Racnor
Racnor

July 30th, 2012, 12:43 pm #21

It's like this: If Jesus sent an angel to earth disguised as a simple preacher who urged everyone to follow the teachings of Christ and His apostles as written in the New Testament, Racnor would probably respond with something like, "Well, mister, thanks for just giving us YOUR opinion on this matter."
It's like this: If Jesus sent an angel to earth disguised as a simple preacher who urged everyone to follow the teachings of Christ and His apostles as written in the New Testament, Racnor would probably respond with something like, "Well, mister, thanks for just giving us YOUR opinion on this matter."


******************************



Hey "B", YOU'RE no angel!
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David Fields
David Fields

July 30th, 2012, 12:49 pm #22

Dear Fellow Madison Church of Christ Members;

A MESSAGE FROM THE ConcernedMembers

Our Job Is Not Over!

We have a plan that covers what we will be doing in the short and long range with three different phases.......

If you think back when you first learned about the real cause of the problems in our congregation, it probably hasn't been that long ago. Oh sure there are those that have known, but the large percentage of us didn't really know until somewhat recently.

You do have to wonder if things would have been different if someone had told us a year or so ago?

You know, I think people did try in their own way, and probably in the only way they could, and maybe we thought they were a little extreme.

I remember when Bob Johnson first told me what was going on and tried to show me the evidence. As much as I trusted Bob, I found it all rather hard to believe.

It wasn't until I sat down and read the material, that I realized what he said was true!

We should not expect anyone to believe us, unless they have read the material.

We are now in a situation that is addressed in ; Ezekiel 33:1-6. We have become the "Watchman". We are aware of information that affects our fellow members spiritual life. We are under an obligation to warn them. What they do with that information is then up to them.

I think we realize that we are not going to win many battles in the future, in fact only those the Lord wants us to win.

The battle at Madison Church of Christ is not about financially overburdened realestate. It is about the souls of our fellow members.

Before we move on to other churches, or before we can be relieved of this burden of knowledge we must try to inform as many others as possible.

There are some 314,000 churches in the U.S.A. That's a lot of souls! For some of us this could be a life long job.

Before we warn other churches and their members, we have a job to finish here. We have put together a three Phase program.

PHASE I

The first phase is warning our brothers and sisters in Madison, at the Church of Christ.

There is a book ( What Happened At The Madison Church of Christ?) being printed as you read this. This book covers a lot of the information for folks that have not accessed our web site at:

The book size was necessary to communicate the amount of information we need to relay.

The book is going to be made available to every Madison Church of Christ member FREE.

The first printed editions will be available through any of the ConcernedMembers, at 15 locations in Nashville, and downloadable and printable on the web.

We are not sure how long phase I will take. At it's completion we will begin phase II.


PHASE II

For 60 years Madison Church of Christ has been a beacon of light to the world. I think it could still be a beacon. But, this time it may be a beacon of either success or failure of the "Contemporary/Community Church Movement". At this time only the Lord knows which that may be.

This phase begins with us telling the world about the troubled waters in churches across America.

We will begin in the Greater Nashville Area.

Through advertisements in newspapers, and on the web we will try to bring folks in to our dedicated web site at: http://www.ConcernedMembers.com

Here they will have the resources and information to understand and cope with the changes they may find in their church. There will be links to ConcernedMembers web sites all over the country telling their story, and their successes and failures.


PHASE III

This is the beginning of our direct mail program. We will start with all the Church of Christ congregations in Tennessee.

We want to thank all the members for their overwhelming support.
Lets get started, we have a big job.

Thanks

ConcernedMembers

========================
Posts made prior to 10-23-2002 have been archived.
<a href="http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumar ... 4a.txt">[b]
Click here to read the archive.[/b]</a>
========================
B said "The POINT is that even though the New Testament only instructs us to use vocal music, it has NOT given us permission to add instrumental music or any other kind of music to "aid" or "accompany" our singing."

The POINT is that even though the New Testament only instructs us to use vocal music, it has NOT given us permission to add a PA system to "aid" or "accompany" our singing.


See B, how your reasoning is so skewed and biased?

Give me your best shot about the PA and how instrumental music and a PA system is like comparing apples and oranges. It always did and does make for a good tall tale.


________________________

Author: David Fields, not "St. Lous Cardinals [sic]"
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on July 31st, 2012, 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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David Fields
David Fields

July 30th, 2012, 7:15 pm #23

Dear Fellow Madison Church of Christ Members;

A MESSAGE FROM THE ConcernedMembers

Our Job Is Not Over!

We have a plan that covers what we will be doing in the short and long range with three different phases.......

If you think back when you first learned about the real cause of the problems in our congregation, it probably hasn't been that long ago. Oh sure there are those that have known, but the large percentage of us didn't really know until somewhat recently.

You do have to wonder if things would have been different if someone had told us a year or so ago?

You know, I think people did try in their own way, and probably in the only way they could, and maybe we thought they were a little extreme.

I remember when Bob Johnson first told me what was going on and tried to show me the evidence. As much as I trusted Bob, I found it all rather hard to believe.

It wasn't until I sat down and read the material, that I realized what he said was true!

We should not expect anyone to believe us, unless they have read the material.

We are now in a situation that is addressed in ; Ezekiel 33:1-6. We have become the "Watchman". We are aware of information that affects our fellow members spiritual life. We are under an obligation to warn them. What they do with that information is then up to them.

I think we realize that we are not going to win many battles in the future, in fact only those the Lord wants us to win.

The battle at Madison Church of Christ is not about financially overburdened realestate. It is about the souls of our fellow members.

Before we move on to other churches, or before we can be relieved of this burden of knowledge we must try to inform as many others as possible.

There are some 314,000 churches in the U.S.A. That's a lot of souls! For some of us this could be a life long job.

Before we warn other churches and their members, we have a job to finish here. We have put together a three Phase program.

PHASE I

The first phase is warning our brothers and sisters in Madison, at the Church of Christ.

There is a book ( What Happened At The Madison Church of Christ?) being printed as you read this. This book covers a lot of the information for folks that have not accessed our web site at:

The book size was necessary to communicate the amount of information we need to relay.

The book is going to be made available to every Madison Church of Christ member FREE.

The first printed editions will be available through any of the ConcernedMembers, at 15 locations in Nashville, and downloadable and printable on the web.

We are not sure how long phase I will take. At it's completion we will begin phase II.


PHASE II

For 60 years Madison Church of Christ has been a beacon of light to the world. I think it could still be a beacon. But, this time it may be a beacon of either success or failure of the "Contemporary/Community Church Movement". At this time only the Lord knows which that may be.

This phase begins with us telling the world about the troubled waters in churches across America.

We will begin in the Greater Nashville Area.

Through advertisements in newspapers, and on the web we will try to bring folks in to our dedicated web site at: http://www.ConcernedMembers.com

Here they will have the resources and information to understand and cope with the changes they may find in their church. There will be links to ConcernedMembers web sites all over the country telling their story, and their successes and failures.


PHASE III

This is the beginning of our direct mail program. We will start with all the Church of Christ congregations in Tennessee.

We want to thank all the members for their overwhelming support.
Lets get started, we have a big job.

Thanks

ConcernedMembers

========================
Posts made prior to 10-23-2002 have been archived.
<a href="http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumar ... 4a.txt">[b]
Click here to read the archive.[/b]</a>
========================
Donnie said "very complex harmony that creates an atmosphere for the congregation of the praise-team-dependency syndrome. Meaning that the congregation alone will have difficulty singing without the worship-leading Praise Team."

When four part harmony was introduced way back when.....I can imagine those singing unison said the same thing.



________________________

David Fields used "A Capella" [sic] as this message's author.
Last edited by madisonchurchofchrist on August 1st, 2012, 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Roger
Roger

July 30th, 2012, 8:29 pm #24

Dave argues for instrumental music, because he says it "aids" and "accompanies" the singing. That is merely Dave's opinion that has no sound, scriptural basis. Dave doesn't seem to realize that the New Testament only says to sing and make melody in the heart, but it says NOTHING about adding instruments to "aid" or "accompany" our singing. Therefore, Dave and others ADD TO AND EXCEED the New Testament directive when they support the use of instruments. Is Dave not familiar with the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command? He should be, since he has apparently chosen to thumb his nose at it. If we really want to do the right and safe thing, we will follow the specifications within God's/Jesus' commands and not go beyond what He has written about them in the New Testament.

The New Testament directive only specifies vocal music and stops there. We must do the same. Dave says instruments do not prevent us from singing, but that's really not the point, and Dave should know that. The POINT is that even though the New Testament only instructs us to use vocal music, it has NOT given us permission to add instrumental music or any other kind of music to "aid" or "accompany" our singing. The neither-add-to-nor-take-from command takes care of that. Bible believers will be content with the New Testament directive about vocal music, whereas change agents and other malcontents will go over God's/Jesus' head and do as they please.

What about volume, pitch, tempo, and singing in unison or harmony? Does the New Testament provide any directives about them? No. Therefore, they are not doctrinal issues and we may implement them. On the other hand, the music with which we praise God IS definitely a doctrinal issue, because the New Testament not only addresses it but goes on to specify vocal music. Since instrumental music doesn't even enter the picture, we may not use it. As I said earlier, the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command takes care of that.
Just a few thoughts from someone who stumbled upon this site.

***BACKGROUND: I have a BA in Music Education, a minor in Bible, and over a quarter century's experience as a leader of corporate worship in churches of Christ.
To clarify, I am not an advocate for either instrumental or purely vocal music. I will keep my own councel in this matter so my comments are not misconstrued.

***TO THE READER: If you question whether Ephesians 5 prohibits instrumental music, read the entire passage in context. Verse 19 has been used for many years as a "proof text" for the exclusion of instruments in worship. If you do not know the term, it is defined as, "The practice of using quotations from a document (often, but not always, a book of the Bible) to establish a proposition. Using discrete quotations is generally seen as decontextualised." Read. Pray. Fast, if necessary. Ask God for wisdom, and He will give it to you.

***SUGGEESTION: Rather than be caught in an endless debate, I ask you to read the whole chapter in context and discern for yourself the agenda of the writer . If you don't have the chapter handy, here is a link to it http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NLT). I challenge you to review several translations if you want to test the true meaning.

Ephesians 5 (selected quotations for context)
1 Imitate God, therefore, in everything you do,
2 Live a life filled with love, following the example of Christ. He
3 Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such
4 Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokesthese are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God.
7 Dont participate in the things these people do.
8 ...So live as people of light!
11 Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness...
12 It is shameful even to talk about the things that ungodly people do in secret. 1
21 And further, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 For wives, this means submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
23 For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church.
25 For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church.
28 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies.
33 So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Now fill in the blanks...

"15 So be careful how you _____. Dont _____ like fools, but like those who are wise. 16 Make the most of every opportunity in these evil days. 17 Dont _____ thoughtlessly, but understand what the Lord wants you to do. 18 Dont be ______________, because that will ruin your ______. Instead, be _____________________, 19 singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs __________________, and making music to the Lord _________________. 20 And ____________________________to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

***DRAWING A CONCLUSION: Ask yourself,
1. What is the overall theme of this passage?
2. What is the writer arguing for/against?
3. When reading verses 15-20, do you understand the context as inclusive of worship (at any place, at any time, personal or as a group)?
4. If so, how did you arrive at your conclusion:_________________________
5. If not, how did you arrive at your conclusion:_________________________
6. Do you believe verse 19 suggests
a. Singing only in our hearts (no vocalizing)
b. A vocal outpouring of the heart
c. An attitude of worship and thankfulness
d. A command to worship only with the heart
e. A command to worship only with the heart and voice
f. An attitude of worship that neither prohibits or suggests instruments
d. Other

***RESOURCES FOR FURTHER DISCUSSION: In regards to discerning truth and constructive dialog, which part of Galatians 5 does this site best represent:
a. love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control
b. hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy;

***ACTION: If you find yourself in a church body that is acting against your understanding of this passage, here are instructions from Matthew 18 on how to settle disputes:

"15 If your brother or sister sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

[b.] Matthew 18:15 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a
fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verses 21 and 35.
[c.] Matthew 18:15 Some manuscripts sins against you

***POST SCRIPT: There are no clear answers on how to find resolution past this instruction, however, we can be sure about this online community and what service it is providing based on 1 Corinthians 6:1-8:

"When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, ..."

I happen to be a minister, but I wonder how many unbelievers have stumbled upon this community? No matter what your direction after reading this, do not do as you have seen here. It is not in keeping with our clear instructions to keep matters of the body of Christ out of this generation's court of public opinion; the internet.

Peace

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

July 30th, 2012, 10:44 pm #25

Dear Fellow Madison Church of Christ Members;

A MESSAGE FROM THE ConcernedMembers

Our Job Is Not Over!

We have a plan that covers what we will be doing in the short and long range with three different phases.......

If you think back when you first learned about the real cause of the problems in our congregation, it probably hasn't been that long ago. Oh sure there are those that have known, but the large percentage of us didn't really know until somewhat recently.

You do have to wonder if things would have been different if someone had told us a year or so ago?

You know, I think people did try in their own way, and probably in the only way they could, and maybe we thought they were a little extreme.

I remember when Bob Johnson first told me what was going on and tried to show me the evidence. As much as I trusted Bob, I found it all rather hard to believe.

It wasn't until I sat down and read the material, that I realized what he said was true!

We should not expect anyone to believe us, unless they have read the material.

We are now in a situation that is addressed in ; Ezekiel 33:1-6. We have become the "Watchman". We are aware of information that affects our fellow members spiritual life. We are under an obligation to warn them. What they do with that information is then up to them.

I think we realize that we are not going to win many battles in the future, in fact only those the Lord wants us to win.

The battle at Madison Church of Christ is not about financially overburdened realestate. It is about the souls of our fellow members.

Before we move on to other churches, or before we can be relieved of this burden of knowledge we must try to inform as many others as possible.

There are some 314,000 churches in the U.S.A. That's a lot of souls! For some of us this could be a life long job.

Before we warn other churches and their members, we have a job to finish here. We have put together a three Phase program.

PHASE I

The first phase is warning our brothers and sisters in Madison, at the Church of Christ.

There is a book ( What Happened At The Madison Church of Christ?) being printed as you read this. This book covers a lot of the information for folks that have not accessed our web site at:

The book size was necessary to communicate the amount of information we need to relay.

The book is going to be made available to every Madison Church of Christ member FREE.

The first printed editions will be available through any of the ConcernedMembers, at 15 locations in Nashville, and downloadable and printable on the web.

We are not sure how long phase I will take. At it's completion we will begin phase II.


PHASE II

For 60 years Madison Church of Christ has been a beacon of light to the world. I think it could still be a beacon. But, this time it may be a beacon of either success or failure of the "Contemporary/Community Church Movement". At this time only the Lord knows which that may be.

This phase begins with us telling the world about the troubled waters in churches across America.

We will begin in the Greater Nashville Area.

Through advertisements in newspapers, and on the web we will try to bring folks in to our dedicated web site at: http://www.ConcernedMembers.com

Here they will have the resources and information to understand and cope with the changes they may find in their church. There will be links to ConcernedMembers web sites all over the country telling their story, and their successes and failures.


PHASE III

This is the beginning of our direct mail program. We will start with all the Church of Christ congregations in Tennessee.

We want to thank all the members for their overwhelming support.
Lets get started, we have a big job.

Thanks

ConcernedMembers

========================
Posts made prior to 10-23-2002 have been archived.
<a href="http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumar ... 4a.txt">[b]
Click here to read the archive.[/b]</a>
========================
I should never be a question of what can I get away with but what does Scripture say. God has many times excluded our personal opinions or our collective councils to go beyond being A School of Christ.

I like to give the Spirit OF Christ, the prophets, apostles and all translators to have been ALERT to the fact that if God wants people sing AND play an instrument they had and used TWO FORMS.

First, Scripture could and ALWAYS did indicate to play or pluck (you can't psallo a flute) IN ADDITION to naming WHAT is to be plucked. From the meaning of Psallo, the new Hair Plucking Minister may make your hairs twang.

Second, the Spirit OF Christ was pretty smart! He would have used a COMPOUND word just like a normal human. If you tell someone to PLAY you MUST tell then what or how to PLAY.

Here are some words with evil connotations which could have been but WERE NOT used. Again, not telling you what to do but hoping for at least letting Christ in the Prophets and Apostles have their say before you decide to do something different if discording.

humnd-e ,
A. sing a hymn or song of praise, Pl.Lg.682a, LXX 1 Ch. 25.6: generally, sing, thrnon A.Ag.990 (lyr.).
II. = khrsmde [sorcery], E.Ion6; cf. humndia 2. [u^ in A. l.c., v. humnos fin.]

Plat. Laws 682a Indeed, these verses of his, as well as those he utters concerning the Cyclopes, are in a kind of unison with the voices of both God and Nature. For being divinely inspired in its chanting, the poetic tribe, with the aid of Graces and Muses, often grasps the truth of history.

1 Chronicles 25.6 All these were under the hands of their father for song in the house of Yahweh, with cymbals, psalteries, and harps, for the service of the house of God; Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman being under the order of the king.

H622 âsaph aw-saf' A primitive root; to gather for any purpose; hence to receive, take away, that is, remove (destroy, leave behind, put up, restore, etc.):assemble, bring, consume, destroy, fetch, gather (in, together, up again), X generally, get (him), lose, put all together, receive, recover [another from leprosy], (be) rereward, X surely, take (away, into, up), X utterly, withdraw.

yedûthûn H3038 probably from H3034 yâdâh A primitive root; used only as denominative from H3027 ; literally to use (that is, hold out) the hand; physically to throw (a stone, an arrow) at or away; especially to revere or worship (with extended hands); intensively to bemoan (by wringing the hands):cast (out), (make) confess (-ion), praise, shoot, (give) thank (-ful, -s, -sgiving).

humnd-ia , h,
A. singing of a hymn, hymning, CIG2715a22 (Stratonicea), Porph.Abst.2.34: pl., E.Hel.1434, Ps.-Luc.Philopatr.26, Artem.1.56.
2. = khrsmdia, prophetic strain, E.Ion682 (lyr.

The Levites prophesying with instruments performed as SOOTHSAYERS

humnd-os , on, A. singing hymns, korai Id.HF394 (lyr.); sophn then humndon Diog.Ath.1.5; humndoi, hoi, choral singers,

God HIDES Himself from the Wise or Sophists:

sophos , , on, A. skilled in any handicraft or art, clever, harmatlatas s. N.7.17; mantis Id.Th.382;
Margites Fr.2; but in this sense mostly of poets and musicians, Pi.O.1.9, P.1.42, 3.113; en kithara s. E.IT1238 (lyr.),

Pind. N. 7 And I expect that the story of Odysseus came to exceed his experiences, through .....the sweet songs of Homer,
.....since there is a certain solemnity in his lies and winged artfulness,
.....and poetic skill deceives, seducing us with stories,
.....and the heart of the mass of men is blind.
.....For if [25] they had been able to see the truth,
.....then mighty Aias, in anger over the arms, would never have planted in his chest the smooth sword

I'm too tired for this.

Last edited by Ken.Sublett on July 30th, 2012, 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

July 30th, 2012, 11:22 pm #26

Just a few thoughts from someone who stumbled upon this site.

***BACKGROUND: I have a BA in Music Education, a minor in Bible, and over a quarter century's experience as a leader of corporate worship in churches of Christ.
To clarify, I am not an advocate for either instrumental or purely vocal music. I will keep my own councel in this matter so my comments are not misconstrued.

***TO THE READER: If you question whether Ephesians 5 prohibits instrumental music, read the entire passage in context. Verse 19 has been used for many years as a "proof text" for the exclusion of instruments in worship. If you do not know the term, it is defined as, "The practice of using quotations from a document (often, but not always, a book of the Bible) to establish a proposition. Using discrete quotations is generally seen as decontextualised." Read. Pray. Fast, if necessary. Ask God for wisdom, and He will give it to you.

***SUGGEESTION: Rather than be caught in an endless debate, I ask you to read the whole chapter in context and discern for yourself the agenda of the writer . If you don't have the chapter handy, here is a link to it http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NLT). I challenge you to review several translations if you want to test the true meaning.

Ephesians 5 (selected quotations for context)
1 Imitate God, therefore, in everything you do,
2 Live a life filled with love, following the example of Christ. He
3 Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such
4 Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokesthese are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God.
7 Dont participate in the things these people do.
8 ...So live as people of light!
11 Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness...
12 It is shameful even to talk about the things that ungodly people do in secret. 1
21 And further, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 For wives, this means submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
23 For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church.
25 For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church.
28 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies.
33 So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Now fill in the blanks...

"15 So be careful how you _____. Dont _____ like fools, but like those who are wise. 16 Make the most of every opportunity in these evil days. 17 Dont _____ thoughtlessly, but understand what the Lord wants you to do. 18 Dont be ______________, because that will ruin your ______. Instead, be _____________________, 19 singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs __________________, and making music to the Lord _________________. 20 And ____________________________to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

***DRAWING A CONCLUSION: Ask yourself,
1. What is the overall theme of this passage?
2. What is the writer arguing for/against?
3. When reading verses 15-20, do you understand the context as inclusive of worship (at any place, at any time, personal or as a group)?
4. If so, how did you arrive at your conclusion:_________________________
5. If not, how did you arrive at your conclusion:_________________________
6. Do you believe verse 19 suggests
a. Singing only in our hearts (no vocalizing)
b. A vocal outpouring of the heart
c. An attitude of worship and thankfulness
d. A command to worship only with the heart
e. A command to worship only with the heart and voice
f. An attitude of worship that neither prohibits or suggests instruments
d. Other

***RESOURCES FOR FURTHER DISCUSSION: In regards to discerning truth and constructive dialog, which part of Galatians 5 does this site best represent:
a. love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control
b. hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy;

***ACTION: If you find yourself in a church body that is acting against your understanding of this passage, here are instructions from Matthew 18 on how to settle disputes:

"15 If your brother or sister sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

[b.] Matthew 18:15 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a
fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verses 21 and 35.
[c.] Matthew 18:15 Some manuscripts sins against you

***POST SCRIPT: There are no clear answers on how to find resolution past this instruction, however, we can be sure about this online community and what service it is providing based on 1 Corinthians 6:1-8:

"When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, ..."

I happen to be a minister, but I wonder how many unbelievers have stumbled upon this community? No matter what your direction after reading this, do not do as you have seen here. It is not in keeping with our clear instructions to keep matters of the body of Christ out of this generation's court of public opinion; the internet.

Peace

That's fine: just don't go around boasting about INFILTRATING and DIVERTING other peoples church house and church family so you can IMPOSE instruments and instrumentalists. God warned the elders about that and they refused to listen. That's when God gave them kings (and Levite Soothsayers" in His anger and then sent them beyond babylon from whence there was no return.


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B
B

July 31st, 2012, 1:30 am #27

B said "The POINT is that even though the New Testament only instructs us to use vocal music, it has NOT given us permission to add instrumental music or any other kind of music to "aid" or "accompany" our singing."

The POINT is that even though the New Testament only instructs us to use vocal music, it has NOT given us permission to add a PA system to "aid" or "accompany" our singing.


See B, how your reasoning is so skewed and biased?

Give me your best shot about the PA and how instrumental music and a PA system is like comparing apples and oranges. It always did and does make for a good tall tale.


________________________

Author: David Fields, not "St. Lous Cardinals [sic]"
Remember the movie The Shawshank Redemption? When Andy Dufresne finds new evidence that would free him from a life sentence in prison, he asks the warden to start the ball rolling for a new trial. But the warden isn't about to let Andy go, because the warden has Andy laundering money for kickbacks. When the warden denies Andy's request, Andy says, "How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?"

When a person persistently denies that comparing PA systems and instrumental music is like comparing apples and oranges, we can ask him the same two questions: "How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?"

Well, we don't really expect a person with such limited cerebral function to be capable of understanding, so the following summary is for discerning readers with readily functioning grey matter.

The New Testament addresses music for worship, which makes music a doctrinal issue. In fact, anything the New Testament explicitly addresses about worship and living the Christian life is a doctrinal issue. Since the New Testament specifies vocal music but not instrumental music, and since we must abide by the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, then we are not permitted to add other music like instrumental music. God need not say, "I forbid instrumental music," because the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command already covers that. God need not be redundant there.

On the other hand, since the New Testament doesn't address PA systems or a host of other items like restrooms, electric power, podiums, kitchens, carpets, pews, hymnals, church buildings, etc., etc., then they are not doctrinal issues. Whether or not we implement them does not impact the explicit doctrines in the New Testament.

It is foolish to attempt to "compare" a doctrinal issue like worship music with a non-doctrinal issue like PA systems. Does God authorize vocal music in the New Testament? Yes. Does God authorize the addition of any other kind of music in the New Testament? NO. Now since God doesn't even address PA systems and the other things like restrooms and podiums, does He even need to authorize them? No. Why? Because He knows that having such items will not impact His explicit, New Testament doctrines.

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B
B

July 31st, 2012, 2:03 am #28

It's like this: If Jesus sent an angel to earth disguised as a simple preacher who urged everyone to follow the teachings of Christ and His apostles as written in the New Testament, Racnor would probably respond with something like, "Well, mister, thanks for just giving us YOUR opinion on this matter."


******************************



Hey "B", YOU'RE no angel!
You know, to some folks, an angel just wouldn't do. If Jesus Himself appeared to certain people and said, "If you follow my teachings as written in the New Testament, you will have eternal life," I kinda think those certain people would still respond with, "Well, mister, thanks for just giving me YOUR opinion on this matter."

Which is easier: for a camel to go through the eye of a needle or for someone to enter heaven who thinks that Jesus' teachings in the New Testament are just "opinions"?



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Racnor
Racnor

July 31st, 2012, 2:53 am #29

"B", I don't have a problem about what Jesus said or any of his teachings as written in the New Testament. I have a problem with YOUR opinions on IM. Jesus didn't condemn IM, "YOU" did.
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B
B

July 31st, 2012, 3:21 am #30

You know, to some folks, an angel just wouldn't do. If Jesus Himself appeared to certain people and said, "If you follow my teachings as written in the New Testament, you will have eternal life," I kinda think those certain people would still respond with, "Well, mister, thanks for just giving me YOUR opinion on this matter."

Which is easier: for a camel to go through the eye of a needle or for someone to enter heaven who thinks that Jesus' teachings in the New Testament are just "opinions"?


Here's a thought for everyone, even Racnor, to consider: Follow the teachings of Jesus and His apostles as written in the New Testament, and you'll have nothing to worry about as far as eternity is concerned. Of course, if you're an atheist, an agnostic, or some other kind of unbeliever, that's just someone's "opinion."
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