A Revelation of Things to Come: Embracing the Change Agenda

Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

June 25th, 2009, 9:05 pm #11

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

I was expecting you to discuss specifically the subject of instrumental music in the assembly -- that an elder of a local congregation was asking John Waddey about. Instead, you made a list of accusations and attacked him personally while you're not brave enough to identify yourself except as one of the Rays. What are you afraid of, Ray ____________?

The provision for you to be able to post here is a privilege; the right to edit out personal attacks and accusations totally unrelated to the discussion of subject matters is an OBLIGATION. Remember that this a moderated forum, even though your constant negative and critical comments and misjudgments of this site have been allowed to be posted.

Now, the truth of the matter regarding the Restoration Movement -- and you must stop distorting its history -- is that John Waddey is closer to God's truth, to the principles of the restoration process, to the great men and leaders of the era THAN you and the change agents.

Another truth of the matter -- and stop ignoring this fact -- is that only around 20 of the thousands of congregations of the church of Christ worldwide use those inanimate, lifeless musical devices in their assemblies, either part of the time or all of the time. Go figure. The majority, 99.99888% of the churches, does not induldge in such type of musical idolatry. In reality, it's virtually all faithful congregations do not use IM. And how is that? It's because those very few congregations that do have either aligned themselves with the Christian Church denomination or have affiliated themselves with the WCACC (Willow Creek Association of Community Churches).

So, now, just who is attacking the Lord's church? John Waddey? Or, you and the change agents and their disciples like you? Did the early or first century New Testament church use mechanical musical objects in their assemblies? NO!!! Did Christians in the early centuries use IM? NO!!! Not until the Roman Catholic Church initiated the idolatry. Were the great men of the Restoration Movement in opposition to the use of musical objects? Of course, yes!!!

So, Ray, you are the one distorting the history of the church. You're behaving just like the change agents who desire so much to restructure the church that Christ established and so much to modify God's directives for His church. Why don't the change agents and you start your own church? From scratch? Instead of disturbing peaceful congregations?

The burden is more on you providing us with scriptures or passages that direct the New Testament church of our Lord to use musical idols in the assembly than on us providing a "thou shalt not" command. You and the change agents misuse and abuse the "law of silence" by making this ludicrous claim your guide: "Where the Bible does not say 'NOT TO,' God approves or authorizes."

That guide amounts to: "Where the Bible does not say, 'Thou shalt not worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God,' God approves or authorizes."

With regard to the directive from God for Christians assembling together to teach and admonish one another in "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs," you already know but still reject the truth in Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16. Those passages are explicit enough for me and many other Christians. And speaking of "in context" or "out of context," where are you going to hide now that or since you want to add or include musical devices in the text? Let's see. Which of the following specific instruments would you like to add to the text? The timbrel and dance, pipes, organs, stringed instruments, trumpets, psalteries, cymbals, cornets, tabrets and all of King David's other instruments?[/color]
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Ray
Ray

June 26th, 2009, 11:14 am #12

Donnie,

You have failed to produce one quotation from God's Holy Word that specifically and explicitly says that instruments are 1) Sinful, or 2) Displeasing to God, or 3) Will put you in danger of Hellfire, or 4) where Jesus said anything against using them, or 5) any apostle in the NT saying anything against using them.

You have proven in your own answer that your are speaking here the sciptures are silent, you are passing judgement where God has not, and you are building a doctrine on your own interpretation.

John's personal attack on the elder in the church of Christ was also based on his own opinion and not on the specific and explicit word of God. His personal attacks on the many independent and autonomous congregations of the Lord's Church are based not on the specific and explicit word of God but only on his own opinion. It was John, and not I, who told an elder of a church of Christ to leave the church of Christ if that elder did not agree with John's opinion.

I believe his history is relevant because he does not show the grace shown to him.

You claim I am attacking the Lord's Church? Prove it from God's word, not from your opinion.

You claim I am ignorant of and changing Restortation Movement history? Prove it from actual facts and not your's or John's distorted and self-serving generalizations.

And finally, produce one quotation from God's Holy Word that specifically and explicitly says that you are authorized to condemn where God has not condemned, where you are authorized to speak where God is silent, where you are authorized to pass judgement where God has not, where you are authorized to call something a sin that God has not called a sin.

Let it be known to all that this website speaks opinions only and not the pure specific and explicit Word of God.
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Ray
Ray

June 26th, 2009, 2:36 pm #13

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

I was expecting you to discuss specifically the subject of instrumental music in the assembly -- that an elder of a local congregation was asking John Waddey about. Instead, you made a list of accusations and attacked him personally while you're not brave enough to identify yourself except as one of the Rays. What are you afraid of, Ray ____________?

The provision for you to be able to post here is a privilege; the right to edit out personal attacks and accusations totally unrelated to the discussion of subject matters is an OBLIGATION. Remember that this a moderated forum, even though your constant negative and critical comments and misjudgments of this site have been allowed to be posted.

Now, the truth of the matter regarding the Restoration Movement -- and you must stop distorting its history -- is that John Waddey is closer to God's truth, to the principles of the restoration process, to the great men and leaders of the era THAN you and the change agents.

Another truth of the matter -- and stop ignoring this fact -- is that only around 20 of the thousands of congregations of the church of Christ worldwide use those inanimate, lifeless musical devices in their assemblies, either part of the time or all of the time. Go figure. The majority, 99.99888% of the churches, does not induldge in such type of musical idolatry. In reality, it's virtually all faithful congregations do not use IM. And how is that? It's because those very few congregations that do have either aligned themselves with the Christian Church denomination or have affiliated themselves with the WCACC (Willow Creek Association of Community Churches).

So, now, just who is attacking the Lord's church? John Waddey? Or, you and the change agents and their disciples like you? Did the early or first century New Testament church use mechanical musical objects in their assemblies? NO!!! Did Christians in the early centuries use IM? NO!!! Not until the Roman Catholic Church initiated the idolatry. Were the great men of the Restoration Movement in opposition to the use of musical objects? Of course, yes!!!

So, Ray, you are the one distorting the history of the church. You're behaving just like the change agents who desire so much to restructure the church that Christ established and so much to modify God's directives for His church. Why don't the change agents and you start your own church? From scratch? Instead of disturbing peaceful congregations?

The burden is more on you providing us with scriptures or passages that direct the New Testament church of our Lord to use musical idols in the assembly than on us providing a "thou shalt not" command. You and the change agents misuse and abuse the "law of silence" by making this ludicrous claim your guide: "Where the Bible does not say 'NOT TO,' God approves or authorizes."

That guide amounts to: "Where the Bible does not say, 'Thou shalt not worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God,' God approves or authorizes."

With regard to the directive from God for Christians assembling together to teach and admonish one another in "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs," you already know but still reject the truth in Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16. Those passages are explicit enough for me and many other Christians. And speaking of "in context" or "out of context," where are you going to hide now that or since you want to add or include musical devices in the text? Let's see. Which of the following specific instruments would you like to add to the text? The timbrel and dance, pipes, organs, stringed instruments, trumpets, psalteries, cymbals, cornets, tabrets and all of King David's other instruments?[/color]
Donnie mentions the purpose of this website. The real purpose of this website is clearly obvious and is referred to in the scriptures often, always in the negative:

"Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved...Do not grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall." (1 Corinthian 10:6, 10-12, NASB)

"for the LORD hears your grumblings which you grumble against Him. And what are we? Your grumblings are not against us but against the LORD." (Exodus 16:8, NASB)

"How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who are grumbling against Me? I have heard the complaints of the sons of Israel, which they are making against Me. Say to them, 'As I live,' says the LORD, 'just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will surely do to you; your corpses will fall in this wilderness, even all your numbered men, according to your complete number from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against Me." (Numbers 14:27-30, NASB)

"Do all things without grumbling or disputing; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain." (Philippians 2:14-16, NASB)

"Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door." (James 5:9, NASB)

"It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage. But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts." These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit." (Jude 1:14-19, NASB)

It is the grumblers that sin and cause division, not the ones who are grumbled against.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

June 27th, 2009, 3:23 am #14

A REVELATION OF THINGS TO COME
(Note: Below is a letter received from a brother who has fully embraced the change agenda. It is both informative and chilling. For those who have not yet encountered this movement, this will help you see just what we are up against. JHW)


Brother John, It is my opinion that instrumental praise is not sinful. I pray that more and more people of the Church of Christ will come to what has been an enlightened understanding for me. I was brought up in the Church of Christ denomination ( yes, TODAY the "Church of Christ" is a denomination), and I have served as a deacon (3 years) and an elder (9 years), so I know the scriptures that are used to support the position against the use of instrumental praise.

I now consider those arguments a case of faulty reasoning and misapplied scripture. It is also my opinion that a staunch stand against instrumental praise is divisive to the body of Christ and detrimental to the salvation of the lost. The unsaved, the broken, those searching for meaning in their life are not concerned about whether a praise service is a cappella or instrumental; nor should we be. By the way, add Creekside Church of Christ to the list of C o C congregations integrating instrumental praise into their schedule of congregated praise. Creekside is a 400 to 500 member congregation in Midlothian, Texas. Creekside's Sunday evening praise is referred to as Turning Point. It is a contemporary instrumental praise service.

Sir, you might be surprised if you knew how many "closet instrumentalist" that exist in the Church of Christ. The congregation that I served had three elders. We all agreed with our preacher, that instrumental praise is just as pleasing to God as non-instrumental praise. It was not implemented at New Life Church of Christ because of fear of change. I suspect that there are other congregational leaders that are of the same opinion but are fearful of change.

Finally sir, if you are still reading and haven't already deleted my correspondence, let me inform you of Creekside's Sunday morning praise. Singing is a cappella and is conducted by a praise team that includes women. One of the ladies is an exceptional soloist. Someday I hope to walk into a Church of Christ praise and worship service and witness a talented woman leading instrumental praise and hear a thought provoking lesson brought by some spiritually inspired young lady.

My brother, though I'm sure that our interpretation of various scripture differ, I still respect your understanding of scripture and your sincerity. Please afford me and others the same courtesy. May the Lord bless your effort to bring the lost to Christ.

Addressed in Love,

-Randy Hightower


______________________________________________


[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dear Bro. Hightower:

Thank you for writing and sharing with me your new found faith and your hopes for the future of the Lord's church. That which you view as a new and wonderful transformation of your congregation, I view as a sad and shameful situation. It is sad because one of the Lord's congregations has departed from the narrow way that leads to life and shameful because her leaders should know better.[/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You say that is it your "opinion" and that of your fellow elders that instrumental music in worship is not sinful. It is impressive that you offer not a single scripture to justify your conclusion. I remind you that God's ways are not man's ways, nor his thoughts our thoughts (Is. 55:8-9). From Scripture we read that we are to sing an make melody with our hearts (Eph. 5:19). From Scripture we learn nothing about musical instruments in Christian worship. Historically we know that early Christians offered vocal praise without instrumental accompaniment. The use of instruments in Christian worship originated within the corrupt Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You say the lost are not concerned about the use of instruments in worship. The lost know little or nothing of the will of Christ for his church. But my brother have served as an elder, you above all, should know what the Lord's expressed will is and be strong in following it. It is your duty as the mature leader who should be holding to the faithful word (Tit. 1:9) to teach those who come to salvation the Savior's will in this and all other matters.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You confidently say that "Church of Christ is a denomination." I do not question that your Creekside Church is indeed a denomination. But the church of which I am a member is certainly not a denominational body. We are a band of baptized believers who worship and serve Christ the head of the church in spirit and in truth. We are an autonomous body under the exclusive authority of Christ and His Word. We have no part in any denominatonal governing body. WE have no creed or written standard of faith save our confession of Jesus as God's Son and his New Testament as our guiding and governing document. Individually, we identify ourselves as Christains (I Pet. 4:16). Since Christ purchased the church with his blood (Acts 20:28); founded the church (Matt. 16:18) and is head and savior of the church (Eph. 1:22; 5:23) we like Paul speak of our congregation as a church of Christ (Rom. 16:16).[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I find it remarkable that you have served as a deacon and elder of the Lord's church for more than ten years and yet you do not find it important to worship as He has directed. Only men who hold fast (to) the faithful word are qualified to fill the sacred office of elder (Tit. 1:9). You fail to recognize the sole authority of Christ to prescribe the faith, worship and practice of His church. That you wish to put women in the public leadership of the church is a clear example of your rejection of Christ's will that they not teach nor usurp authority over the men (I Tim. 2:11-12). Such rebellion against his authority God does not wink at. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (I Sam. 15:23).[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]If your heart craves to worship with instruments of music and with women leading the assembly, I recommend that you seek out the nearest Christian Church or Disciples of Christ church. There you will find people of like mind with you. Their fathers, a century ago traveled the same road you are pursuing today. You will be right at home with them.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is strange that you and others wish to change the faith and practice of our people, who for the last 200 years (here in American ) have followed the ancient faith and practice of the first Christians. But you charge us with causing division because we do not yield to your efforts to introduce changes based not on Scripture, but on your opinions. Can you not see that you are driving the wedge into our brotherhood?[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]In true worship, autonomous man gladly submits his will to that of Jesus (Heb. 5:9). In "will worship" (Col. 2:23), autonomous man does what he wants to do; what feels right and good to him, regardless of what the Scripture says. I neither cannot nor will not seek to force you to worship according to the revealed will of God. I do however plead with you to consider your ways (Hag. 1:7), to remember your first love (Rev. 2:4-5), to repent and return to the simple faith and worship you learned and practiced when first you tasted the good word of God and the glorious salvation of Christ (Heb. 6:4-5).[/color]

    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I write with prayer and hope that you will turn back to the old paths of God,

-John Waddey[/color]
"Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved...Do not grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall." (1 Corinthian 10:6, 10-12, NASB)

In 1 Corinthians 10 and Romans 10 Paul spoke of the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai: because of this transgression God turned them over to worship the starry host." He also sentenced them to return to Babylon for captivity and death.

Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 1 Cor. 10:7

"The triumphal hymn of Moses had unquestionably a religious character about it; but the employment of music in religious services, though idolatrous, is more distinctly marked in the festivities which attended the erection of the golden calf." (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 589).

"We know that all of the Israelites brought Egyptian gods and practices with them and it is not far-fetched to think that Miriam, who had not yet been exposed to the Covenant, was part of the consciousness-altering rhythms and which was part of a priestly myth-play brought to destructive consummation at Mount Sinai as the golden calf was called back into action.

This "rising up to play" involved eating, drinking, nakedness and musical worship. The goddess, Hathor, is the best candidate for the Mother Goddess of the Mount Sinai idolatry. Here priestessess or prophetesses were highly trained with musical instruments, cultic songs and be able to join in the religious dance.

"Music and drugs were co-consiprators in religious ecstasy. They may have used some product of the sycamore fig which both intoxicated and induced an altered state of consciousness. The ergo of barley was well known. Anton Marks


"Rising up to Play" was playing instruments in a ritual drama and was mocking Jehovah God as they rejected Him and worshiped Apis. Elsewhere we see that this was seduction, the theme of all ancient worship with music:

"They sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. They practiced rites in which they made themselves naked, perhaps similar to those which were carried out by naked Babylonian priests." (Woodrow, p. 158)

"In the New Testament there is nowhere any emphasis laid on the musical form of the hymns; and in particular none on instrumental accompaniment whereas this is significantly paganism." (Delling, Gerhard, Worship in the New Testament, trans. Percy Scott Phil. Westminster press, 1962, p. 86).


THE EXODUS FALL FROM GRACE BY PROFANING THE SABBATH WHICH MEANS TO "MAKE MUSIC".

Exod 32:5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the Lord.

Exod 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to PLAY.


The Egyptian Opis (Apis) and others which Israel worshipped at Mount Sinal were worshipped throughout the area. "In preference to all other hymns these choirs generally sang the so-called epiphany hymns,which were intended to invite the gods to appear. Plutarch wrote:

......Why do the women of Elis call upon God in song to approach them with the bull's foot? Their song is the following:

...........Come, Dionysus, Hero,
...........into the holy temple of Elis,
........... together with the Graces
...........come violently into the temple with the bull's foot!

...........Then they sang twice at the end: "Sacred Bull!" (Johannes Quasten, Music & Worship in Pagan and Christian Antiquity, p. 76)

"For nonliterate peoples, music often serves purposes other than entertainment or aesthetic enjoyment. Certain wind instrumentare closely associated with the supernatural, and their sounds connote powerful magic. Australian Aborigines, for instance, identify the sound of a bull-roarer with thevoices of supernatural beings; for the Plains Indians, the same sound signifies an awesome natural phenomenon, such as thunder. Wind instruments are often among a group's most important ritual objects, and in some cultures they are specially venerated. The Kamairua Indians of the Amazon rain forest keep their giant flutes (three to four feet long), wherein spirits are believed to dwell, in a special shrine where they are worshiped. The flutes and drums of New Guinea are similarly housed and worshiped.

"Wind instruments in primitive cultures also serve nonreligious functions. In New Guinea, bamboo trumpets were once played

......to frighten an enemyduring battle and
...... to alert a village that the victorious warriors were coming home with the corpses of the foes.

"Conch-shell trumpets are used for signaling in the Pacific coastal regions of Columbia and in the Ecuadoran highlands.

......Trumpets also may be associated with the office of king or chief, as in West Africa,
...... where their use is strictly controlled by tribal law. "wind instrument" Encyclopædia Britannica Online.


Latin PLAY

Ludo
A.To sport, play with any thing, to practise as a pastime, amuse one's self with any thing:
......Especially, to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song:

B.To sport, dally, wanton (cf. "amorous play,

Exod 32:7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

Pecco B. In partic., of sexual sin: quid inter-Est in matron


"Sex in Civilization" (Garden City Publishing Co.).

"The elaborate mystic theology of Egypt was replete with sexual symbolism; hierodular [sacred] prostitution, ritual bestiality were among the observances of its cult. The religions of Babylonia, of Asia Minor, of the far-flung Semitic colonies, were notorious for the licentiousness of their rites: their priestesses were sacred prostitutes and prostitution was incumbent upon every woman.

'Nearly all peoples, except the Egyptians and the Greeks,' says Herodotus, 'have intercourse with women in the temples.'

But the exceptions which he mentions are not borne out even by his own testimony. The religion of Greece, though obscenity and license were attenuated in its later phases, presented the same rites and the same features as those of Babylon and Syria; brothels were attached to the temples; phallic emblems, ritual obscenity, the conventionalized celebration of the sexual union remained to the last as features of its most sacred ceremonies. Even the austere and simple religion of Rome was associated in its most venerated native rites with ithyphallic images [showing the genitalia] of the gods, Fescennine [obscene] ribaldry, and symbolic coitus" (pp.31,32). This appraisal by Prof. Briffault is most accurate.

To this common description of early religious beliefs, we have the incident of Aaron bringing out the bull for the Israelites to worship when Moses remained longer on Mount Sinai than the people thought. The people were getting edgy so Aaron made a festivity for them by fashioning the golden calf and told them to worship the calf in a sexual manner (Exodus 32:25-35). God was angry with Aaron and the people for this. But the people thought that by their sexual actions they were actually worshipping God in a proper way. Their worship was to "Baal-Peor" (Hebrew: "Lord of the Opening," that is, "Lord of the Vagina") (see Psalm 106:28,29 for this identification). The rebellious Israelites were making images (and setting up pillars) in honor of this pagan deity that demanded gross sexual actions as a part of the "nature rituals" by the worshippers. This was nothing strange to the Israelites because most Gentile religious activities involved a measure of sexual activity as a part of their liturgies and rituals.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

June 28th, 2009, 2:54 am #15

Donnie,

You have failed to produce one quotation from God's Holy Word that specifically and explicitly says that instruments are 1) Sinful, or 2) Displeasing to God, or 3) Will put you in danger of Hellfire, or 4) where Jesus said anything against using them, or 5) any apostle in the NT saying anything against using them.

You have proven in your own answer that your are speaking here the sciptures are silent, you are passing judgement where God has not, and you are building a doctrine on your own interpretation.

John's personal attack on the elder in the church of Christ was also based on his own opinion and not on the specific and explicit word of God. His personal attacks on the many independent and autonomous congregations of the Lord's Church are based not on the specific and explicit word of God but only on his own opinion. It was John, and not I, who told an elder of a church of Christ to leave the church of Christ if that elder did not agree with John's opinion.

I believe his history is relevant because he does not show the grace shown to him.

You claim I am attacking the Lord's Church? Prove it from God's word, not from your opinion.

You claim I am ignorant of and changing Restortation Movement history? Prove it from actual facts and not your's or John's distorted and self-serving generalizations.

And finally, produce one quotation from God's Holy Word that specifically and explicitly says that you are authorized to condemn where God has not condemned, where you are authorized to speak where God is silent, where you are authorized to pass judgement where God has not, where you are authorized to call something a sin that God has not called a sin.

Let it be known to all that this website speaks opinions only and not the pure specific and explicit Word of God.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

I produced a couple of familiar passages [to you, I know] related to what occurs when the New Testament saints meet. The saints meet in order to teach and admonish one another "IN[/color] psalms and hymns and spiritual songs ... making melody <font size="5">IN your hearts to the Lord."

Where do you find "to teach and admonish one another WITH the sound of the trumpet, the timbrel and dance, the psaltery, etc., ... making melody WITH the tambourines and cymbals and organs"?

Ray, if God is silent while David, the skilled musician who ordained musical instruments, is noisy, you had better be silent, too. God did not ordain musical instruments; David the king of Israel did.

You still do not comprehend at all that virtually all of churches of Christ do not indulge in instrumental music idolatry. The few congregations that do have associated themselves with the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches. If you're brave enough to check it out, do it, Ray. Just do a Google search for that association's website.

So far as producing a "thou shalt not use musical devices in the assembly" passage, that is not going to happen because the "singing" passages are explicit enough in stating that the "teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER" [the KEY DIRECTIVE] is the "word of Christ" in the songs.

Ray, I know that YOU DO NOT "worship the Virgin Mary, 'Mother of God.'" Do you? One question that you must answer: "Is there an explicit command: 'Thou shalt not worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God'?" Of course, not!!! See what I mean? That's why we do not have to look for a "thou shalt not cocaine" in order not to use it.

Go right ahead if you have the power to be taught and admonished God's truth with David-approved psalteries, cymbals and timbrels.

It is God's truth that's passing judgment on those that make assumptions -- not I nor this website.

Again, Ray, a reminder to you that this website is aligned with the mainstream or mainline congregations of the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is, of course, not aligned with the change agents operating in the brotherhood, the church dissidents and apostates. Why would you expect this website to be aligned with you and your cohorts?</font>
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

June 28th, 2009, 3:14 am #16

Donnie mentions the purpose of this website. The real purpose of this website is clearly obvious and is referred to in the scriptures often, always in the negative:

"Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved...Do not grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall." (1 Corinthian 10:6, 10-12, NASB)

"for the LORD hears your grumblings which you grumble against Him. And what are we? Your grumblings are not against us but against the LORD." (Exodus 16:8, NASB)

"How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who are grumbling against Me? I have heard the complaints of the sons of Israel, which they are making against Me. Say to them, 'As I live,' says the LORD, 'just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will surely do to you; your corpses will fall in this wilderness, even all your numbered men, according to your complete number from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against Me." (Numbers 14:27-30, NASB)

"Do all things without grumbling or disputing; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain." (Philippians 2:14-16, NASB)

"Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door." (James 5:9, NASB)

"It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage. But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts." These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit." (Jude 1:14-19, NASB)

It is the grumblers that sin and cause division, not the ones who are grumbled against.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

Thousands of peaceful congregations of the Lord's church worldwide do not need to be disturbed, infiltrated, and intruded upon by the apostles of the Community Church Movement.

I've already explained to you numerous times that the change agents are THE ONES creating conflict in their targeted congregations.

I'll have to explain again, since nothing is sinking in, that the few congregations that have succumbed to the agenda of the "left-wing conspirators" of the Change Movement are practically the Christian Church denomination's surrogates. Or, they are now members of the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches. These WERE the congregations that not only implemented instrumental music in their worship assemblies but also acquired doctrines, beliefs and practices from their denominational neighbors. [/color]
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Ray
Ray

June 28th, 2009, 10:15 pm #17

Donnie,

I do not believe you are correct. Nearly all of the congregations of the churches of Christ that men like you, Ken, and other grumblers on this site attack are not community churches (although they do faithfully serve God and serve their community; they have not left the churches of Christ (although men such as you, John, Ken, and the grumblers have tried to divide them away from the body of Christ); and have not desire to leave the community of the churches of Christ.

So who is causing division? Those who choose to faithfully serve God and serve their fallow man, or those who meddle and personally attack independent, autonomous and faithful churches of Christ because of differences of opinion over clearly disputable matters?

Neither you, not John, nor Ken, nor any other grumbler on this website has ever answered the question: Where has God given you clear, specific, and explicit authority to call something a sin where God has not, pass judgement over a matter where God has not, or divide over a matter where God has not?

I believe the scriptures clearly, specifically, and explicitiy teach that we are not permitted to call something a sin where God has not, pass judgement over a matter where God has not, or divide over a matter where God has not.

But it seems that you, John, Ken, and the other grumblers believe that you are entitled to call something a sin where God has not, pass judgement over a matter where God has not, or divide over a matter where God has not. I'll have to ask again, since nothing is sinking in: Where do you get this authority to call something a sin where God has not, pass judgement over a matter where God has not, or divide over a matter where God has not?
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

June 30th, 2009, 6:43 pm #18

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

The expression "nearly all of the congregations of the church of Christ" is applicable to the majority of, if not all, the thousands of churches worldwide that do not engage the participation of musical devices in the assembly of New Testament saints. I'll have to keep stating it again and again that the few churches that do -- that are aligned with you and your camp -- use instrumental music. These few churches (numbered at around 20 out of 18,000+) that use IM have become Christian Church surrogates or are associated with the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches.

How much plainer can I state that to you? Don't you comprehend anything that simple? What you want to believe is that 17,980 of 18,000 congregations worldwide use IM and are aligned with you and the Change Agents. That just isn't the case.

Ray, presenting those facts DOES NOT DIVIDE the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. Presenting those facts simply shows that those 20 congregations, at no fault of their own, had their elders succumbing to whatever societal, culture-driven methodologies and approaches to numerical church growth, as well as to their own selfish desires.

I'm just checking with you: Ray, is there anything I've stated so far that is unclear to you?

So, who is causing division? Is it the change agents operating in the brotherhood and their disciples, the elders of these FEW congregations? Or, is it the 17,980 congregations that have so far refused to yield to the temptation of doing holy entertainment in their assemblies?

It's really time to get your facts staight, Ray.

I'm glad you've admitted that the use of musical devices in the assembly is a disputable matter. One thing clear is that teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER IN psalms and hymns and spiritual songs is NOT DISPUTABLE.

This website has always maintained: Why indulge in CONTROVERSIAL, UNNECESSARY AND DIVISIVE matters and issues?[/color]
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James
James

June 30th, 2009, 7:44 pm #19

I don't think either side here is presenting a Christ like manner. There is no love in these forums or the people that live in them. I am sure there is a big enough thorn in everyones eye that maybe we should all be worried about what we are doing and not what our brother is doing; and speaking of following the example, try and show others a LOT more love when you speak to them. Only one person was and can be perfect and it's for sure not any of us here!
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

June 30th, 2009, 8:40 pm #20

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]James,

Would you like to initiate a new thread about "LOVE"?

You see, "love" God is a command. In truth, "If ye love me, keep my commandments," the Lord says (John 14:15).

To "love" your neighbor is also a command. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" (Gal. 5:14; Jas. 2:8). I Thess. 1:3 speaks of "your work of faith and labor of love." We by love "serve one another" (Gal. 5:13). I John 3:18 speaks as follows -- "let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth."

James, the concern here is about the change agents who, in their efforts to restructure or transform the church that Christ established, are disturbing peaceful congregations by modifying God's directives for His church and implementing CONTROVERSIAL, UNNECESSARY AND DIVISIVE changes. Why can't they leave the church alone or start their own church(es) from scratch?

The discussion is not about "love."

The discussion is not about perfection.

The discussion is about the division caused by those who aren't satisfied with God's simple directive to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER in psalms and hymns and spritirual songs." God did not ordain musical instruments. David, the king of Israel, did that. II Chronicles 29:27 -- check it out. [/color]
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