peck
peck

July 26th, 2006, 11:38 pm #11

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
[fyi: peck--Keith Lancaster's father-in-law]

<font face=arial>Donnie,
Your perception of Holy entertainment is in your mind..You are entitled
to your opinion..but..Are you an elder? If you are elected as an elder,then have your say in their meetings...Those who are members can express feelings but are not the decision makers..The elders gave the worship leader a job to do..He does it...Before the split..The worship leader had the responsibility of one traditional service early and one traditional service later..He did not get to assemble with the contemporary service in the basement since both were going on at the same time....After so many people assembled in the basement and a fire hazard appeared..Only 2 services were available..instead of 3 services,the worship leader was responsible for a contemporary and a traditional service..not 3 as was previous..His job was to handle each service as his job required....It's not about him.. It's about handling the job that the elders are trying to do in decency and in order...No defense is needed by me..You have first class elders and first class participation in the service..Just submit to church authority ...You are confused but I see in you a change from anger to communicating on a more mature level..No one could be any more childish than I..we're just sinners saved by grace..

Have a blessed day,Peck

Walt..thanks </font>
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

July 26th, 2006, 11:48 pm #12

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font size=3 color=indigo face=times new roman>No, Servant for whomever, you are the confused one in the church. I've heard of all your arguments for IM, etc. And you're correct about one thing -- all these other animations and inanimate objects participating with you in how you PERCEIVE the gathering of the saints should be are extraneous and unnecessary.

Your logic concerning the preacher using the microphone is illogical. He doesn't need it if he can be heard; he needs it if he needs to be heard. And so it is with one who leads singing.

The Praise Team performs with microphones. If God doesn't need the microphone because he listens from the heart, there is no reason for God to listen to the "Worship Leader's" ... um ... "Praise Team" with microcphones because He isn't deaf. God is not deaf -- is that not sinking in? Therefore, if the Praise Team does not use their handheld microphones [uh-oh ... PERFORMANCE!!!] for God to listen to, what is the obvious conclusion? The Praise Team is performing!

SFH, we've heard this often -- "it's about God, not about me." What about replacing the bragging and self-patting ["Oh, I love you, God ... Oh, I just love you so much" as if God didn't already know the person's heart] ... with "I need Thee every hour, most gracious Lord; stay Thou nearby ... temptations lose their power when Thou are nigh."

So, your arguments for the "Praise Team" and the "Worship Leader" are no different from your arguments for instrumental music.

I think you should "join" another church of your choice that already has all these things you desire. I would urge you not to stir up trouble in any congregations (99.9% of them) that are opposed to IM and all these other extraneous, controversial, unnecessary changes.

Donnie</font>
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Dr. Max Moon
Dr. Max Moon

July 28th, 2006, 3:29 am #13

Is this the Faithsite: Concerned Members extension?

Go away for a few days and things change.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

July 28th, 2006, 12:05 pm #14

Dr. Max, it’s more like an extended exposure of the “Worship Leader” and his accompanying instruments, the “Praise Team.” So, were you on vacation for a few days?
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ServantForHim
ServantForHim

July 28th, 2006, 12:12 pm #15

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
[ServantForHim is an elder-to-be]

<font face=arial>U.B.:
I hope you aren't a big person because if you are then this type of behavior and stress can't be good on your health.

The preachers that spoke to thousands back in the 1800s didn't need one. Jesus didn't need one speaking from the mountain, did He?, and He was outside.

"He doesn't need it if he can be heard, he needs it if he needs to be heard."
Couldn't that apply to the Praise Team. People want to hear the harmony parts of the Praise Team. The microphones enhance that part that the altos, or tenors,etc. need to hear. Some people can't read music, but can hear their parts when sung by someone else.
There ya go U.B.
So then, the Praise Team is NOT performing.
Hey U.B.....why not singing both "Oh I love you God," and "I need thee every hour."

Hey U.B. I will stick to my church. I am not creating a stir by staying there. It seems that you are by staying at Madison. The bad thing too U.B. is that you aren't staying there because you like, but just out of pure spite!</font>
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

July 28th, 2006, 12:15 pm #16

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>SFH,

I hope you're not behaving now like Walt -- the Great Spiritual Judge. I know he has influenced you that MUCH! Remember, I've been with Madison since the late 80's. The intrusion did not take place way AFTER that. So, you leave my decision to stay or leave according to my own volition.

In your case, I am just glad that you are not stirring up trouble in your church where you are about to become an elder. My advice to you is to not make the same mistake that the elders of Madison made by allowing the intrusion to occur. Or, by making the intrusion YOURSELF. You should know better than that -- I would hope so.

My remark that troublemakers should leave peaceful and peaceable churches alone remains. It is common knowledge by the way -- that intrusion, deviation, perversion, interference should be avoided because they ALWAYS cause trouble or havoc in the church.

My remark that you should seek another place where your desires are met [instrumental music, Praise Team, self-appointed "Worship Leader," applauding God "reverently and in awe" (is this possible with rhythmic handclapping like sports cheerleaders do ... hmmm!)] ... also remains as is.

What about the Christian Church? Just perfect for you.

U.B.</font>
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 28th, 2006, 12:58 pm #17

Is this the Faithsite: Concerned Members extension?

Go away for a few days and things change.
Since there's already a "ConcernedMembers: FaithSite Extension, because CM folks frequently post over there, how could there ever be a "FaithSite: CM Extension," when so few of the liberal, spiritual mavericks from FaithSite post here?
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Dr. Max Moon
Dr. Max Moon

July 28th, 2006, 2:17 pm #18

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>SFH,

I hope you're not behaving now like Walt -- the Great Spiritual Judge. I know he has influenced you that MUCH! Remember, I've been with Madison since the late 80's. The intrusion did not take place way AFTER that. So, you leave my decision to stay or leave according to my own volition.

In your case, I am just glad that you are not stirring up trouble in your church where you are about to become an elder. My advice to you is to not make the same mistake that the elders of Madison made by allowing the intrusion to occur. Or, by making the intrusion YOURSELF. You should know better than that -- I would hope so.

My remark that troublemakers should leave peaceful and peaceable churches alone remains. It is common knowledge by the way -- that intrusion, deviation, perversion, interference should be avoided because they ALWAYS cause trouble or havoc in the church.

My remark that you should seek another place where your desires are met [instrumental music, Praise Team, self-appointed "Worship Leader," applauding God "reverently and in awe" (is this possible with rhythmic handclapping like sports cheerleaders do ... hmmm!)] ... also remains as is.

What about the Christian Church? Just perfect for you.

U.B.</font>
Naw, I was working, so I didn't have much time to be on. I had family visiting, and then my internet was down for 36 hours.
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Myth Buster
Myth Buster

July 29th, 2006, 6:16 am #19

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font face=arial>I was at a church of Christ in west Texas where the preacher man told everyone to just hug the person next to you. Talk about made to feel uncomfortable.

I don't hug just anyone, and it needs to be my idea. Stupid. Just plain stupid.

They don't have any organized hugging orgies at Madison, do they?</font>
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

July 29th, 2006, 6:23 am #20

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>It’s been mentioned a number of times before that the reports here are not “fair and balanced.” I don’t quite understand that since I feel that this forum is open to opposing sides of issues. In fact, I have made an offer to someone to feel free to submit his own messages, viewpoints, complaints and rebuttals and to be assured that the other side is also represented here.

So, I would like to take this opportunity [or risk] to post what one side has to say about the other and vice versa. The messages from either side will be posted separately and in the order in which they appear at another site. In this way, a respondent can freely post a message just below the issue s/he might be interested in.
  • There was a question posed:
    • <font color=black>“Donnie, I hear all the talk that you are not even a member at Madison, yet you attend there and seem to care about what goes on with the congregation, yet if you are not a member then why not? If you are not I liken this to complaining about government, but never even voting. If you do not wish to address this here email me …. [TRH]”</font>
    I responded:
    • TRH,

      Sorry ... I just now found this. (The short title got my attention, finally.) I was reading so many "interesting posts" with today's date and finally got to near the top thread.

      Well, I've been attending Madison since 1987 +/- Then, the attendance was in the 3100s. Big place, right? As we know all about Madison's sad and unfortunate experiences, many folks have left since the havoc in 2001 early. I intend to stay until I decide otherwise.

      YTBH is correct about the directories with my invisible image(s). She and others have the right to believe what/how they feel or think about me. Anyway, regardless of what's happened at Madison, I have considered myself a member there. More importantly, my name is in the Book of Life -- no one in this world can take that away from me.

      I hope I have given you the info you wanted to know.

      I can't promise any quick responses, but you're welcome to correspond with me:

      DonnieCruz@msn.com

      Thanks for asking! [Untruth Buster]
    TRH’s reaction:
    • <font color=black>Donnie,

      I was just curious, thanks for the info. I attended Lipscomb in 96&97 and knew several people that attended there, and also from Middle Tennessee, so I had always heard about the size of the congregation. Do not think I was saying you have no right to voice your opinion, I was just wondering if you were a member there. Why so slow with Sunday School in Exile. Six months ago there were good Bible based posts and discussion and now it is a graveyard?</font>
    Meanwhile, someone else was asking me about Jim Mankin while the preacher at Madison … to which I responded:
    • No, I wasn't there at the time, although I had heard about him. Steve Flatt was the minister and Nick Boone was the humble pitch-piper ... when I started. [No, he didn't use a different pitch pipe for every different note. ]
Now, as to how this particular thread has turned into something between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and me … I can’t explain. We’ll just have to wait and see as his father-in-law [“peck” in this case] responds often in his defense.</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Myth Buster,

Something "organized ... like that" happens at Madison on occasion. There's a song titled, "We Will Stand," that the "Worship Leader" loves to sing and motions everyone to hold hands throughout the entire song. Why? You know, sometimes I wonder about the maturity of those who lead who take things literally physically. The song says, "You're my brother, you're my sister, SO TAKE ME BY THE HAND...." The words put into action make one think: "[Since I have a bad cold, coughing and sneezing non-stop], what an opportunity to share my misery and my germs with others." Hmmm!

There's also a Contemporary, Charismatic "Christian Rock Music" HYMN titled "Clap Your Hands" [not kidding, BTW] that the leader and his Praise Team performs for the congregation. The Team and the willing participants thoroughly enjoy this "love feast" as they sing, "Clap your hands all ye people, shout to God with a voice of triumph, clap your hands ... Alleluia, alleluia! Alleluia, alleluiah!"

Oddly, the adults in the auditorium sing this singy-clappy song while the children have already left to meet for their own "Children's Worship" AWAY from the rest of their families in the auditorium.

Silly geese!

U.B.</font>
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