B
B

July 31st, 2012, 1:08 pm #31

"B", I don't have a problem about what Jesus said or any of his teachings as written in the New Testament. I have a problem with YOUR opinions on IM. Jesus didn't condemn IM, "YOU" did.
The truth is that Jesus explicitly authorized vocal music, but He did not authorize the addition of IM or any other kind of music. That's not opinion; that's a FACT, Rac. However, it looks like RACNOR, DAVE, and others of similar mindset have decided that the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command is just too old-fashioned to follow in today's adrenalin-driven, entertainment-oriented society, so they've elected to thumb their noses at it.

Racnor claims that he has no problem with Jesus' teachings in the New Testament. I'm sure Dave would make the same claim. OK, then Racnor and Dave should be willing to abide by Jesus' teachings as written without adding to them or taking from them. Jesus said to sing and make melody in our hearts. He stopped there. Are Racnor and Dave also willing to stop there? Are Racnor and Dave willing to abide by the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, or will they continue to thumb their noses at it?

People do not abide by Jesus' teachings when they persist in polluting those teachings with man-contrived doctrines. Supporting IM because it "enhances" or "accompanies" our singing is a man-contrived doctrine because it's not found anywhere in the New Testament. Supporting IM because "God didn't say not to" is also a man-contrived doctrine because it's not found anywhere in the New Testament.

Racnor and Dave, do the RIGHT thing: Follow Jesus' teachings in the New Testament AS WRITTEN without embellishing them, tweaking them, altering them, or changing them in any way to suit your own personal desires.
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David Fields
David Fields

July 31st, 2012, 2:05 pm #32

Dear Fellow Madison Church of Christ Members;

A MESSAGE FROM THE ConcernedMembers

Our Job Is Not Over!

We have a plan that covers what we will be doing in the short and long range with three different phases.......

If you think back when you first learned about the real cause of the problems in our congregation, it probably hasn't been that long ago. Oh sure there are those that have known, but the large percentage of us didn't really know until somewhat recently.

You do have to wonder if things would have been different if someone had told us a year or so ago?

You know, I think people did try in their own way, and probably in the only way they could, and maybe we thought they were a little extreme.

I remember when Bob Johnson first told me what was going on and tried to show me the evidence. As much as I trusted Bob, I found it all rather hard to believe.

It wasn't until I sat down and read the material, that I realized what he said was true!

We should not expect anyone to believe us, unless they have read the material.

We are now in a situation that is addressed in ; Ezekiel 33:1-6. We have become the "Watchman". We are aware of information that affects our fellow members spiritual life. We are under an obligation to warn them. What they do with that information is then up to them.

I think we realize that we are not going to win many battles in the future, in fact only those the Lord wants us to win.

The battle at Madison Church of Christ is not about financially overburdened realestate. It is about the souls of our fellow members.

Before we move on to other churches, or before we can be relieved of this burden of knowledge we must try to inform as many others as possible.

There are some 314,000 churches in the U.S.A. That's a lot of souls! For some of us this could be a life long job.

Before we warn other churches and their members, we have a job to finish here. We have put together a three Phase program.

PHASE I

The first phase is warning our brothers and sisters in Madison, at the Church of Christ.

There is a book ( What Happened At The Madison Church of Christ?) being printed as you read this. This book covers a lot of the information for folks that have not accessed our web site at:

The book size was necessary to communicate the amount of information we need to relay.

The book is going to be made available to every Madison Church of Christ member FREE.

The first printed editions will be available through any of the ConcernedMembers, at 15 locations in Nashville, and downloadable and printable on the web.

We are not sure how long phase I will take. At it's completion we will begin phase II.


PHASE II

For 60 years Madison Church of Christ has been a beacon of light to the world. I think it could still be a beacon. But, this time it may be a beacon of either success or failure of the "Contemporary/Community Church Movement". At this time only the Lord knows which that may be.

This phase begins with us telling the world about the troubled waters in churches across America.

We will begin in the Greater Nashville Area.

Through advertisements in newspapers, and on the web we will try to bring folks in to our dedicated web site at: http://www.ConcernedMembers.com

Here they will have the resources and information to understand and cope with the changes they may find in their church. There will be links to ConcernedMembers web sites all over the country telling their story, and their successes and failures.


PHASE III

This is the beginning of our direct mail program. We will start with all the Church of Christ congregations in Tennessee.

We want to thank all the members for their overwhelming support.
Lets get started, we have a big job.

Thanks

ConcernedMembers

========================
Posts made prior to 10-23-2002 have been archived.
<a href="http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumar ... 4a.txt">[b]
Click here to read the archive.[/b]</a>
========================
I quote the following: "Now since God doesn't even address PA systems and the other things like restrooms and podiums, does He even need to authorize them? No. Why? Because He knows that having such items will not impact His explicit, New Testament doctrines."

We now have a certified concernedmember's vicar that speaks for God ("Because He Knows..."). Didn't know you had it in you B!


________________________

David Fields used "Choices" as this message's author.
Last edited by madisonchurchofchrist on August 1st, 2012, 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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B
B

August 1st, 2012, 5:57 am #33

If you follow God, you follow His commands and stop where He stops. If God issues a command, you follow the specifications within that command and STOP where God stops. To do so is to comply with the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command. Now Dave, on the other hand, has previously said that we may add instrumental music if we wish, because it "aids" and "enhances" and "accompanies" our singing. Did God really tell Dave all that, or could it be that Dave himself has turned around and played "vicar of God" and would speak for God? God in the New Testament mentions absolutely NOTHING about adding instrumental music for purposes of aiding, enhancing, accompanying, or embellishing our singing in any form or fashion. Therefore, we may not have instrumental music.

As far as music is concerned, if you follow God, you comply by singing, making melody in your heart, and you stop there, which excludes instrumental music or any other forms of music.

If, however, you choose to follow men like Dave, an "elder" of all things, you thumb your nose at the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command and ADD instruments to suit your own personal preferences.
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David Fields
David Fields

August 1st, 2012, 11:02 am #34

Dear Fellow Madison Church of Christ Members;

A MESSAGE FROM THE ConcernedMembers

Our Job Is Not Over!

We have a plan that covers what we will be doing in the short and long range with three different phases.......

If you think back when you first learned about the real cause of the problems in our congregation, it probably hasn't been that long ago. Oh sure there are those that have known, but the large percentage of us didn't really know until somewhat recently.

You do have to wonder if things would have been different if someone had told us a year or so ago?

You know, I think people did try in their own way, and probably in the only way they could, and maybe we thought they were a little extreme.

I remember when Bob Johnson first told me what was going on and tried to show me the evidence. As much as I trusted Bob, I found it all rather hard to believe.

It wasn't until I sat down and read the material, that I realized what he said was true!

We should not expect anyone to believe us, unless they have read the material.

We are now in a situation that is addressed in ; Ezekiel 33:1-6. We have become the "Watchman". We are aware of information that affects our fellow members spiritual life. We are under an obligation to warn them. What they do with that information is then up to them.

I think we realize that we are not going to win many battles in the future, in fact only those the Lord wants us to win.

The battle at Madison Church of Christ is not about financially overburdened realestate. It is about the souls of our fellow members.

Before we move on to other churches, or before we can be relieved of this burden of knowledge we must try to inform as many others as possible.

There are some 314,000 churches in the U.S.A. That's a lot of souls! For some of us this could be a life long job.

Before we warn other churches and their members, we have a job to finish here. We have put together a three Phase program.

PHASE I

The first phase is warning our brothers and sisters in Madison, at the Church of Christ.

There is a book ( What Happened At The Madison Church of Christ?) being printed as you read this. This book covers a lot of the information for folks that have not accessed our web site at:

The book size was necessary to communicate the amount of information we need to relay.

The book is going to be made available to every Madison Church of Christ member FREE.

The first printed editions will be available through any of the ConcernedMembers, at 15 locations in Nashville, and downloadable and printable on the web.

We are not sure how long phase I will take. At it's completion we will begin phase II.


PHASE II

For 60 years Madison Church of Christ has been a beacon of light to the world. I think it could still be a beacon. But, this time it may be a beacon of either success or failure of the "Contemporary/Community Church Movement". At this time only the Lord knows which that may be.

This phase begins with us telling the world about the troubled waters in churches across America.

We will begin in the Greater Nashville Area.

Through advertisements in newspapers, and on the web we will try to bring folks in to our dedicated web site at: http://www.ConcernedMembers.com

Here they will have the resources and information to understand and cope with the changes they may find in their church. There will be links to ConcernedMembers web sites all over the country telling their story, and their successes and failures.


PHASE III

This is the beginning of our direct mail program. We will start with all the Church of Christ congregations in Tennessee.

We want to thank all the members for their overwhelming support.
Lets get started, we have a big job.

Thanks

ConcernedMembers

========================
Posts made prior to 10-23-2002 have been archived.
<a href="http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumar ... 4a.txt">[b]
Click here to read the archive.[/b]</a>
========================
B said "Now Dave, on the other hand, has previously said that we may add instrumental music if we wish,

Show, in quotes, where I SAID that, especially the part about "if we wish"


This is where it gets good....


__________________________

David Fields used "Smoking Out a False Teacher" as this message's author.
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on August 2nd, 2012, 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

August 1st, 2012, 11:04 am #35

If you follow God, you follow His commands and stop where He stops. If God issues a command, you follow the specifications within that command and STOP where God stops. To do so is to comply with the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command. Now Dave, on the other hand, has previously said that we may add instrumental music if we wish, because it "aids" and "enhances" and "accompanies" our singing. Did God really tell Dave all that, or could it be that Dave himself has turned around and played "vicar of God" and would speak for God? God in the New Testament mentions absolutely NOTHING about adding instrumental music for purposes of aiding, enhancing, accompanying, or embellishing our singing in any form or fashion. Therefore, we may not have instrumental music.

As far as music is concerned, if you follow God, you comply by singing, making melody in your heart, and you stop there, which excludes instrumental music or any other forms of music.

If, however, you choose to follow men like Dave, an "elder" of all things, you thumb your nose at the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command and ADD instruments to suit your own personal preferences.
Nice touch on calling me vicar when you were labeled as such....great penmanship
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B
B

August 1st, 2012, 3:21 pm #36

Dave was caught doing exactly what he accused B of doing. Better luck next time, my boy.
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Scripture
Scripture

August 1st, 2012, 3:29 pm #37

Donnie, you change my alias to anything you want. If you like Dave Fields, then use it. It is how you folks operate. Maybe you can suggest that B use his real name? Never mind, that would take away a double standard. Don't do that.
B said "This "elder" APPARENTLY thinks it's perfectly acceptable to ADD more to Christ's explicit commands than what Christ has specified therein, all on the false, man-made reasoning of "God/Jesus didn't say not to." SPECIFICALLY, this so-called "elder" sees nothing wrong if congregations ADD instrumental music to worship God when Jesus through Paul specifies vocal music and stops there. This "elder" guy APPARENTLY thinks that "God/Jesus didn't say not to" is part of Jesus' Gospel. Here's some news for this guy who plays at being an "elder..."

Notice that I capitalized the three words: APPARENTLY, SPECIFICALLY, and APPARENTLY again. B is a false teacher and therefore would insert these words (capitzalized) to make it seem that I had made these ASSUMPTIONS. Exactly the modus operandi of concernedmembers. Just as much as good can spread so can evil. B and Donnie Cruz proves this very fact. They live it every day. I have never said that "God didn't say to" but I don't have to....B and Donnie will say it for me. God's Word in Acts 20: 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
However, men like B and Donnie Cruz don't accept this....they don't hold to God's Word that the Holy Spirit had put them in their place of leadership. Men like B and Donnie Cruz want to show that they know better and want another direction different from what God wants. Because the Madison elders decide not to go with what these men want.....then these evil men want to condemn these elders. The elders at Madison haven't gone against the Scriptures but against what Donnie, B, and others want. So Donnie and B, like children, have decided to throw little tantrums because they didn't get their way. Donnie and others have decided to create this evil site because they are selfish and didn't get their way with the elders. They want their traditions, traditions of men, to be upheld. Jesus and the apostles didn't dress up for worship, nor did they know four part harmony, yet Donnie and such men say that when they put on their coat and ties and sing four part harmony that it isn't traditions of men. If they aren't traditions of men, then what are they? Most of what we do on Sunday is traditions of men, which in and of itself isn't wrong. It goes terribly wrong when men cater to one set of traditions over another set.

+++++++++++++++++

NOTE: "Madison Rules, ABSee the Cat, You Pick! as "Your Name" did not pass. When you become an elder of Madison (coming from Clemson), your "Madison Rules" ID will be more meaningful, appropriate and applicable. But not until then.
With all respect to those opposing changes to the music, they do have every right to question such a signficant change. Elders are appointed by the Holy Spirit, but in keeping with the Reformation and the Restoration, every member is a priest of God. It's an unfortunate church where the members are disenfranchised. Calvin and Luther were against the "Popes of Christ". D. Lipscomb said that for men to assume that they have "office" is popish. One of the big problems in this atmosphere in the concept of the "elders" or "shepherds" themselves. It is unfortunate that there is such a power struggle that elders select their own, rather than to place this out to the congregation. The only explanation for this is that there are two churches meeting at Madison, and not one church.

As encouragement, consider these verses:


Romans 14:10 "But why do you judge your brother? or why do you set at nothing your brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11For it is written, As I live, said the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God."

Both sides are going to lose. The big question is where does this stop. It's like the camel who wanted on a cold windy night to stick his head in the window. The man inside obliged. Then the camel wanted to have his head through the door. The man obliged. Then the camel complained about the draft. The man closed the door. Then the camel said "It's too stuffy if here for both you and me. Why don't you leave."

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B
B

August 1st, 2012, 4:29 pm #38

B said "Now Dave, on the other hand, has previously said that we may add instrumental music if we wish,

Show, in quotes, where I SAID that, especially the part about "if we wish"


This is where it gets good....


__________________________

David Fields used "Smoking Out a False Teacher" as this message's author.
We know Dave has said on more than one occasion that we may add IM because it "aids," "enhances," and "accompanies" our singing. BTW, none of those reasons for having IM are found in the New Testament. If Dave really followed the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, he would teach others to stick only with vocal music, to avoid IM in worship, and his posts would reflect that, but they don't.

If our readers have followed Dave's posts for awhile, they know that, even though his church is an a cappella church, he sees nothing wrong when other churches elect to have IM if it is their preference, if it is their wish.

Does Dave deny that sentiment? It doesn't have to be a "quote"; it's a synopsis of Dave's "belief" about IM.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 1st, 2012, 8:32 pm #39

Bumped for update table comparing Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3.
Not last update
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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

August 1st, 2012, 9:07 pm #40

I think it is sad that the best and most biblical post on this thread, the one by Roger, has drawn no attention or responses.
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