A Revelation of Things to Come: Embracing the Change Agenda

Donnie
Donnie

June 11th, 2009, 8:49 pm #1

A REVELATION OF THINGS TO COME
(Note: Below is a letter received from a brother who has fully embraced the change agenda. It is both informative and chilling. For those who have not yet encountered this movement, this will help you see just what we are up against. JHW)


Brother John, It is my opinion that instrumental praise is not sinful. I pray that more and more people of the Church of Christ will come to what has been an enlightened understanding for me. I was brought up in the Church of Christ denomination ( yes, TODAY the "Church of Christ" is a denomination), and I have served as a deacon (3 years) and an elder (9 years), so I know the scriptures that are used to support the position against the use of instrumental praise.

I now consider those arguments a case of faulty reasoning and misapplied scripture. It is also my opinion that a staunch stand against instrumental praise is divisive to the body of Christ and detrimental to the salvation of the lost. The unsaved, the broken, those searching for meaning in their life are not concerned about whether a praise service is a cappella or instrumental; nor should we be. By the way, add Creekside Church of Christ to the list of C o C congregations integrating instrumental praise into their schedule of congregated praise. Creekside is a 400 to 500 member congregation in Midlothian, Texas. Creekside's Sunday evening praise is referred to as Turning Point. It is a contemporary instrumental praise service.

Sir, you might be surprised if you knew how many "closet instrumentalist" that exist in the Church of Christ. The congregation that I served had three elders. We all agreed with our preacher, that instrumental praise is just as pleasing to God as non-instrumental praise. It was not implemented at New Life Church of Christ because of fear of change. I suspect that there are other congregational leaders that are of the same opinion but are fearful of change.

Finally sir, if you are still reading and haven't already deleted my correspondence, let me inform you of Creekside's Sunday morning praise. Singing is a cappella and is conducted by a praise team that includes women. One of the ladies is an exceptional soloist. Someday I hope to walk into a Church of Christ praise and worship service and witness a talented woman leading instrumental praise and hear a thought provoking lesson brought by some spiritually inspired young lady.

My brother, though I'm sure that our interpretation of various scripture differ, I still respect your understanding of scripture and your sincerity. Please afford me and others the same courtesy. May the Lord bless your effort to bring the lost to Christ.

Addressed in Love,

-Randy Hightower


______________________________________________


[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dear Bro. Hightower:

Thank you for writing and sharing with me your new found faith and your hopes for the future of the Lord's church. That which you view as a new and wonderful transformation of your congregation, I view as a sad and shameful situation. It is sad because one of the Lord's congregations has departed from the narrow way that leads to life and shameful because her leaders should know better.[/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You say that is it your "opinion" and that of your fellow elders that instrumental music in worship is not sinful. It is impressive that you offer not a single scripture to justify your conclusion. I remind you that God's ways are not man's ways, nor his thoughts our thoughts (Is. 55:8-9). From Scripture we read that we are to sing an make melody with our hearts (Eph. 5:19). From Scripture we learn nothing about musical instruments in Christian worship. Historically we know that early Christians offered vocal praise without instrumental accompaniment. The use of instruments in Christian worship originated within the corrupt Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You say the lost are not concerned about the use of instruments in worship. The lost know little or nothing of the will of Christ for his church. But my brother have served as an elder, you above all, should know what the Lord's expressed will is and be strong in following it. It is your duty as the mature leader who should be holding to the faithful word (Tit. 1:9) to teach those who come to salvation the Savior's will in this and all other matters.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You confidently say that "Church of Christ is a denomination." I do not question that your Creekside Church is indeed a denomination. But the church of which I am a member is certainly not a denominational body. We are a band of baptized believers who worship and serve Christ the head of the church in spirit and in truth. We are an autonomous body under the exclusive authority of Christ and His Word. We have no part in any denominatonal governing body. WE have no creed or written standard of faith save our confession of Jesus as God's Son and his New Testament as our guiding and governing document. Individually, we identify ourselves as Christains (I Pet. 4:16). Since Christ purchased the church with his blood (Acts 20:28); founded the church (Matt. 16:18) and is head and savior of the church (Eph. 1:22; 5:23) we like Paul speak of our congregation as a church of Christ (Rom. 16:16).[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I find it remarkable that you have served as a deacon and elder of the Lord's church for more than ten years and yet you do not find it important to worship as He has directed. Only men who hold fast (to) the faithful word are qualified to fill the sacred office of elder (Tit. 1:9). You fail to recognize the sole authority of Christ to prescribe the faith, worship and practice of His church. That you wish to put women in the public leadership of the church is a clear example of your rejection of Christ's will that they not teach nor usurp authority over the men (I Tim. 2:11-12). Such rebellion against his authority God does not wink at. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (I Sam. 15:23).[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]If your heart craves to worship with instruments of music and with women leading the assembly, I recommend that you seek out the nearest Christian Church or Disciples of Christ church. There you will find people of like mind with you. Their fathers, a century ago traveled the same road you are pursuing today. You will be right at home with them.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is strange that you and others wish to change the faith and practice of our people, who for the last 200 years (here in American ) have followed the ancient faith and practice of the first Christians. But you charge us with causing division because we do not yield to your efforts to introduce changes based not on Scripture, but on your opinions. Can you not see that you are driving the wedge into our brotherhood?[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]In true worship, autonomous man gladly submits his will to that of Jesus (Heb. 5:9). In "will worship" (Col. 2:23), autonomous man does what he wants to do; what feels right and good to him, regardless of what the Scripture says. I neither cannot nor will not seek to force you to worship according to the revealed will of God. I do however plead with you to consider your ways (Hag. 1:7), to remember your first love (Rev. 2:4-5), to repent and return to the simple faith and worship you learned and practiced when first you tasted the good word of God and the glorious salvation of Christ (Heb. 6:4-5).[/color]

    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I write with prayer and hope that you will turn back to the old paths of God,

-John Waddey[/color]
Quote
Share

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 13th, 2009, 12:41 pm #2

The writer of the letter uses the expression "closet instrumentalist" to describe those in the Church of Christ who secretly desire IM in worship. Another "closet" expression that comes to mind is "closet gays," which describes people who secretly practice homosexuality but are afraid to "come out of the closet." So "closet instrumentalists" and "closet gays" both describe people who desire to engage covertly in two different practices, both of which are unscriptural.

It is also significant that the letter writer implies a large number of "closet instrumentalists" in the Church of Christ but makes no attempt to give any supporting statistics. Therefore, the letter writer is filled with nothing but wishful thinking.
Quote
Share

Ray
Ray

June 15th, 2009, 11:20 pm #3

A REVELATION OF THINGS TO COME
(Note: Below is a letter received from a brother who has fully embraced the change agenda. It is both informative and chilling. For those who have not yet encountered this movement, this will help you see just what we are up against. JHW)


Brother John, It is my opinion that instrumental praise is not sinful. I pray that more and more people of the Church of Christ will come to what has been an enlightened understanding for me. I was brought up in the Church of Christ denomination ( yes, TODAY the "Church of Christ" is a denomination), and I have served as a deacon (3 years) and an elder (9 years), so I know the scriptures that are used to support the position against the use of instrumental praise.

I now consider those arguments a case of faulty reasoning and misapplied scripture. It is also my opinion that a staunch stand against instrumental praise is divisive to the body of Christ and detrimental to the salvation of the lost. The unsaved, the broken, those searching for meaning in their life are not concerned about whether a praise service is a cappella or instrumental; nor should we be. By the way, add Creekside Church of Christ to the list of C o C congregations integrating instrumental praise into their schedule of congregated praise. Creekside is a 400 to 500 member congregation in Midlothian, Texas. Creekside's Sunday evening praise is referred to as Turning Point. It is a contemporary instrumental praise service.

Sir, you might be surprised if you knew how many "closet instrumentalist" that exist in the Church of Christ. The congregation that I served had three elders. We all agreed with our preacher, that instrumental praise is just as pleasing to God as non-instrumental praise. It was not implemented at New Life Church of Christ because of fear of change. I suspect that there are other congregational leaders that are of the same opinion but are fearful of change.

Finally sir, if you are still reading and haven't already deleted my correspondence, let me inform you of Creekside's Sunday morning praise. Singing is a cappella and is conducted by a praise team that includes women. One of the ladies is an exceptional soloist. Someday I hope to walk into a Church of Christ praise and worship service and witness a talented woman leading instrumental praise and hear a thought provoking lesson brought by some spiritually inspired young lady.

My brother, though I'm sure that our interpretation of various scripture differ, I still respect your understanding of scripture and your sincerity. Please afford me and others the same courtesy. May the Lord bless your effort to bring the lost to Christ.

Addressed in Love,

-Randy Hightower


______________________________________________


[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dear Bro. Hightower:

Thank you for writing and sharing with me your new found faith and your hopes for the future of the Lord's church. That which you view as a new and wonderful transformation of your congregation, I view as a sad and shameful situation. It is sad because one of the Lord's congregations has departed from the narrow way that leads to life and shameful because her leaders should know better.[/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You say that is it your "opinion" and that of your fellow elders that instrumental music in worship is not sinful. It is impressive that you offer not a single scripture to justify your conclusion. I remind you that God's ways are not man's ways, nor his thoughts our thoughts (Is. 55:8-9). From Scripture we read that we are to sing an make melody with our hearts (Eph. 5:19). From Scripture we learn nothing about musical instruments in Christian worship. Historically we know that early Christians offered vocal praise without instrumental accompaniment. The use of instruments in Christian worship originated within the corrupt Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You say the lost are not concerned about the use of instruments in worship. The lost know little or nothing of the will of Christ for his church. But my brother have served as an elder, you above all, should know what the Lord's expressed will is and be strong in following it. It is your duty as the mature leader who should be holding to the faithful word (Tit. 1:9) to teach those who come to salvation the Savior's will in this and all other matters.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You confidently say that "Church of Christ is a denomination." I do not question that your Creekside Church is indeed a denomination. But the church of which I am a member is certainly not a denominational body. We are a band of baptized believers who worship and serve Christ the head of the church in spirit and in truth. We are an autonomous body under the exclusive authority of Christ and His Word. We have no part in any denominatonal governing body. WE have no creed or written standard of faith save our confession of Jesus as God's Son and his New Testament as our guiding and governing document. Individually, we identify ourselves as Christains (I Pet. 4:16). Since Christ purchased the church with his blood (Acts 20:28); founded the church (Matt. 16:18) and is head and savior of the church (Eph. 1:22; 5:23) we like Paul speak of our congregation as a church of Christ (Rom. 16:16).[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I find it remarkable that you have served as a deacon and elder of the Lord's church for more than ten years and yet you do not find it important to worship as He has directed. Only men who hold fast (to) the faithful word are qualified to fill the sacred office of elder (Tit. 1:9). You fail to recognize the sole authority of Christ to prescribe the faith, worship and practice of His church. That you wish to put women in the public leadership of the church is a clear example of your rejection of Christ's will that they not teach nor usurp authority over the men (I Tim. 2:11-12). Such rebellion against his authority God does not wink at. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (I Sam. 15:23).[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]If your heart craves to worship with instruments of music and with women leading the assembly, I recommend that you seek out the nearest Christian Church or Disciples of Christ church. There you will find people of like mind with you. Their fathers, a century ago traveled the same road you are pursuing today. You will be right at home with them.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is strange that you and others wish to change the faith and practice of our people, who for the last 200 years (here in American ) have followed the ancient faith and practice of the first Christians. But you charge us with causing division because we do not yield to your efforts to introduce changes based not on Scripture, but on your opinions. Can you not see that you are driving the wedge into our brotherhood?[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]In true worship, autonomous man gladly submits his will to that of Jesus (Heb. 5:9). In "will worship" (Col. 2:23), autonomous man does what he wants to do; what feels right and good to him, regardless of what the Scripture says. I neither cannot nor will not seek to force you to worship according to the revealed will of God. I do however plead with you to consider your ways (Hag. 1:7), to remember your first love (Rev. 2:4-5), to repent and return to the simple faith and worship you learned and practiced when first you tasted the good word of God and the glorious salvation of Christ (Heb. 6:4-5).[/color]

    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I write with prayer and hope that you will turn back to the old paths of God,

-John Waddey[/color]
John's opinions are "God's ways" and any opinion that Joh disagrees with are "man's ways".

Sinced neither John nor the original author are here to defend themselves, why is this even posted? Gossip? Waddey Worship?
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 18th, 2009, 6:38 pm #4

Ray,

It's true that neither John nor the original author is here to defend, but this is posted as a lesson for learning or discussion.

Which of John's opinions, you think, do not conform to Scripture or do you find erroneous that we need to discuss?
Quote
Like
Share

Ray
Ray

June 19th, 2009, 3:37 pm #5

Waddey's entire post is his opinion only and only his interpretation of scriptures. The fact that he elevates his interpretations to equal with God's word is arrogance, and proof of Jesus' warning against blind guides. For that is what Waddey and his followers are - blind to their own arrogance. John is a slanderer and speaks neither for the Churches of Christ, nor for God.
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 19th, 2009, 5:32 pm #6

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

I wonder of which church of Christ member you are.

The entire post is dealing with the use of musical devices in the assembly. 99.88888% of the congregations of the church of Christ does not indulge in such type of musical idolatry. And the very few congregations that use IM have either affiliated with the Christian Church or are now members of the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches.

So, John Waddey still speaks for the churches of Christ and along with the great men of the Restoration Movement -- if you even know its history.

Your task now to prove that Waddey's entire post is "opinion" is to present your own argument(s) against Waddey and according to Scripture.

And let the reader decide as to who is credible.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Ray
Ray

June 21st, 2009, 11:08 pm #7

Point by point as requested by John's disciple:

1. John offers not a single scripture to justify his conclusion. His thoughts posted are only his thoughts and not God's. He quotes acripturtes, but even Satan knows to do that. They key to speaking God's Word is to do so within context and without interpretation. John does neither. His entire argument is based solely on his interpretaiton and on uninspired non-Biblical writings. I am quite familiar with Church history. It is not inspired. God's Word alone is.

2. God's Word teaches us explicity how to be hold to God's faithful word and how to teach those who come to salvation the Savior's will. John, however, has chosen to speak where the Scriptures are silent. In doing so he elevates his opinion above God's Holy Word and presumes to speak and judge where the Scriptures are silent and do not judge.


3. The "Church of Christ" is a denomination whether John says so or not. To deny it is to be blind. Does the fact that the Church of Christ is a denomination negate the fact that is is part of the Lord's Church? NO!!!

4. John may claim he does not have a written creed (except for his own blog and his own writings, and all those non-inspired writings he also follows), but he does have a creed. He follows traditions that are not found in the scriptures but are in his and other human interpretations of the scriptures. Many who he has publically denounced and judged are, like him, baptized believers who worship and serve Christ the head of the church in spirit and in truth. They, like him, are an autonomous body under the exclusive authority of Christ and His Word. John has set himself up as a denominatonal governing body as have all who decide what congregations are "sound" and what congregations are not. They have elevated themselves to such a gioverning body for they judge not based on the plain and simple Word of God but based on their interpretartions and traditions. ALL who he passes judgement on identify themselves as Christians (I Pet. 4:16). Since Christ purchased ALL of the called out with his blood (Acts 20:28) and is head and savior of ALL of the called out (Eph. 1:22; 5:23). And by the way, Paul never called any one congregation a "church of Christ" but spoke only in the plural (Rom. 16:16).


5. I find it remarkable that a man ... would behave so much like the unforgiving servant in the Gospel of Matthew (18). ALL who John denounces and passes judgement on recognize the sole authority of Christ to prescribe the faith, worship and practice of His church. When John deenounces and passes judgement on faithful members of the Lord's Church and on the saved that are accepted by God, he is rebelling against God, God's authority, and what God has accepted. "Such rebellion against his authority God does not wink at. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (I Sam. 15:23)."


6. John seeks to drive out faithful members of the Lord's Church and create division against those whom God has accepted.

7. If John or you knew one iota of our history over the past 200 years, he would know that our practices have been constantly changing, but the faith never has. Only someone copmpletely ignorant of our history in Amerixa could make the claims John makes. But instead, John charges those with whom he disagrees with causing division because they will not yield to his opinions and efforts to force opinions not explicitily stated in Scripture on others. He and his disciples are blind to the imposition of the wedge they are driving into our brotherhood.


8. I do plead with John and his disciples to consider their ways (Hag. 1:7), to remember their first love (Rev. 2:4-5), to turn from following their own interpretations and traditions, and return to the simple faith and worship they learned and practiced when first they tasted the good word of God and the glorious salvation of Christ (Heb. 6:4-5).

I find it incredulous that anyone who supports the division and grumbling promoted by this website and by John is a true member of the Lord's Church. I do not doubt your claim that you are, but it is incredulous that members of Christ's body would behave like those who promote this website and the divisions promoted by John.
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on June 23rd, 2009, 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Share

Tom
Tom

June 22nd, 2009, 10:37 pm #8

Ray, you mentioned John leaving Tenn. Was this over a marriage issue? I had read something about this a couple of years ago and am curious. You can respond to me privately if you would like to respond at all. Thanks.
Quote
Share

Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

June 24th, 2009, 8:46 pm #9

Point by point as requested by John's disciple:

1. John offers not a single scripture to justify his conclusion. His thoughts posted are only his thoughts and not God's. He quotes acripturtes, but even Satan knows to do that. They key to speaking God's Word is to do so within context and without interpretation. John does neither. His entire argument is based solely on his interpretaiton and on uninspired non-Biblical writings. I am quite familiar with Church history. It is not inspired. God's Word alone is.

2. God's Word teaches us explicity how to be hold to God's faithful word and how to teach those who come to salvation the Savior's will. John, however, has chosen to speak where the Scriptures are silent. In doing so he elevates his opinion above God's Holy Word and presumes to speak and judge where the Scriptures are silent and do not judge.


3. The "Church of Christ" is a denomination whether John says so or not. To deny it is to be blind. Does the fact that the Church of Christ is a denomination negate the fact that is is part of the Lord's Church? NO!!!

4. John may claim he does not have a written creed (except for his own blog and his own writings, and all those non-inspired writings he also follows), but he does have a creed. He follows traditions that are not found in the scriptures but are in his and other human interpretations of the scriptures. Many who he has publically denounced and judged are, like him, baptized believers who worship and serve Christ the head of the church in spirit and in truth. They, like him, are an autonomous body under the exclusive authority of Christ and His Word. John has set himself up as a denominatonal governing body as have all who decide what congregations are "sound" and what congregations are not. They have elevated themselves to such a gioverning body for they judge not based on the plain and simple Word of God but based on their interpretartions and traditions. ALL who he passes judgement on identify themselves as Christians (I Pet. 4:16). Since Christ purchased ALL of the called out with his blood (Acts 20:28) and is head and savior of ALL of the called out (Eph. 1:22; 5:23). And by the way, Paul never called any one congregation a "church of Christ" but spoke only in the plural (Rom. 16:16).


5. I find it remarkable that a man ... would behave so much like the unforgiving servant in the Gospel of Matthew (18). ALL who John denounces and passes judgement on recognize the sole authority of Christ to prescribe the faith, worship and practice of His church. When John deenounces and passes judgement on faithful members of the Lord's Church and on the saved that are accepted by God, he is rebelling against God, God's authority, and what God has accepted. "Such rebellion against his authority God does not wink at. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (I Sam. 15:23)."


6. John seeks to drive out faithful members of the Lord's Church and create division against those whom God has accepted.

7. If John or you knew one iota of our history over the past 200 years, he would know that our practices have been constantly changing, but the faith never has. Only someone copmpletely ignorant of our history in Amerixa could make the claims John makes. But instead, John charges those with whom he disagrees with causing division because they will not yield to his opinions and efforts to force opinions not explicitily stated in Scripture on others. He and his disciples are blind to the imposition of the wedge they are driving into our brotherhood.


8. I do plead with John and his disciples to consider their ways (Hag. 1:7), to remember their first love (Rev. 2:4-5), to turn from following their own interpretations and traditions, and return to the simple faith and worship they learned and practiced when first they tasted the good word of God and the glorious salvation of Christ (Heb. 6:4-5).

I find it incredulous that anyone who supports the division and grumbling promoted by this website and by John is a true member of the Lord's Church. I do not doubt your claim that you are, but it is incredulous that members of Christ's body would behave like those who promote this website and the divisions promoted by John.
Title: Johins entire message is opinion and not the Words of God

Title: [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: Ray's arguments are for the most part unrelated to the subject of instrumental music in the assembly -- a question originally raised by an elder of a local congregation that is being led/misled by those with going-along-with-the-winds-of-change-at-any-cost tendencies. As one can tell, Ray's point-by-point list is no more than the intent to make personal attacks against John Waddey and to deliberately pervert or rewrite the history of the Restoration Movement just like his mentors -- the change agents operating in the brotherhood. [/color]

Point by point as requested by John's disciple:

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: Point by point attacks by a fearful Ray [last name: unknown], a follower of the Change Agents (Max Lucado, Rick Atchley, et al), the Community Church/Change Movement (Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, et al):[/color]

1. John offers not a single scripture to justify his conclusion. His thoughts posted are only his thoughts and not God's. He quotes acripturtes, but even Satan knows to do that. They key to speaking God's Word is to do so within context and without interpretation. John does neither. His entire argument is based solely on his interpretaiton and on uninspired non-Biblical writings. I am quite familiar with Church history. It is not inspired. God's Word alone is.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: John's message concerning instrumental music [the topic of the discussion, Ray] is scripture-based and is the same message throughout generations of the Restoration Movement and is the same message derived from the New Testament and early church history as it pertains to the use of musical devices in the assembly. The early Christians did no such musical idolatry, and it was not until the Roman Catholic Church began the use of instrumental music centuries later. No, Ray, from all indications present, you are very unfamiliar with church history. That God's Word alone is inspired is a no-brainer.[/color]

2. God's Word teaches us explicity how to be hold to God's faithful word and how to teach those who come to salvation the Savior's will. John, however, has chosen to speak where the Scriptures are silent. In doing so he elevates his opinion above God's Holy Word and presumes to speak and judge where the Scriptures are silent and do not judge.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: I agree with your original premise pertaining to holding to God's faithful word. The ones guilty of not being faithful to God's word are the change agents operating in the brotherhood whose main goal is to disrupt the peace in the churches of Christ, to create conflict, to restructure the church and to change God's directives for the church. Their followers, including Ray, are just as guilty of adding to God's truth or changing His teachings to accommodate culture and society. [/color]

3. The "Church of Christ" is a denomination whether John says so or not. To deny it is to be blind. Does the fact that the Church of Christ is a denomination negate the fact that is is part of the Lord's Church? NO!!!

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: Ray, you sound like you came from a background that believed that "the church of Christ is His body and is not a denomination." That you were also taught the scriptural reasons why. As to why you changed directions is simply a problem of yours -- not John Waddey's. The Lord's body is not and has never been a denomination -- it is NOT comprised of all the hundreds and hundreds of religious bodies or "Christian" denominations" as YOU think. If there was an attempt to transform the church that belongs to Christ into a denomination, it would clearly be the intent of the change agents -- not by John Waddey nor by the great men of the Restoration Movement. [/color]

4. John may claim he does not have a written creed (except for his own blog and his own writings, and all those non-inspired writings he also follows), but he does have a creed. He follows traditions that are not found in the scriptures but are in his and other human interpretations of the scriptures. Many who he has publically denounced and judged are, like him, baptized believers who worship and serve Christ the head of the church in spirit and in truth. They, like him, are an autonomous body under the exclusive authority of Christ and His Word. John has set himself up as a denominatonal governing body as have all who decide what congregations are "sound" and what congregations are not. They have elevated themselves to such a gioverning body for they judge not based on the plain and simple Word of God but based on their interpretartions and traditions. ALL who he passes judgement on identify themselves as Christians (I Pet. 4:16). Since Christ purchased ALL of the called out with his blood (Acts 20:28) and is head and savior of ALL of the called out (Eph. 1:22; 5:23). And by the way, Paul never called any one congregation a "church of Christ" but spoke only in the plural (Rom. 16:16).

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: All your accusations are false. You made them up. All of a sudden, the doctrine, teachings and practices of the church by past generations are now labeled as "traditions" by the change agents and their disciples, including Ray. That means that the observance of the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross is now a "tradition," according to Ray and the change agents. The change agents and Ray are confused about the differences between: (1) man-made traditions and (2) the teachings of Christ and His apostles. John is not opposed to the truth or against the principles of the Restoration Movement. On the contrary, the change agents compromise God's truth in order to get along with their denominational neighbors. Ray is misunderstanding the fact and truth the church is the body of Christ and is comprised of individuals who have been baptized in order to become Christians -- not the church is comprised of a conglomerate of "denominations" or religious organizations. Organizations or groups do not make up the body of Christ; but INDIVIDUAL Christians do. [/color]

5. I find it remarkable that a man [. . .] would behave so much like the unforgiving servant in the Gospel of Matthew (18). ALL who John denounces and passes judgement on recognize the sole authority of Christ to prescribe the faith, worship and practice of His church. When John deenounces and passes judgement on faithful members of the Lord's Church and on the saved that are accepted by God, he is rebelling against God, God's authority, and what God has accepted. "Such rebellion against his authority God does not wink at. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (I Sam. 15:23)."

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: John denounces the disruptions caused by change agents in the church. John is not changing God's directives for the church. The change agents are doing that. [/color]

6. John seeks to drive out faithful members of the Lord's Church and create division against those whom God has accepted.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: That's a lie. It's just the opposite. The Change Movement is creating division in the church by introducing and implementing unnecessary and controversial changes that faithful members detest. [/color]

7. If John or you knew one iota of our history over the past 200 years, he would know that our practices have been constantly changing, but the faith never has. Only someone copmpletely ignorant of our history in Amerixa could make the claims John makes. But instead, John charges those with whom he disagrees with causing division because they will not yield to his opinions and efforts to force opinions not explicitily stated in Scripture on others. He and his disciples are blind to the imposition of the wedge they are driving into our brotherhood.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: Ray, you have the exact image of the change agents who want to RESTRUCTURE the church and REWRITE the history of the Restoration Movement. John knows the history of the church over the past 200 years. The change agents want to distort and rewrite the history.[/color]

8. I do plead with John and his disciples to consider their ways (Hag. 1:7), to remember their first love (Rev. 2:4-5), to turn from following their own interpretations and traditions, and return to the simple faith and worship they learned and practiced when first they tasted the good word of God and the glorious salvation of Christ (Heb. 6:4-5).

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: The advice you're giving to John is exactly what you and the change agents need -- a return to "the old paths." Jeremiah is speaking to you: "[6:16] <i>Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
</i>[/color]

I find it incredulous that anyone who supports the division and grumbling promoted by this website and by John is a true member of the Lord's Church. I do not doubt your claim that you are, but it is incredulous that members of Christ's body would behave like those who promote this website and the divisions promoted by John.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: The plea of this website is to return to "the old paths." Reject the deceptions and perversions and disruptions of the change agents who are determined to compromise God's truth to satisfy culture and society. Ray, you align: (a) either with God's truth and the church that Christ established, (b) or with the Change Movement of Rick Warren and his disciples, the change agents in the church and their disciples. In reality, the question needs not be asked. We already know which side you're on. [/color]
Quote
Share

Ray
Ray

June 25th, 2009, 12:27 pm #10

Donnie,

I was expecting response from a follower of Christ, but instead got a response from a follower of someone else. We could have had a discusssion of God's Word and where it opposes John's Word. Instead we got your defense of John's word, a covering up of the truth, and unChristian attacks about that which you know nothing about.

You do nothing but quote from those who attack the Lord's Church, and then you have the audacity to claim that the ones you attack follow humans that they have never quoted? You edit out [. . .]. Why do you fear the truth?

Proof once again that your apostle John does not teach from the Bible but only from his interpretation of the Bible. And you and he both pass judgement not from the scriptures but from your interpretations of the scriptures.

Produce the quotation from God's Holy Word that specifically and explicitly says that instruments are 1) Sinful, or 2) Displeasing to God, or 3) Will put you in danger of Hellfire, or 4) where Jesus said anything against using them, or 5) any apostle in the NT saying anything against using them.

No interpretations, no ommission of the context, just a simple specific and explicit quotation from God's Holy Wod.

Anything less or more is simply your opinion. And we all have seen what that is worth.
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on June 25th, 2009, 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Share