An Online Conversation with the “Worship Leader’s” Wife’s Dad

Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

July 29th, 2006, 6:29 am #21

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>M.B.,

Forgot something. It is not uncommon in a few congregations where there is a long period of "Praise" Music with instructions from the "Worship Leader" for the congregants to stand up all the time while singing a series of singy-clappy praise songs.

There are not that many who lift hands, but I notice that the ones who do experience tiredness. Funny, most of the time these few folks are unable to maintain the strenuous act of raising their arms for that long, therefore, the "act" is interrupted. [Just thought of something very funny -- can you imagine some of the European women who don't shave their armpits and wearing short-sleeve tops ... raising their arms?]

Anyway, speaking of standing all through the praising and clapping period, I really feel sorry for those with disabilities ... or even the strong -- they, too, get tired of standing for long minutes just because the leaders have it organized that way and them brainwashed that way.

Talking about organized religion. Good thing most of the congregations are not into this charismatic-led environment.

U.B.</font>
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peck
peck

July 29th, 2006, 6:34 am #22

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>Donnie,
You speak out of one side of your mouth that IM is wrong and that we are to sing acappella..

Then out of the other side of your mouth,you say that acappella is wrong because it is a performance...and is no better than IM..

Maybe a rule book from the bible might be helpful..Since acappella is authorized and IM is not...Do you have those rules for us to see...It seems all your talk is from your point of view..We need some HS instruction on corporate worship...If we can sing and make melody in our hearts to God,what are the restrictions according to the HS..?

You're making a mountain out of a molehill...Well,maybe a little smaller than a molehill..

God bless,Peck</font>
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v-jo
v-jo

July 29th, 2006, 6:38 am #23

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>There's something wrong with someone who makes fun of a song with these words:

You're my brother, you're my sister,
So take me by the hand
Together we will work until He comes

There's no foe that can defeat us
When we're walking side by side
As long as there is love, we will stand

***************

What part don't you like, UB, the brother/sister part, the working together part, the walking side by side part? Oh, wait, I know what part you don't like: "As long as there is love, we will stand."

That's why Madison is still standing. Kinda sticks in yore craw, don't it?</font>
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 29th, 2006, 12:26 pm #24

<font face=arial>Donnie,
You speak out of one side of your mouth that IM is wrong and that we are to sing acappella..

Then out of the other side of your mouth,you say that acappella is wrong because it is a performance...and is no better than IM..

Maybe a rule book from the bible might be helpful..Since acappella is authorized and IM is not...Do you have those rules for us to see...It seems all your talk is from your point of view..We need some HS instruction on corporate worship...If we can sing and make melody in our hearts to God,what are the restrictions according to the HS..?

You're making a mountain out of a molehill...Well,maybe a little smaller than a molehill..

God bless,Peck</font>
Whether a soloist, an ensemble group, or a full choir sings a cappella or with instruments, if they do so in a worship service while the rest of the congregation is silent and listening to them, then they are performing. Worship is not about performing. It's the natural tendency for audiences to focus on performers and their talents. When performers are made a part of worship services, audiences by nature focus on them rather than on God. Therefore, it is better to stick with simple, a cappella congregational singing, where no one person or group can possibly be made the center of attention.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 29th, 2006, 12:51 pm #25

<font face=arial>There's something wrong with someone who makes fun of a song with these words:

You're my brother, you're my sister,
So take me by the hand
Together we will work until He comes

There's no foe that can defeat us
When we're walking side by side
As long as there is love, we will stand

***************

What part don't you like, UB, the brother/sister part, the working together part, the walking side by side part? Oh, wait, I know what part you don't like: "As long as there is love, we will stand."

That's why Madison is still standing. Kinda sticks in yore craw, don't it?</font>
After having read a number of posts that v-jo has made at FaithSite, I need to make a short observation. Her responses to conservative Christians are usually defensive and sarcastic, sometimes quite hostile. Studying her phraseology, I envision a person scowling and frowning, maybe even grinding her teeth, as she pounds out negative responses to anything the conservatives have to say. V-jo implies that Untruth Buster objects to lyrics that mention "love," yet I've never noticed any remote trace of "love" in any of her responses to the conservatives. That seems to be a common scenario: Detesting the biblical truths that the conservatives present, the liberals accuse them of not having "love," when in fact the liberals, by their hostile responses, are the ones failing in "love." That indeed is hypocrisy.
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Dr. Max Moon
Dr. Max Moon

July 29th, 2006, 8:32 pm #26

Dr. Bill, one Dr. to another, you talking to V-jo about hypocrisy, is like the pot calling the kettle black.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

July 29th, 2006, 9:32 pm #27

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Peck,

I think I have reached a point where it is pointless to explain anything anymore to you. I am just showing you what's happening out there in a FEW of the congregations that have succumbed to this Change Movement thingy -- how very destructive it is and how it is dividing the church needlessly. When you continue to defend the divisive CONTROVERSIAL and/or UNNECESSARY issues, you are not helping one bit. That's all I am trying to say.

I'm not even into discussing what is or what isn't sinful -- as you make it sound like. But the reality is that these issues are causing alienation among your brothers and sisters in Christ. If you don't ... and as long as you don't ... fully realize and recognize this fact, I have nothing else to say that will change your mind.

"Prevention is better than cure," as the saying goes.</font>
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Amazed
Amazed

July 29th, 2006, 9:36 pm #28

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>UB-
Here's your sign... I mean quote:

"There's also a Contemporary, Charismatic "Christian Rock Music" HYMN titled "Clap Your Hands" [not kidding, BTW] that the leader and his Praise Team performs for the congregation. The Team and the willing participants thoroughly enjoy this "love feast" as they sing, "Clap your hands all ye people, shout to God with a voice of triump, clap your hands ... Alleluia, alleluia! Alleluia, alleluiah!"


I can not believe the heretics at Madison would sing this charismatic rock song. What is the church coming to ? It comes from of all places.... PSALM 47!!!!

That's in the Bible. Maybe you've heard of it. It's also commonly referred to as God's Word.</font>

Instrumental music is God's plan. You better start using it!
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

July 29th, 2006, 9:44 pm #29

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Amazed,

I wonder about that, too.
  • 2Kgs.11:[12] And he brought forth the king's son, and put the crown upon him, and gave him the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; and they clapped their hands, and said, God save the king.
  • Job.27:[23] Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place.
  • Job.34:[37] For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.
  • Pss.98:[8] Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together
  • Isa.55:[12] For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
  • Lam.2:[15] All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth?
  • Ezek.25:[6] For thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast clapped thine hands, and stamped with the feet, and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel;
  • Nah.3:[19] There is no healing of thy bruise; thy wound is grievous: all that hear the bruit of thee shall clap the hands over thee: for upon whom hath not thy wickedness passed continually?
U.B.</FONT>
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 29th, 2006, 9:59 pm #30

Dr. Bill, one Dr. to another, you talking to V-jo about hypocrisy, is like the pot calling the kettle black.
Two spiritual mavericks, Max and v-jo, have both used the insult "pot calls kettle black." That's an old, well-worn, and used-up insult. Come, come, now, I expected more creativity. But I guess after a while, the insults dry up. You can only stomp, scream, and yell, "pot calls kettle black, pot calls kettle black, potcallskettleblack" so many times before it just fizzles out and loses its "zinger-ness." Whatever, vain attempts at insulting me over and over still don't diminish the fact that v-jo has accused the conservatives of lacking love because they preach hard biblical truth, yet she manifests nothing but hostility and anger toward them, the very thing of which she accuses the conservatives. That's called hypocrisy, and Max supports her for it. Quite predictable from two spiritual mavericks. And BTW, that's no attack, its just plain fact.
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