A Question To All

A Question To All

Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

September 19th, 2007, 7:07 pm #1

One of the functions of the newly (anti-Scriptural - meaning no Scriptural backing) Involvement Minister at Madison is to help members discover their talents and drives.*

I have two questions directed to each reader who regularly attends a congregation. The questions are: 1.) “Did it take someone at your congregation to help you discover your talents and drives?” 2.) “Should the other members of the congregation be financially charged with the personal help that you received from the person (Involvement Minister) who helped you?”

In Christ,
Jimmy

<font size=1>* p. 1, Madison Marcher, Vol. 56, No. 6, June 2007</font>
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biblesays
biblesays

September 21st, 2007, 5:42 pm #2

1.) “Did it take someone at your congregation to help you discover your talents and drives?”
IT HELPS! GOD WORKS THROUGH THEM AND MANY OTHERS.

Response question:
DID IT TAKE SOMEONE AT YOUR CONGREGATION (i.e. a preacher) TO HELP YOU READ AND DISCOVER WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS?

2.) “Should the other members of the congregation be financially charged with the personal help that you received from the person (Involvement Minister) who helped you?”
WHY NOT?

Again:
SHOULD THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE CONGREGATION BE FINANCIALLY CHARGED WITH THE PERSONAL HELP YOU RECEIVED FROM THE PERSON (PREACHER / MINISTER) WHO HELPED YOU LEARN THE BIBLE, OR ENCOURAGED YOU BY VISITING YOU IN THE HOSPITAL, PRAYING WITH YOU ONE ON ONE WHEN YOU NEED IT, ETC.????
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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

September 22nd, 2007, 6:46 am #3

In answer to the first question, you wrote: GOD WORKS THROUGH THEM AND MANY OTHERS.

If God works through them, why must they quit a paying job and hobo the church? Can't God work through the working man and woman?

To question number two you changed the subject from an Involvement Minister to the preacher. I am not in any way discussing support of a person who sows the seed, i.e., teaches the Bible. I am discussing a person who quits his paying job to direct people to the rest rooms or class rooms and makes the church think that he should be paid for his services.

You also wrote, ENCOURAGED YOU BY VISITING YOU IN THE HOSPITAL, PRAYING WITH YOU ONE ON ONE WHEN YOU NEED IT,

Again I ask should a person be paid to visit people in the hospital? I certainly do not want a PAID visitor coming into my room in the name of Jesus.

If one follows the teaching's of the Bible, he would call for the elders when sick or in need of prayer.

In Christ,
Jimmy
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

September 22nd, 2007, 3:02 pm #4

<font color=blue>Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?</font>

Jesus promised His "ekklesia" which has the same meaning as the synagogue. Its purpose in the wilderness was to REST, read and rehearse the Word of God. The word WORK outlaws "sending out ministers" and "speaking your own words" (Isa 58). There assuredly were no collection plates passed to FUND someone to soak up their surplus money and time. Nor is there a "law of giving" in the church to fund such a "master" even if common sense did not condemn it. The church has no right to "involve" people in anything other than being a Bible School. People are equipped for that ministry by the elders who are the only Pastor-teachers God permits. They were honored but not waged. Any such effort to be Chanellers is the mark of a cult. Most people have a healthy contempt for such people who rarely have the skills for which they are DOLED.

If the elders TAUGHT "that which had been taught" and the congregation teaches one another "singing" that which is written, the equipping task would go from bottom up and not top down.

<font color=blue>Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles [speak]; and some, prophets [speak]; and some, evangelists [speak]; and some, pastors and teachers; [speak]</font>

The Spirit OF Christ spoke through the prophets: this was almost always to repudiate kings and priests and all of the "religion" which had been imposed because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. The last straw was when the ELDERS fired God and hired a "dominant pastor" to rule over them. God warned that the king would collect all of his bonded buddies to suck up all of the money and time and enslave the people. When elders are incompetent and have to hire a PASTOR to do their work while they get the "power" the PREDESTIANTED outcome is that the pastor will try to fire the vocational deacons and HIRE his own friends--love those women--to ride tandem on the backs of widows and HONEST working people who NEED no help in planning their time.

<font color=blue>Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying [speak to EDUCATION] of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the UNITY of THE FAITH, and of the KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:</font>

Paul had to KNOW a crucified Christ and not even ACCEPT FOOD from Corinth to MARK the false teachers Peter calls CORRUPTERS of the Word meaning "selling learning at retail". However, to the PERFECTED Paul fed them with the MEAT OF THE WORD.
This OUTLAWS the chance for "cunning craftsmen" to get their fangs into the body.

<font style "ariel" color=red size=4>Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be nomore children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive;</font>

This outlaws: panourg-êma , atos, to, A. knavish trick, villainy, sophistry,
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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

September 22nd, 2007, 9:44 pm #5

What disturbes me about the situation is that a guy, who had a good paying job, is encouraged to give up working for a living and come let the church GIVE him his living!

Did Madison advertise and give other people the opportunity to apply for this PAYING JOB? Did the elders at Madison announce to the congregation that they were looking for someone to fill this PAYING position?

It looks to me as if Literal Seed would have been more qualified for the position then Tom Haddon. It would also seem that one of the kind old ladies in the congregation would have been more adept to this PAYING position then Tom. After all it is just a 'patting folks on the back' job and has no foundation what-so-ever in the Scriptures.

In Christ,
Jimmy
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Joined: February 27th, 2006, 10:01 pm

September 24th, 2007, 3:33 am #6

I want to be clear on this subject. According to the denominational teachings of the churches of Chtist each congregation is independent and autonomous free from the dictates from other entities. Each congregation is free to observe biblical teachings without interference from outside parties. It is a relationship between the congregation and God Almighty himself. So Brother Wren, unless you are a member of the Madison church where do you get off telling them how to spend their money and what responsibilites each minister should have ?! If the Madison church wants a minister of Involvement, children's ministry, or singles ministry that is up to them and it is none of your business how they want to employ their ministers. If you are a member, then who elected you Pope ?? There is an avenue to discuss your points of view within the congregation and that is discussed in the Bible. If they listen to you and the Elders decide that it is still good to have a Minister of Involvement, THEN OBEY THE BIBLE AND BE SUBJECTED TO THEIR AUTHORITY. If you cannot do this leave and go to a congregation that does not have a Minister of Involvement.
As far as soliciting a member from a secular job to become a minister I say Bravo. They are following the lead of Christ when he called fishermen, tax collectors and the such to become his ministers of the Gospel meassage.
I know first hand of a nationally known motivational speaker who charged over $1,000 a day to hold workshops and seminars for various corporations. The local congregation was in dire need of leadership and a pulpit minister so he gave up the worlds goods and took that position for quite a lower pay.
I say the following with all sincerity: get off this issue and let the congregation at Madison fulfill its God given duty to represent Christ on Earth.
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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

September 24th, 2007, 3:23 pm #7

harry smith writes: According to the denominational teachings of the churches of Chtist...

Jimmy replies: If the Church of Christ is a denomination it must have an earthly headquarters and each part, i.e., individual congregations, of the denomination must follow the creed and other laws defined by the earthly headquarters. However if each individual congregation refuses to recognize an earthly headquarters with laws and creeds as rule over them, but submits to the Bible only as their rule, then the churches of Christ cannot be a denomination.

Deal with this harry smith and then we will continue the discussion of the organization of the independant Church of Christ. I will write that each independant church must be organized as other independant churches of Christ. Ministers and ministries that are unknown by the Spirit in the word of God cannot be of God but are the making of man.

What a shame when men start looking to the church for their support! If a man (Tom Haddon) refuses to work, don't let him eat!

In Christ,
Jimmy
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biblesays
biblesays

September 24th, 2007, 3:46 pm #8

In answer to the first question, you wrote: GOD WORKS THROUGH THEM AND MANY OTHERS.

If God works through them, why must they quit a paying job and hobo the church? Can't God work through the working man and woman?

To question number two you changed the subject from an Involvement Minister to the preacher. I am not in any way discussing support of a person who sows the seed, i.e., teaches the Bible. I am discussing a person who quits his paying job to direct people to the rest rooms or class rooms and makes the church think that he should be paid for his services.

You also wrote, ENCOURAGED YOU BY VISITING YOU IN THE HOSPITAL, PRAYING WITH YOU ONE ON ONE WHEN YOU NEED IT,

Again I ask should a person be paid to visit people in the hospital? I certainly do not want a PAID visitor coming into my room in the name of Jesus.

If one follows the teaching's of the Bible, he would call for the elders when sick or in need of prayer.

In Christ,
Jimmy
You asked: "If God works through them, why must they quit a paying job and hobo the church? Can't God work through the working man and woman?

Absolutely! He works through them ALL. Can He work ONLY through the "working man and woman?" Do we want to limit God like that? Besides, is the involvement minister not "working" unless he is a plumber or salesman or something? Is the preacher a "working man?"

Also, I don't believe they MUST "quit a paying job" and I don't think being paid as an involvement minister is "hobo-ing the church." No more than the pulpit minister would be. What I do believe is that it is ACCEPTABLE to hire various ministers to do various things. We hire plumbers to fix toilets. Is that acceptable, and "authorized"? Can we hire plumbers but not ministers of involvement? What authority do we use to to authorize one and forbid the other?

Do you believe it is unscriptural to hire any minister other than a pulpit minister who does anything else but preach and teach the word? Is he forbidden to answer the phone or do any other work while "on the clock" except what directly related to preaching the word?

I do agree that what we often expect of preachers is really what elders primarily, and members as a whole as well should be doing (visiting, etc.). But, does that mean it is FORBIDDEN to hire a minister to some task whether it be visiting, encouraging, youth ministry (which involves both teaching the word, administative stuff, "fun" trips or whatever), outreach minister, or involvement minister? If it is forbidden, who forbids it? I don't know any Bible passage or principle that does. Do you? I agree with Harry Smith that we must be careful not to sit in judgment and self-imposed authority in dictating what congregations can and can not do. Even in the congregation we attend. Are you a member at Madison? If so, have you brought any SCRIPTURAL objection to them about your belief? Have you considered going elsewhere where they do everything just as you would approve of it?

Additionally, you referred to "directing people to rest rooms and class rooms." While a church is free to hire someone to do this if they see the need, that is not the job description mentioned in the first post of this forum. It said something like helping members to discover their talents.... Usually, an involvement minister's job is primarily that. They help members fulfill (or "obey") I Cor. 12, Eph. 4, and other passages. They primarily do this through teaching and encouraging, though not necessarily from the pulpit. How is this unscriptural?

You also alluded to a person having to pay a minister for services to other people in the congregation. If the church pays a youth minister to teach and work with the teens, is this unfair, or wrong since there are many in the congregation that do not have teens, and therefore are having to pay for services provided to others? How is this different from hiring an involvement minister, who USUALLY provides services to all members - or at least those who are willing to get involved. If you are a member of Madison, perhaps you could go talk to the involvement minister who may be able to help you get more involved in the work of the church rather than discrediting it. Then YOU would benefit from it and wouldn't be paying for somebody else to get the services - assuming you do give to the church that is! If not, I suppose others will be paying for you to receive services.

BOTTOM LINE IS: If members were "involved" as they should be in the first place, there may not be as much of a need for an "involvement minister." Do you agree?

Perhaps if you get more involved, and encourage others as a "working man" to get more involved and use the talents God has given everyone, then at some point the involvement minister will no longer be needed and he can go out and get a "real job". Whatcha' think?


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Joined: February 27th, 2006, 10:01 pm

September 24th, 2007, 11:08 pm #9

harry smith writes: According to the denominational teachings of the churches of Chtist...

Jimmy replies: If the Church of Christ is a denomination it must have an earthly headquarters and each part, i.e., individual congregations, of the denomination must follow the creed and other laws defined by the earthly headquarters. However if each individual congregation refuses to recognize an earthly headquarters with laws and creeds as rule over them, but submits to the Bible only as their rule, then the churches of Christ cannot be a denomination.

Deal with this harry smith and then we will continue the discussion of the organization of the independant Church of Christ. I will write that each independant church must be organized as other independant churches of Christ. Ministers and ministries that are unknown by the Spirit in the word of God cannot be of God but are the making of man.

What a shame when men start looking to the church for their support! If a man (Tom Haddon) refuses to work, don't let him eat!

In Christ,
Jimmy
Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes once said in his court concerning a tax case where the defendant tried to avoid taxes by defining itself as a non-profit organization, "If it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, then, this court is going to call it a duck no matter what you call yourself." I take the same view of the churches of Christ as they call themselves non denominational yet they have distict lines of fellowship where if certain doctrinal rules are not followed then that group is not part of the fellowship. Once the churches of Christ holds other christian groups to a doctrinal standard of non- instrumentalism they have forfieted the right to call themselves nondenomination and have become like any other group that imposes rules to determine fellowship. The actions and behvior of the churches of Christ have made the organization a denomination no matter what you call yourselves.

It appears you have highlighted this issue to draw attention from the original post. My contention is that complaining about how a congregation spends their money and who they appoint as ministers sounds like sour grapes on your part. Maybe because you are not in the ministry ?? If you are a member of Madison then complain to the elders. If you are not a member of Madison then its none of your business who they select as part of their ministry team.
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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

September 25th, 2007, 2:00 am #10

You asked: "If God works through them, why must they quit a paying job and hobo the church? Can't God work through the working man and woman?

Absolutely! He works through them ALL. Can He work ONLY through the "working man and woman?" Do we want to limit God like that? Besides, is the involvement minister not "working" unless he is a plumber or salesman or something? Is the preacher a "working man?"

Also, I don't believe they MUST "quit a paying job" and I don't think being paid as an involvement minister is "hobo-ing the church." No more than the pulpit minister would be. What I do believe is that it is ACCEPTABLE to hire various ministers to do various things. We hire plumbers to fix toilets. Is that acceptable, and "authorized"? Can we hire plumbers but not ministers of involvement? What authority do we use to to authorize one and forbid the other?

Do you believe it is unscriptural to hire any minister other than a pulpit minister who does anything else but preach and teach the word? Is he forbidden to answer the phone or do any other work while "on the clock" except what directly related to preaching the word?

I do agree that what we often expect of preachers is really what elders primarily, and members as a whole as well should be doing (visiting, etc.). But, does that mean it is FORBIDDEN to hire a minister to some task whether it be visiting, encouraging, youth ministry (which involves both teaching the word, administative stuff, "fun" trips or whatever), outreach minister, or involvement minister? If it is forbidden, who forbids it? I don't know any Bible passage or principle that does. Do you? I agree with Harry Smith that we must be careful not to sit in judgment and self-imposed authority in dictating what congregations can and can not do. Even in the congregation we attend. Are you a member at Madison? If so, have you brought any SCRIPTURAL objection to them about your belief? Have you considered going elsewhere where they do everything just as you would approve of it?

Additionally, you referred to "directing people to rest rooms and class rooms." While a church is free to hire someone to do this if they see the need, that is not the job description mentioned in the first post of this forum. It said something like helping members to discover their talents.... Usually, an involvement minister's job is primarily that. They help members fulfill (or "obey") I Cor. 12, Eph. 4, and other passages. They primarily do this through teaching and encouraging, though not necessarily from the pulpit. How is this unscriptural?

You also alluded to a person having to pay a minister for services to other people in the congregation. If the church pays a youth minister to teach and work with the teens, is this unfair, or wrong since there are many in the congregation that do not have teens, and therefore are having to pay for services provided to others? How is this different from hiring an involvement minister, who USUALLY provides services to all members - or at least those who are willing to get involved. If you are a member of Madison, perhaps you could go talk to the involvement minister who may be able to help you get more involved in the work of the church rather than discrediting it. Then YOU would benefit from it and wouldn't be paying for somebody else to get the services - assuming you do give to the church that is! If not, I suppose others will be paying for you to receive services.

BOTTOM LINE IS: If members were "involved" as they should be in the first place, there may not be as much of a need for an "involvement minister." Do you agree?

Perhaps if you get more involved, and encourage others as a "working man" to get more involved and use the talents God has given everyone, then at some point the involvement minister will no longer be needed and he can go out and get a "real job". Whatcha' think?

biblesays: ...Whatcha' think?

Jimmy replies: biblesays, everything that you wrote makes a lot of sense for a 'worldly organization.' I have no problem with any of what you write if it is a man made organization.

The church of Christ is not a man made organization. Let me be quick to say that I care not who is paid to build a building or plumb the rest rooms. I do care about who is paid to help shepard a flock. According to the Scriptures God also cares about who helps tend his sheep.

Qualifications for preachers, teachers, elders and deacons are to be found in the Holy Scriptures. The Holy Scriptures also affirm that, 'according as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:' 2 Peter 1:3

Where do you find your 'freedom' to appoint new offices/ministers in the body of Christ, let alone pay them?

I replied to harry smith that if you think that the church is a denomination then it makes no difference what you do in a church! After all it is made by man; ruled by man; made for man; and it will perish with man. But if you believe the church to be the Body of Christ then all of what we are discussing will matter to you.

In Christ,
Jimmy

ps, I think that you should have got the job instead of Tom!
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