Joined: January 28th, 2012, 10:19 pm

July 7th, 2012, 12:28 am #11

The Methodist are pretty much in bed with the Catholics from whom they are derived. The Christian Church, too, has its roots in the Methodists-Anglicans-Catholics. It has been observed that the Methodists are not really a Protestant body. The Methodist Women have also fallen into the mysticism which prompted God's warning. She promotes monastic communities which she says can be more effective than the Churches who force people to accept their Views. Well, doesn't everyone including the Methodists and Catholics. In these cells you would defacto accept that if you concentrate on just ONE WORD long enough the a spirit willl tell you what it means: that is not possible from reading the Word.

I have no reason to doubt that most of the denominational faculty at ACU are "post modern" meaning that they now have, says Shelly, received New Spectacles to get a NEW VISION for the church. If you have contacts I would suggest that they enter into dialog with members rather than the rich and famous merchandisers. LU guided by your friends are promoting the same feminist or matriarchal practices.

Because there are itchy people out there already badly discorded by ACU, why is there any reason to doubt that those who selected Elaine Heath (I think a fine person but a theologian and by definition not a Bible scholar) think that the "brotherhood" should not continue to doubt their sincerity or Bible background. Seems like there is going to be a lot of "sex" discussed at the next high council. From Elaine's data one might guess that there is going to be a lot of guilt-lading on sexual abuse for males rejecting women in "Pastoral" roles. That is equated to "racism."

The so-Called Stone-Campbell Movement endorsed by ACU has worked really hard to restore the Cane Ridge experience (defined by Elaine and history) which flowed into the Disciples but was what was always,including in the Bible, known as witchcraft or sorcery.

The truth is to be adhered to by all of us regardless of where and when it is taught

Many schools are fine in an academic sense- however if they collect money from the saints they should be teaching the truth not error.

The use of this change management strategy to cause destruction of ones faith is a form of dishonesty and subversion. What is sad about this is that many will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. The issuing of these speakers and topics is agenda implementation. That agenda has to be discussed and constructed prior to the selection of who speaks and what will be said. That agenda has to fit with a larger agenda of change management and destruction of "outdated" systems of faith.

Regarding marriage this is just another attempt to paint the obedient as tradition followers and we therefore should adopt a much more liberal stance. Yet the Bible says - Why call me Lord and do not what I say?

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

July 7th, 2012, 1:47 am #12

You don't have to believe any of the Bible. However, the Bible--Primarily the Prophets by the Spirit of Christ and the prophecies made more perfect by Jesus Christ--is defined as that upon which the church is edified which in context always means EDUCATED. Since the qahal, synagogue, ekklesia or church was to make known the manifold wisdom of God, the task and curriculum is not that difficult. Preacher's Schools are sect-focused and it is left to godly elders--even those who TAKE the oversight--to train men for service.

Just as a false prophet worked against the true prophets, the mark of a false teacher is one who does not teach that which is a left memory.

Almost without exception the historic church has been Apostolic: that means that if the Apostles do not reveal it then it is not part of the Christian system.

By definition their field is 'theology' and not 'Bible.' Otherwise they would teach the Bible rather than the text books of those who have been most violent in decrying the old Church of Christ. Just ignore the "bad" church and assume that there is not one faithful mainline Church, the only tast is still to teach from the Bible and you pass the test of minimal ethics.

Richard Hughes, Doug Foster, Royce Money, Carroll D. Osburn, Leonard Allen etal have used the "conservatives" as a launch pad to attack the premise of the church of Christ.

That would be just fine but most of their "men" are built on their own "straw" and they prove that you cannot stack up enough doctorates in theology of "Missional Wisdon" to be Bible literate beyond the surface.

As a Bible College it has no other resource as authority even if they think it is all bunk. It would be wonderful if they burned their Ph.d and became disciples of the TEXT and the pagan religions which it exploits. They WOULD mock the following because I don't believe they have any interest in what Scripture says.




Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on July 13th, 2012, 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 4th, 2012, 5:11 am

July 7th, 2012, 7:25 am #13

Havent there been rumors that both DLU and ACU have had discussions on how to withdraw from the fellowships of the Churches of Christ, and particularly what makes a congregation acceptable as a Church of Christ? With regard to the lecture topics, there is a tendency to knee jerk because of the overall lack of commitment to some, perhaps most, of the principles of our fellowship at ACU. But we have locked ourselves into too much attention to the assembly, I fear, and often do not give enough attention to other times. Consequently, I conclude that most of the topics listed could be quite appropriate for the venue in which they are presented, with the caveats of good sense and appropriate conclusions. There was a time when we called meetings revivals. We occasionally need to have revival because we tend to think there something new going on out there. There is not, but we need to have our thinking refreshed from time to time.

Incidentally, I have not been able to find the ACU link that matches up these topics, although I find, for instance, that Victor Knowles has a date for appearance at the Summit on his web sites.

The Devotional Power of Poetry...How Poets can draw us near to God (female speaker)

Why not? If a psalm as used in the NT was basically a kind of lyrical poem, and 1 Cor. and our earliest recorded Christian history clearly show that psalms and songs were not limited to the Book of Psalms, why not look at how poets draw us nearer to God. Is the problem that it is a female speaker, or is the speaker from outside our fellowship? We sing poems written by females all the time, exampled by Fanny Cosby.

The Times They are-a-changin...Reflections and projections about Women in Ministry

The problem here is times should not be changin. Women always provided ministry as clearly indicated in the NT. There were prophetesses galore. Paul limited their participation in the assembly, but that was about all. I wonder what new slant will be given to this.

Divorce is a problem that Paul had to deal with and so do we. Nothing new here, but scholars are always trying to find a problem to solve, or solve a problem that does not exist. We do not have a synod, and each congregation must deal with divorced congregants in its own way according to the wisdom of its eldership. Like you, I wonder how the traditional view will be defined.

In order to have respect among their peer institutions the leadership of these schools must be seen as reaching out, and they must hire from those leading peer institutions. Consequently, they are going to bring in to their lectureships well known names from wherever they can get them. This is not for approval of the brotherhood, but for approval from outside the brotherhood. Personally, I suspect they could do better than the names on this list. Church related schools, and not just schools affiliated with the Churches of Christ, all have the same three problems: money, attracting students (money, again), and reputation. At DLU the tipping point may have occurred back in the 60s under Athens Clay Pulias, and I suspect that in time DLU will go through the same travails as Belmont, and I dont think their future merger is even out of the question. I suspect that down the road ACU will become just a regional Christian center of higher education, OCU and Harding will probably mimic Pepperdine without the beach, and Rochester will be generally irrelevant. I dont know what to make of Faulkner and FHU yet.
...For starters, if anyone is confused about the source for quoting lecture topics, I'm reading directly from the printed program for this year's scheduled series. Which brings to mind another 2-part presentation titled "From Agnos(AR)to Harvard". It appears to be from someone who grew up listening to her grandfather preach, and thus she was inspired to seek a life in ministry. After completing her degree at the Harvard Divinity School, she became ordained in the (Disciples)Church. The second lesson includes the subtitle "It's a girl...In the pulpit! Twenty years of Bridge Building." Another thought about this upcoming series is that so few of the more than 120 names of speakers invited are familiar to me. Also, it's noteworthy that more than 40% of these names are listed as being from Abilene...add to that names including I. Fair, S. Love, and E. Sharp were all in Abilene in past years.

Before continuing, I must say that my parents, two brothers, and several grandparents were all a part of the ACC(U) experience. My grandfather retired from the Agriculture Dept. in the 70's although his years to live afterward were short. My grandmother, however, lived well into the 90's and thus became more familiar with the unhealthy changes that were coming.

With thanks to those who've provided background on Elaine Heath and prof. Brueggemann...is always interesting to hear where they're from and what they advocate.

In noting the previous writer's comments regarding the importance of a university to demonstrate they are reaching out to the "brotherhood" as well as looking to strengthen ties with "peer institutions" am reminded what kind of peer relations really exist between schools like ACU and FHU (as an example). Have been wondering how long it's been (if at all) since someone was featured as a speaker at both FHU and ACU...it appears there have been no common names for decades. Is another reminder of the disunity (and distrust)between schools founded by well-meaning members of His church.

Am running out of space...will have to continue later.



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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

July 8th, 2012, 5:41 am #14

Jeremiah 15 has Christ defining the future church: He will baptize with Wind and Fire and burn up those who refused to be Word-Only Centered. Jeremiah 15: Thy Words were found and I ate them.

http://www.piney.com/Jeremiah.15.Thy.Wo ... .Them.html


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[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]ACU Lectures 2012[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]For those not having an early heads up of topics for this year's(Sept.) lecture series in Abilene, here are some of the more interesting ones:

The Devotional Power of Poetry...How Poets can draw us near to God (female speaker)

Committed to the Cause...My life in Christian Churches/C of C's...V. Knowles (naturally)

Big-Hearted Conversation across the Denominational Divide...Spirit and the Church today
(R. Harris)

The Times They are-a-changin...Reflections and projections about Women in Ministry

Putting away traditional teaching on divorce...Untangling the web of marital messes
(I was unaware there was a "traditional view".)

Church Leadership structures that work...Best Practices for Elders (Siburt/Washburn)

Sex is more than skin on skin...The personal transformation to become a great lover

To add to the above, the University Honors College will be hosting a dinner to recognize
several including an ordained (female) minister from the United Methodist Church.

Those who have expressed words of concern for the teachings taking place at schools like ACU
are quite accurate in their assessments. It would seem reasonable to thinks that back in the
60's & 70's, those attempting to promote these teachings would have been driven out quickly!!

(In ordering a tape from one of the previous lectureships, it's a plus to continue to be on the mailing list at ACU...will likely order several this year to get a better indication of what is being promoted)


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[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]Source: The Christian Chronicle (/Articles)[/color]
From the April 2012 Archives.
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[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]ACU revises long-held policy prohibiting dancing at events
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[color=#000000" size="4" face="times]FROM STAFF REPORTS | THE CHRISTIAN CHRONICLE[/color]

[color=#000000" size="3.5" face="times]ABILENE, TEXAS - Abilene Christian University has revised its long-held policy of prohibiting dancing at events hosted by official student organizations.

"This is part of an effort on our part to be more real with our students who are young adults," said Jean-Noel Thompson, ACU's vice president for student life and dean of students.

In the past, ACU's students have been allowed to participate in university-sponsored events in which dance is a cultural expression or public performance. Student-sponsored organizations that want to have dancing at their on- or off-campus events will now need to gain approval of their venue and music list. Staff advisers also must be present at the event.

Thompson said the decision to revise the policy came after several years of discussion and research of policies at nearly 80 faith-based colleges and universities.

"We've found compelling reasons to provide appropriate venues for dancing on our campus for two reasons: It helps us influence or encourage students to show appropriate conduct in social settings where dancing is taking place," Thompson said. "We also believe the change will enhance the experience our students have while on our campus.

"In making this change, we're acting to make sure students can participate in this activity in a safe, supervised environment one that gives us the opportunity to proactively influence them in modeling appropriate Christian behavior," he added.

Thompson also noted that there was no blanket statement regarding the type of music or dance genre that will be accepted, only that the dance form "honors us, those around them and God."

Dozens of readers commented on the policy change on The Christian Chronicle's news blog, with some praising the decision and others questioning it.

-------------------

From the April 2012 Print Edition.

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Joined: January 28th, 2012, 10:19 pm

July 8th, 2012, 11:59 am #15

This announcement from ACU about dancing really tells us nothing - the dancing I was not allowed to do as a teen and young adult referred to close touching and associated familiarity with the opposite sex. This is still wrong even if done in the "right context" or to "honor God" .

This is nothing but double talk and clever promotion of a liberal agenda using change management methods. Underneath all the smooth speech is the idea that previous generations were wrong about this issue and even dogmatic and anti-fun.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

July 8th, 2012, 2:58 pm #16

The Stone-Campbell Movement is a big fat lie loudly assuming that what became Churches of Christ were ever "unioned" with the Disciples of Christ.

http://www.piney.com/Stone.Campbell.Movement.html

Instruments went hand in hand with social dancing and that one reason the Christian Churches fled Babylon in the first place. The Stone-Campbell Movement is tasked to bond with the very Disciples the godly Christian churches fled in the first place. Moses Lard wrote in 1864,

http://www.piney.com/Lard.Dancing.Instruments.html

II. Next in regard to Christians dancing. We frankly confess we feel ashamed and scandalized at the prevalence, in many sections of the country, of this licentious practice amongst the children of our brethren. And what hurts us little less is the fact that some even of the older brethren and sisters are giving it their countenance. Nay, they go so far as to encourage and justify it on the score that there is no harm in it; and in some cases actually send their children to dancing schools. For the sake of all such let us grant their universal plea of no harm in it, and see what it results in. There is, then no harm in dancing; and of course no harm in any Christian's dancing.

But just here, and before we close this short piece, a favorite position of the dancer and organ advocate needs to be noticed and disposed of. Each claims that since the New Testament does not in express words condemn its hobby, he therefore has the same right to have it that others have to exclude it; and that he is under no more obligation to yield his preference than is the opponent to yield his opposition.

But this position is not sound. A man has a right to hold as a matter of conscience every doctrine the New Testament clearly teaches, and to practice as a matter of conscience every act it clearly sanctions; and beyond this a Christian conscience is a myth.

I never knew a dancing Christian on his dying bed to send for a dancer to comfort him, nor a fiddle called [335] for in the chamber where death completes his work. Let no Christian think that he can scandalize the church of God with the evils of which we are speaking and stand approved in the judgment day.

He sports with criminal carelessness with his future destiny who so thinks. God will not suffer himself to be mocked with impunity by the impious daring of him who insults his children on earth and wounds their best feelings by dragging these innovations into the church. Here such a party may escape.


They lie that Churches of Christ Sected out of the Christian Churches in 1906 but the Conservative Christian Churches did not begin to exist until 1927 and finally removed themselves after the Disciples Restructure in 1958. They were not DEsected from the Disciples census until 1971. Just before that Leroy Garrett began working as a stealth campus minister to begin leading young preachers away with his 100% lying about Scripture and Recorded History. His is the flip side of the Sommerites he decries.

The Independent Christian Churches (NACC) worked really hard to subvert ACU and its spawn to the use of instruments. Now, they have to decide whether they really want to be MARKED with the training and placing of women preachers, a Pastor-Dominated institution, Female Elders (hope husband of one wife), Music in the form which has DISCORDED Christian Churches, Unfettered dancing and all that goes with the Methodist, Female (Sophia) led structure.

DOES THE NACC ENDORSE THIS OR NOT: PLEASE SPEAK UP.



Last edited by Ken.Sublett on July 8th, 2012, 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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William
William

July 8th, 2012, 5:10 pm #17

Donnie, first of all, there is still a major problem with this site as far as loading information and taking an extremely long time. Just thought you might want to get it checked out.

As some of you know, my youngest son attends ACU as a business major. The College of Business Administration at ACU is ranked among the top 20 business schools in the nation. It is a place of quality education based upon Christian principles. I have told him that the main reason for attending a university is to teach him how to think, that he will hear things that are new and different, but that he should use his brain, examine ideas and see if they fit within his own biblical principles. He is free to accept or reject each of the things that he is taught or will hear while in school.

In my opinion, an education without exploring new ideas or ways of doing things is not worth much. I would hope that those who might read this site would not think that everyone associated with Churches of Christ hold to one particular idea on any number of topics because such would be completely wrong.

I have visited extensively over the past couple of years with many of the "higher ups" at ACU. There has never been a hint that the school is looking to disassociate itself from Churches of Christ. Quite the opposite seems to be true. They value their heritage and look to build upon those traditions of exploring new ideas and thought processes to see if we can more fully reach the goal of being the first century church in a contemporary world. They fully understand that some aspects of the Summit are controversial, but they are topics that need to be explored because great interest among attendees has been expressed on these topics. They don't just make them up and see who will come.

As a University, each college or department within ACU is seeking to build a higher quality of education. The College of Business Administration is a clear example. Recently, a study showed that COBA graduate students receive employment around the US and the world at a higher and faster rate than any university in the US, including all Ivy League Schools. In addition, pre-med students at ACU are accepted into medical school at a rate of 85%, more than twice the national average. The pre-veterinarian program has a 100% acceptance rate at Texas A&M University Vet School, the only Vet school in Texas. No other Texas university (including Texas A&M) can make that claim. I could go on about other departments, but you get the picture. It is a quality school offering a quality education.
Bro. Brite: Congratulations on your sons choice of the ACU Business School. And the advice that you gave was surely sound. But we are not exactly debating here the new and different things that each and every college student hears and sees, especially freshmen. He may not be challenged by the teaching of evolution or worried about the God particle, and although I dont know what there is to do in Abilene I suspect that there is beer, booze and sex aplenty. Maybe, like many, he will sit up all night in the dorm eating pizza and arguing how to save the world, and maybe even vote for the Democrats. You are correct that not everyone associated with Churches of Christ hold to one particular idea on any number of topics. I do not have the same exact hang-ups, so to speak, as the moderators of this site and there are some areas where I question their conclusions, but at the same time I am in unity with them and I expect unity within the brotherhood that seemingly ACU is no longer teaching.

Of the big five schools, only OCU has a Department of Biblical Studies, the others all switching to theology. Frankly, the young preachers coming from these schools are often deficient in their Bible knowledge and understanding (of course not all), but the concept of the Bible school training preachers which was so successful for so many years seems to be gone. The "modern" ideas have not necessarily been all that successful.
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William
William

July 8th, 2012, 5:14 pm #18

You don't have to believe any of the Bible. However, the Bible--Primarily the Prophets by the Spirit of Christ and the prophecies made more perfect by Jesus Christ--is defined as that upon which the church is edified which in context always means EDUCATED. Since the qahal, synagogue, ekklesia or church was to make known the manifold wisdom of God, the task and curriculum is not that difficult. Preacher's Schools are sect-focused and it is left to godly elders--even those who TAKE the oversight--to train men for service.

Just as a false prophet worked against the true prophets, the mark of a false teacher is one who does not teach that which is a left memory.

Almost without exception the historic church has been Apostolic: that means that if the Apostles do not reveal it then it is not part of the Christian system.

By definition their field is 'theology' and not 'Bible.' Otherwise they would teach the Bible rather than the text books of those who have been most violent in decrying the old Church of Christ. Just ignore the "bad" church and assume that there is not one faithful mainline Church, the only tast is still to teach from the Bible and you pass the test of minimal ethics.

Richard Hughes, Doug Foster, Royce Money, Carroll D. Osburn, Leonard Allen etal have used the "conservatives" as a launch pad to attack the premise of the church of Christ.

That would be just fine but most of their "men" are built on their own "straw" and they prove that you cannot stack up enough doctorates in theology of "Missional Wisdon" to be Bible literate beyond the surface.

As a Bible College it has no other resource as authority even if they think it is all bunk. It would be wonderful if they burned their Ph.d and became disciples of the TEXT and the pagan religions which it exploits. They WOULD mock the following because I don't believe they have any interest in what Scripture says.




Regarding peer institutions, both an institution and a department may require accreditation. In order for the theology schools to be accredited they must be reviewed by representatives from other accredited institutions, and they must have a more or less independent advisory committee. Reviewing the sources of the terminal degrees at ACU there are Southern Methodist, Oxford, Yale Divinity School, Fuller Theological, Vanderbilt, Emmanuel College(University of Toronto), Harvard, Duke, University of Iowa, North Carolina at Greensboro, Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Luther Seminary, Baylor, Southern California, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Notre Dame, Emory, Denver, and a couple from ACU. These are the sorts of places where the ACU, Pepperdine, DLC, etc., must be reviewed for accreditation. And these are the sorts of places we must send our students for their higher learning in religion if they seek an academic career. Although I have not examined the publications from the ACU School of Theology, in broad education circles the ACU faculty would be well regarded for its diversity. I note that there are none with a doctorate from Harding, DLU, etc.

The change in emphasis of CoC colleges from Bible programs and preacher training to programs teaching theologians means that overall, ACU (and others) does a poor job of representing the principles of the brotherhood in order, basically, to be like the nations around them. I am in an academic household, and I do not argue the worth of the schools of theology in general, but there does appear to have been some seduction. So why is anyone surprised that in bringing in those whose studies make us question and evaluate, etc., result in a lectureship with topics filled with goofiness. Think of what kind of equivalent topic to the one on the Twilight books could be offered at an engineering or science convention, and you would conclude that it was a junk science convention. Now, every once in awhile a little levity is in order. I once read through the presentation topics of a convention of dermatologists and the featured speaker was going to address the itch. Apparently, nobody knows exactly what an itch is, or where it goes when it gets scratched. But I dont think that Mdm. Heath is being the least bit light spirited, I think that she is offering up an intended academic paper.

Most colleges and college departments establish a list of current similar peer institutions: I would guess Hardin-Simmons, OCU, Pepperdine, DLU, Harding, maybe some schools like Butler, are on the current list. Most colleges and college departments establish a list of aspired peer institutions: I would guess TCU, SMU, Baylor, etc. This is all well and good; this paragraph is not offered so much as a criticism but as an observation, and I will even note here that the current dean of Yale Divinity is a member of the Churches of Christ, and he was previously a department head at Notre Dame. None the less, when we fill our departments of theology with PhDs from schools of theology and religion where there may even be an atheistic presence the need to speak where the Bible speaks may be hard to maintain.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

July 8th, 2012, 5:36 pm #19

Why don't you with academic standing mount an effort to excise the ex-Bible department from ACU etal. I believe that it is true that one cannot become a university yearning for "standing" and remain faithful to those who sacrificed and founded the Bible Schools. Such a school even contrary to the Schools of Preaching would not make it their goal to "place" preachers and become a clearing house.

A liberal is one who understands what Scripture says and simply says "I don't believe it." Fine: he should not sell his body masked as a Bible scholar. I don't believe that the new spawn of professors have any interest in the Bible other than as a platform to attract children of too-easily fooled parents.

I am not sure that one trained recently in colleges--gone universities would disqualify him from changing his stripes. Starr said that he could worship like a Baptist to become head of a university.
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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

July 9th, 2012, 12:08 pm #20

[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]Source: The Christian Chronicle (/Articles)[/color]
From the April 2012 Archives.
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[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]ACU revises long-held policy prohibiting dancing at events
[/color]

[color=#000000" size="4" face="times]FROM STAFF REPORTS | THE CHRISTIAN CHRONICLE[/color]

[color=#000000" size="3.5" face="times]ABILENE, TEXAS - Abilene Christian University has revised its long-held policy of prohibiting dancing at events hosted by official student organizations.

"This is part of an effort on our part to be more real with our students who are young adults," said Jean-Noel Thompson, ACU's vice president for student life and dean of students.

In the past, ACU's students have been allowed to participate in university-sponsored events in which dance is a cultural expression or public performance. Student-sponsored organizations that want to have dancing at their on- or off-campus events will now need to gain approval of their venue and music list. Staff advisers also must be present at the event.

Thompson said the decision to revise the policy came after several years of discussion and research of policies at nearly 80 faith-based colleges and universities.

"We've found compelling reasons to provide appropriate venues for dancing on our campus for two reasons: It helps us influence or encourage students to show appropriate conduct in social settings where dancing is taking place," Thompson said. "We also believe the change will enhance the experience our students have while on our campus.

"In making this change, we're acting to make sure students can participate in this activity in a safe, supervised environment one that gives us the opportunity to proactively influence them in modeling appropriate Christian behavior," he added.

Thompson also noted that there was no blanket statement regarding the type of music or dance genre that will be accepted, only that the dance form "honors us, those around them and God."

Dozens of readers commented on the policy change on The Christian Chronicle's news blog, with some praising the decision and others questioning it.

-------------------

From the April 2012 Print Edition.

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Perhaps next someone could post an article about the moral corruption of ACU allowing students to wear shorts to class.
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