYNAGOGUE of Paul on mission or by Timothy: they would CAST HIM OUT as a pervert.
  • <font color=blue> Till I come, give attendance to (public) reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 1 Tim 4:13</font>
Here is how the Elders Rule
  • <font color=blue>Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1 Tim 5:17 </font>
The ELDER is due an HONORARIUM or voluntary gifts IF he is already "laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching." (Word and Doctrine.)

That is the PATTERN established by Jesus, commanded by Paul and practiced by ALL faithful churches.

Madison is NOT an ekklesia and it HAS NO QUALIFIED ELDERS or they would not have USURPED authority in the same way WOMEN were forbidden: that is AUTHENTIA which is both EROTIC and MURDEROUS.

Eat, drink and make Mary, but you ARE NOT REMOTELY a kissing cousin to a faithful church and the elders are WOLVES.
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peck
peck

August 2nd, 2006, 8:42 am #49

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Peck,

I do not like saying this -- but you need to really stop your silly defense of your son-in-law, Keith Lancaster, Madison's self-designated "Worship Leader" who, along with his "Praise Team," caused the havoc in 2001. Why can you not see this?

I have nothing to do with the COLOSSAL mess he did when he had the nerve to intrude and interfere with the assembly of Christians meeting at 10:30 AM by bringing in his choir performing with their very loud microphones. I myself almost jumped out of my seat! "What in the world is that?" Surprisingly, to my knowledge, none of the very senior saints had a heart attack.

It has not been the same since ... as attendance has dwindled to half the size.

And you accuse me of being the troublemaker? It is your son-in-law and his musicians!!!!!!

It's also time you stop making excuses such as ... that it was a fire hazard for the newly created third group to continue meeting in the basement. In case you didn't know this, Peck, the one who screamed "Fire!!!" happened to be the Chief of the Metro Fire Dept.

The newly formed "charismatic" third group did not have to interfere with the assembly at 10:30 {which had been there for ages). That group could have set another time or schedule to meet.

You know the common defense mechanism of the change advocates? It is this: "If you don't like the change, it's your fault ... it's your problem ... you do not have love.

That's what you KEEP telling me, Peck.

Hey, deal with the source of the problem.

Untruth Buster

P.S.: Don't forget [IOW, REMEMBER] that there are still HUNDREDS in the fellowship who do not support your son-in-law and his performers. If you think the gathering is about MUSICAL WORSHIP which comprises 70% of the entire period [that's 60 of 90 minutes], I honestly think your concept of the purpose of the assembly is misdirected. Let’s see: At one gathering your son-in-law directed his Praise Team to some <font size=4>18 musical pieces</font>. And many of these were either 7-11 singy-clappy rah-rah-rahs or songs written by “Christian Hot Rock” artists.</font>
<font face=arial>Donnie,
I do not come in defense of anyone at Madison..I merely wish to express the truth about what has happened and what is happening now according to what I witness...My goodness,Keith needs no one to defend him..A man who has followed his calling by God,while people as yourself have rediculed him in the brotherhood for 20 years...I back him not defend him..of course not all love his ministry..It's normal in a large church..Any youth minister,worship leader,elder or even some of the women who oversee certain activities knows that..It's a price they pay for being leaders..

You make it appear that the elders are not in charge ...

It's obvious that you never attended the basement services..you missed a lot..The crowds were so large that when adults came in,the young people would let them have their seats and they would stand along the walls and even sit in the floors..little small children were so enthused about the service that their little faces were full of joy and they participated in the service...The lessons were extremely well taught..but any adult in the audience could see that a large crowd like that was a safety issue...My town would not approve of it..It was dangerous as a fire hazard..

Donnie,If anything That I have described in my posts have not been true please have someone to correct me...I speak the truth of what I witnessed..It's not a defense but accurate information..I saw it with my own eyes..but they are old eyes..If I'm wrong..correct me

It's not my place to speak for that great congregation...I may be out of turn by doing so..In fact,I may be doing more harm than good by talking with you..I'm a free man,and speak my mind...I like you..but can't understand your brain...

God bless,Peck </font>
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literal seed
literal seed

August 3rd, 2006, 7:13 am #50

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>peck and donnie,

just to clarify some things that have been disputed here...not that it matters.

i attended the 10:30 services in both places during the last month before the move. the numbers continued to dwindle in the main worship area. it may have been down to around 400 total. the last week i attended in the fellowship hall, we sat in the overflow room that is used for dinners and special events when only 50 or so are in attendance. there must have been 100+ just in that room, full hallway in both directions coming off the fellowship hall and a full fellowship hall. i'd guess better than 700 in attendance. common sense would dictate that a move was in order. hindsight is 20/20, and it could have been done better. there are none that disagree with that. one of our elders, both then and now, held the position of fire chief prior to that occurrence. based on his experience, i would trust his opinion in matters such as that. the evolution of the contemporary service has been met with mixed responses. some chose to leave immediately, as donnie has reported. some chose to change to the traditional service. some have come and gone since then. to those that remain or now attend at madison it's no longer a big issue...except for donnie. he has joined the campaign to warn the brethren elsewhere of such dangerous events. let freedom ring! shout it from the rooftops! i still don't understand why he continues to attend assemblies that he knows will not be pleasing to him or to God(in donnie's opinion). if i felt like he does, i'd seek other fellowship.

bap,
ls</font>
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