A question for Donnie

A question for Donnie

Jimmy Joe
Jimmy Joe

June 8th, 2011, 3:23 am #1

I have a short question for Donnie. To be concise I will also inform you the reason for the question. Donnie, did you ever serve in the military? I am asking because last Sunday Buck Dozier recognized a U.S. Marine that had just returned from combat in Afghanistan. The congregation rose to their feet and gave that Marine an ovation welcoming him safely back home. As I applauded and looked around at the other members showing their gratification I couldn't help but notice you in the critics pew sitting as if nothing had occured.

I come from a military family and am a veteran myself therefore I cannot understand how someone cannot recoginze the sacrifices of that Marine and all the others serving in the military today. Without their sacrifces and the sacrifices of the ones that served before them, the freedoms we enjoy today would not exist. Thanks to them, you have the freedom and the right to sit and ignore. It's your right but I just don't understand.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 8th, 2011, 8:27 am #2

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Jimmy Joe,

I do appreciate your military background and experience. (Since the time we met a few years ago, I have not forgotten what you told me about your services, as well as your family's, for the country I truly love.) Please don't get me wrong -- I truly get "emotional" about the sacrifices of those in service for the country. And, no, I did not serve in the military.

I have just listened to the first portion of the recording of the unusual -- "A Vision for the Future," the message delivered by "The Shepherds" [note to the reader: it's the trend and the now-preferred way to refer to them...instead of "elders"]. With the exception of Buck Dozier, the other three speakers have served only in these years since the upheaval. (BTW, I recall a phone conversation I had with Dozier a few years ago concerning the Madison congregation and ConcernedMembers. I made notes afterward, but it turned out that the conversation was more about the congregation than about CM--how that Nick Boone was not really the up-to-the-task type of "worship leader" for the youth; etc.; etc. It was a friendly conversation. I could say more; but your post is not really about Dozier. Dave Fields, are you listening to me?]

Anyway, you are correct in that Buck Dozier did make that recognition of the U.S. Marine who had just returned home.

My bad, OK? I think I was distracted by some of the "worship" activities. I had some difficulty hearing B. Dozier at first [perhaps an attention deficiency], although I had/have no problem at all listening to the overpowering "Praise Team" singing TO/FOR the congregation.

The "praise" music by Tim Hughes/Chris Tomlin titled "Beautiful One" was somewhat disturbing in that there seems to be the element of romanticism in both the lyrics and the music performed -- I know and realize there shouldn't be that element. (Note: this is one reason, according to RESEARCHES on Contemporary Christian Music, that men reluctantly and hesitatingly sing romantic songs about Jesus.)

Here's part of the lyrics:[/color]
"... how beautiful You are

Chorus:
Beautiful one I love
Beautiful one I adore
Beautiful one my soul must sing

[powerful ... glory ... mighty works ... majesty]

Chorus(x2)

... You captured my heart with this love
Cause nothing on earth is as beautiful as You

Jesus

... You captured my heart with this love
Cause nothing on earth is as beautiful as You
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is good that the elders are taking time to be concerned about the alarming news that, while comparing to the nationwide-worldwide trends to determine church problems, the Madison congregation is included in the realistic statistical information presented by them. Of course, why should they not admit to, or at least mention, the massive departure of members when the culture-driven church growth schemes of the change agents were implemented and wreaked havoc a decade ago? They are soliciting suggestions and solutions from the current membership. But one thing ought to be strongly considered is the elimination of the Praise Team. And return to congregational singing. That we've had enough of their performances. At least, donate the individual microphones they use to the Charismatic musical groups.

Well, I'm talking too much now, but I think there are those who might be interested in knowing about what's happening at Madison.

Jimmy Joe, thanks for asking. Would you shoot me an e-mail? I would like to converse with you more, i.e., if you don't mind.[/color]
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 8th, 2011, 1:14 pm #3

While our military veterans should be honored for their service, there is a time and place to do so. I really don't think the worship assembly is the most appropriate place for that, however. We should worship God and focus all our attention on giving Him the praise and honor in our assemblies. When we divide our assembly time to honoring human beings with cheers, standing ovations, and boisterous accolades, we shortchange God.

When I was organist for a Southern Baptist church, the assemblies closest to the 4th of July focused almost entirely on patriotic themes: having representatives of the military on hand with the color guard in procession, singing the National Anthem, "America," "America the Beautiful," "This Is My Country," "God Bless America," and other patriotic songs. I played the FIGHT songs for the major branches of the Armed Forces: "Marines Hymn," "Wild Blue Yonder" (Air Force), "The Army Goes Rolling Along," "Anchors Aweigh" (Navy), and "Semper Paratus" (Coast Guard). The crowd loved it. We may have even said the "Pledge of Allegiance." The soldiers and flag were the shining lights of the hour, not God. Some megachurches go so far as to have huge extravaganzas that include indoor fireworks in their "worship assemblies." That's really not worship; that's a worldly performance.

If you're going to honor soldiers and the flag, honor them apart from the worship assembly. Don't cheat God.
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Dave
Dave

June 8th, 2011, 2:39 pm #4

I have a short question for Donnie. To be concise I will also inform you the reason for the question. Donnie, did you ever serve in the military? I am asking because last Sunday Buck Dozier recognized a U.S. Marine that had just returned from combat in Afghanistan. The congregation rose to their feet and gave that Marine an ovation welcoming him safely back home. As I applauded and looked around at the other members showing their gratification I couldn't help but notice you in the critics pew sitting as if nothing had occured.

I come from a military family and am a veteran myself therefore I cannot understand how someone cannot recoginze the sacrifices of that Marine and all the others serving in the military today. Without their sacrifces and the sacrifices of the ones that served before them, the freedoms we enjoy today would not exist. Thanks to them, you have the freedom and the right to sit and ignore. It's your right but I just don't understand.
Same ole Donnie, just a different day. Jimmy Joe asks why Donnie sat while a service member was being honored and Donnie takes the chance, not to apologize, but to give his map of his changes for Madison. No Donnie....."My bad, OK?" is not an apology. Then you launch into an excuse of why you thought you were distracted. Instead of an apology you gave your usually satanic sermon of what is wrong with Madison, and what is needed to right the wrongs of yesterday. You got your prod in there for me too. Bravo. Get rid of the praise team and sell the microphones. You just don't seem like a very pleasant man to be around. You, Ken, and Bill do well together.....just not for the Lord's work.

Oh, by the way Donnie, no excuse would work for you sitting while the service member is being honored. NONE. If you see everyone else standing and you remain sitting in honor of the service member, there is no excuse viable. Your excuse doesn't give you the right to claim that you love your country.
It is pathetic.
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Dave
Dave

June 8th, 2011, 2:53 pm #5

I have a short question for Donnie. To be concise I will also inform you the reason for the question. Donnie, did you ever serve in the military? I am asking because last Sunday Buck Dozier recognized a U.S. Marine that had just returned from combat in Afghanistan. The congregation rose to their feet and gave that Marine an ovation welcoming him safely back home. As I applauded and looked around at the other members showing their gratification I couldn't help but notice you in the critics pew sitting as if nothing had occured.

I come from a military family and am a veteran myself therefore I cannot understand how someone cannot recoginze the sacrifices of that Marine and all the others serving in the military today. Without their sacrifces and the sacrifices of the ones that served before them, the freedoms we enjoy today would not exist. Thanks to them, you have the freedom and the right to sit and ignore. It's your right but I just don't understand.
Bill,
To recognize our service members isn't shortchanging God.
Paul boasted only in Christ....never himself. A Christian being honored for his duty to GOD and country.....gives the credit BACK to God (HENCE 'duty to GOD and country'). Every church should be proud that the Christian man or woman who serves their country is honoring GOD FIRST.
You and Donnie are alike.....you took the opportunity to spill your doom and gloom message by going outside the realms of the original thoughts of the author. He speaks about honoring service members....you go off on a tangent about fireworks in other churches. Donne takes the opportunity to talk about the great fall of 2001.
Nice touch.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 8th, 2011, 2:53 pm #6

While our military veterans should be honored for their service, there is a time and place to do so. I really don't think the worship assembly is the most appropriate place for that, however. We should worship God and focus all our attention on giving Him the praise and honor in our assemblies. When we divide our assembly time to honoring human beings with cheers, standing ovations, and boisterous accolades, we shortchange God.

When I was organist for a Southern Baptist church, the assemblies closest to the 4th of July focused almost entirely on patriotic themes: having representatives of the military on hand with the color guard in procession, singing the National Anthem, "America," "America the Beautiful," "This Is My Country," "God Bless America," and other patriotic songs. I played the FIGHT songs for the major branches of the Armed Forces: "Marines Hymn," "Wild Blue Yonder" (Air Force), "The Army Goes Rolling Along," "Anchors Aweigh" (Navy), and "Semper Paratus" (Coast Guard). The crowd loved it. We may have even said the "Pledge of Allegiance." The soldiers and flag were the shining lights of the hour, not God. Some megachurches go so far as to have huge extravaganzas that include indoor fireworks in their "worship assemblies." That's really not worship; that's a worldly performance.

If you're going to honor soldiers and the flag, honor them apart from the worship assembly. Don't cheat God.
BTW, I have never served in the military. After I finished a fellowship in Chicago years ago, I almost joined the Air Force. I had sent in the paperwork, but on the morning that I was scheduled for a physical, I got an offer for a job in a lab and took that instead. It literally came at the last minute. I didn't have the physical and never took the "oath." However, you could say that I was an "almost-veteran." Does that count? If worship assemblies are going to take time away from worshipping God by honoring soldiers and the flag, maybe they should also "honor" us "almost-veterans" with half-salutes, half-stanzas of patriotic songs, whispered cheers, and bending (not standing) ovations.
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Dave
Dave

June 8th, 2011, 6:29 pm #7

I have a short question for Donnie. To be concise I will also inform you the reason for the question. Donnie, did you ever serve in the military? I am asking because last Sunday Buck Dozier recognized a U.S. Marine that had just returned from combat in Afghanistan. The congregation rose to their feet and gave that Marine an ovation welcoming him safely back home. As I applauded and looked around at the other members showing their gratification I couldn't help but notice you in the critics pew sitting as if nothing had occured.

I come from a military family and am a veteran myself therefore I cannot understand how someone cannot recoginze the sacrifices of that Marine and all the others serving in the military today. Without their sacrifces and the sacrifices of the ones that served before them, the freedoms we enjoy today would not exist. Thanks to them, you have the freedom and the right to sit and ignore. It's your right but I just don't understand.
I must ask....what is an "almost-veteran?"

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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 8th, 2011, 8:14 pm #8

Bill,
To recognize our service members isn't shortchanging God.
Paul boasted only in Christ....never himself. A Christian being honored for his duty to GOD and country.....gives the credit BACK to God (HENCE 'duty to GOD and country'). Every church should be proud that the Christian man or woman who serves their country is honoring GOD FIRST.
You and Donnie are alike.....you took the opportunity to spill your doom and gloom message by going outside the realms of the original thoughts of the author. He speaks about honoring service members....you go off on a tangent about fireworks in other churches. Donne takes the opportunity to talk about the great fall of 2001.
Nice touch.
I don't think God would appreciate our sharing the time we worship and praise Him in the asssembly with honoring and praising our service people. Reserve the assembly for giving ALL worship to God; don't split the honor between God and the service people in the assembly. Honor the latter in a secular meeting apart from the worship assembly. Don't cheat God.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 8th, 2011, 8:51 pm #9

I must ask....what is an "almost-veteran?"
"Almost-veteran" was deliberately placed in quotation marks. The winking face says that Dave should have enough sense to figure out what that means.
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Sonny
Sonny

June 9th, 2011, 3:25 am #10

While our military veterans should be honored for their service, there is a time and place to do so. I really don't think the worship assembly is the most appropriate place for that, however. We should worship God and focus all our attention on giving Him the praise and honor in our assemblies. When we divide our assembly time to honoring human beings with cheers, standing ovations, and boisterous accolades, we shortchange God.

When I was organist for a Southern Baptist church, the assemblies closest to the 4th of July focused almost entirely on patriotic themes: having representatives of the military on hand with the color guard in procession, singing the National Anthem, "America," "America the Beautiful," "This Is My Country," "God Bless America," and other patriotic songs. I played the FIGHT songs for the major branches of the Armed Forces: "Marines Hymn," "Wild Blue Yonder" (Air Force), "The Army Goes Rolling Along," "Anchors Aweigh" (Navy), and "Semper Paratus" (Coast Guard). The crowd loved it. We may have even said the "Pledge of Allegiance." The soldiers and flag were the shining lights of the hour, not God. Some megachurches go so far as to have huge extravaganzas that include indoor fireworks in their "worship assemblies." That's really not worship; that's a worldly performance.

If you're going to honor soldiers and the flag, honor them apart from the worship assembly. Don't cheat God.
Brother Cruz, how does your website fit in with complying with the command in Hebrews 13:17 to obey your leaders? How do you justify disobeying and disrespecting your elders at Madison with this site? Also, do you take the Lord's Supper at Madison, because if you do and there is division between you and members there then you are in danger of eating and drinking damnation to your soul per 1 Corinthians 11:17-34, as there is to be no divisions as you eat and drink of the bread and cup to honor Christ.

Also, Brother Crump, the Bible speaks of honoring people and not just God, such as Philippians 2:25-30 where Paul says to honor men like Epaphroditus. With this in mind, what about singing happy birthday to a member before a Bible class or at the end of worship? Tonight our congregation sang happy birthday to one of our elders before Bible class. Is that not o.k.?

-Sonny
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