Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 19th, 2009, 7:03 pm #21

I found your response interesting. Honestly a bit offensive at times but it's ok no big deal. I think your description of instrumental worship as "emotional masturbation" excessive but nevertheless I can agree with you in some ways. Music, be it secular or in church, can be emotionally manipulative. I find often times in churches I visit that music is idolized. People worry so much about the quality of sound or getting just the right mood that the Holy Spirit gets lost in the shuffle. These, however, are human faults in using music in worship. I believe music is a terrific gift from God and when employed properly with an attitude of humility to God it can be a tremendous blessing to people and Jesus Himself.

That being said I'd like to engage in some friendly dialogue on a few Scriptures. I'm curious to know what your interpretation is.

The first topic is King David and his use of instruments in worship. David himself was described as a man after God's own heart and was also a skilled harp player. "Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him." -1 Samuel 16:22-24

I'm also curious about your thoughts on the 288 Levite musicians David employed for worship. (1 Chronicles 25:1-7)

The third passage is a story from the life of Elisha in which he calls for a musician in order to focus his mind and heart in a worshipful attitude that God honors. "But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the LORD came upon him." -2 Kings 3:15

Finally, I'm wanting to know your interpretation on a text out of Revelation. "And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." -Revelation 5:7-10

To me this verse at most strongly indicates that instrumental worship occurs in heaven and the least John doesn't look poorly upon the use of instruments in worship.

Anyways, hope to hear from you soon...

In His Love,
Stephen
Part THREE

1Sam. 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.

QUANDRY: whether to post what is clearly said about this event or post the Bible's own definition which repudiates it? I think I will post your verse first and then look backward. Perhaps few are aware that God ABANDONED the Monarchy and whole sacrificial system and warned that the kings would steal their property, put them into slavery and lead them into captivity and death. Saul and David were military leaders which God PERMITTED who would have to slaughter all of their enemies by their own CUNNING. Back in the wilderness God said that He would chase them out with wasps or hornets but Israel rejected the GRACE and wanted to do it themselves.

When Saul "prophesied" he was despised by the WARRIORS because he acted like a raving mad man and effeminate. Furthermore, he took the glory for winning battles for himself and even built a monument to himself. The PURPOSE of the king was to DESTROY all of the enemies of the invading Israelites. He was not a spiritual leader. Saul tried to bluff the Philistines by claiming that he had "god" in the Ark but the Philistines were not intimidated. Therefore, Saul's rejection was based on his inability to be a MILITARY LEADER.

1Sam. 15:34 Then Samuel went to Ramah; and Saul went up to his house to Gibeah of Saul.
1Sam. 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death:
.........nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul:
.........and the LORD repented [grieved] that he had made Saul king over Israel.
1Sam. 16:1 And the LORD said unto Samuel,
.........How long wilt thou mourn for Saul,
.........seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? <b></b>
NOT AS MUSIC MINISTER
.........fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite:
.........for I have provided me a king among his sons.

1Sam. 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul,
.........and an evil spirit from the LORD/<b> troubled [frightened]him.</b>


When the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul He was through with him and told Samuel to "forget Saul." Therefore, God did not seek anyone to heal Saul's madness which was a STRONG DELUSION. Rather:

1Sam. 16:15 And Sauls servants said unto him,
.........Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.


HOW TO DO AN END RUN AROUND GOD. All of those who lie about the Word in order to IMPOSE instruments have also declared them the dominant pastor or "a king set over us" and the elders have been demonted to "shepherds only" and the deacons often have been replaced by women and hired hands. Therefore, they REPEAT the patternism.

1. Point? If God sends you a "spirit" that tells you to lie about all of the "instrument" passages to divide the "nation" then what do you do?
2. In the few examples of those who have already split their churches and families over "praise singing" "an EVIL spirit has been allowed to make them delusional."
3. They carry out their purpose and lie about not using instruments on Sunday and IMPOSE instruments.
4. The FACT of FORCING music is THEIR way of dispelling the evil spirit (well documented in the Book of Enoch) and the fall from grace at Mount Sinai.
5. When they PLAY they soothe (soothsayers) their derangement-delusions but only for the moment.

NOTE THAT GOD DID NOT WANT A "SOOTHE SAYER" TO HELP SAUL WHOM HE HAD DOOMED.

1Sam. 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man,
.........who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass,
.........when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well


You can TRIUMPH OVER God by the use of music: that is the SAME concept where God outlawed the ALARM or TRIUMPH OVER during "church in the wilderness." The CHANGELINGS boast about "upsetting people's comfort zones." Once they have survived hearing the musical ministers they will grumble but soon get over it.

The word PLAY is NAGAN 5059 which is the same as hChalal (h2490) meaning to play the flute, steal one's inheritance (throne), pollute or prostitute. h1984 is David's praise word meaning to "makes self vile" which is the root for LUCIFER.

1Sam. 16:18 Then answered one of the servants, and said,
.........Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite,
.........that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant

.........[gibbowr warrior, tyriant, champion, act insolently: just what God prophesied]
.........man, and a man of war,
.........and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him.
1Sam. 16:21 And David came to Saul, and stood before him:
.........and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer.


David would be a WARRIOR and not a worship leader.

Why shouldn't we believe that David was put in place to further drive Saul into and out of madness as a way to further discredit Saul in preparation for David to assume the throne. Later, the musical girls TAUNTED Saul with music to drive him further into madness

1Sam. 18:9 And Saul eyed David from that day and forward.
1Sam. 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow,
.........that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul,
.........and he prophesied in the midst of the house:
.........and David played with his hand, as at other times:
.........and there was a javelin in Sauls hand.
1Sam. 18:11 And Saul cast the javelin;
.........for he said, I will smite [strike, clap] David even to the wall with it.
.........And David avoided out of his presence twice.


This is the same charismatic ecstacy which was the ONLY PERSON used in paganism: by driving people to prophesy or become insane they believed that the spirits were holy. That is what happens when the music begans the ROCK beat (that "F" word from voodoo]

He prophesied in the midst of the house. He was beside himself; made prayers, supplications, and incoherent imprecations: 'God preserve my life,' 'Destroy my enemies,' or such like prayers, might frequently escape from him in his agitated state. The Arabic intimates that he was actually possessed by an evil spirit, and that through it he uttered a sort of demoniacal predictions." (Clark, 1 Sam 18, p. 270).

"In ancient times, says Justin, kings used a spear instead of a diadem: And as spears were the emblems of supreme power, hence they were reputed as attributes of the Divinity, and were worshipped as representatives of the gods." (Adam Clark, 1 Sam. 18, p. 270)

"We find demon-possessed Saul 'acting like a prophet' by becoming semi-conscious and immobile when attempting to apprehend David at Ramah..The context of this passage makes it clear that Saul's behavior was not the ordinary behavior of the true prophets of God." (Christianity Today, March 12,

"'Played the prophet,' viz., by gestures and demeanor.";Driver. "Rather, he raved."--Keil. "The word 'prophesy' describes an ecstatic condition due to supernatural influence, good or evil; the result in the one case being prophetic inspiration or religious enthusiasm, in the other raving madness."--Cambridge Bible. 1971, p. 541)


http://www.piney.com/Heredotus4.html#Now

Heredotus writes: Now the Scythians are wont to reproach the Greeks with their Bacchanal rage, and to say that it is not reasonable to imagine there is a god who impels men to madness. No sooner, therefore, was Scylas initiated in the Bacchic mysteries than one of the Borysthenites went and carried the news to the Scythians

You Scyths laugh at us" he said, "because we rave when the god seizes us.
But now our god has seized upon your king, who raves like us, and is maddened by the influence.
If you think I do not tell you true, come with me, and I will show him to you."

The chiefs of the Scythians went with the man accordingly, and the Borysthenite, conducting them into the city, placed them secretly on one of the towers.
Presently Scylas passed by with the band of revellers, raving like the rest, and was seen by the watchers.
Regarding the matter as a very great misfortune they instantly departed, and came and told the army what they had witnessed.


I have to tell you again that Jesus had nasty words for scribes and this is one of the accounts of the KING'S SCRIBE having to do 100% with military matters. The nation needed a strong tyrant instead of an effeminate madman to lead the CIVIL-MILITARY thread. On the large other hand, ALL of the spiritual truth is attributed only to the prophets: Jesus credits Abraham, Moses and the Prophets as speaking by the Spirit of Christ.

BEFORE LOOKING AT DAVID'S CUNNING PLAYING YOU SHOULD GRASP THAT BECAUSE OF MUSICAL IDOLATRY GOD HAD TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST: THIS WAS THEIR COVENANT WITH DEATH.

THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN SAVE OUT OF THE ABANDONMENT OF THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT WHICH REPLACED THE RULE OF GOD.

Cunning. 2803. chashab, khaw-shab´; a primitive root; properly, to plait or interpenetrate, i.e. (literally) to weave or (gen.) to fabricate; figuratively, to plot or contrive (usually in a malicious sense); hence (from the mental effort) to think, regard, value, compute:(make) account (of), conceive, consider, count, cunning (man, work, workman), devise, esteem, find out, forecast, hold, imagine, impute, invent, be like, mean, purpose, reckon(-ing be made), regard, think.
h2803Chashab

Weaving or Plaiting versed together to make songs was always done to fool the foolish: no one ever "made music" who did not intend to seduce people literally or to steal their "tithes and offerings. In the Gree:

Plek-ô , Pi.O. 6.86, etc.: fut. Twisted rope, basket work
II. metaph., devise, contrive, mostly of tortuous means, E.Ion826

.........[825] And the god has not deceived you; your husband deceived you long ago, rearing his son,
.............and wove such plots;
.............if convicted, he might ascribe it to the god . . .
.............he was about to invest him with the rule of your land. [830]
.............And he fashioned this new name at his leisure,

2. of Poets, p. humnon, rhêmata, Pi.O.6.86 weaving songs for spearmen


There are only 50 of the BOOK of Psalms suitable for used by the Jews but there would be no SINGING in the synagogue which was a school of the Bible--only.

Many of the rest are warriors panic songs: our god can destroy your gods.

Pale (g3823) pal'-ay; from pallo, (to vibrate; another form for 906); wrestling: - / wrestle
pallô, poise, sway a missile before it is thrown, sway, brandish, she drove it furiously, swing, dash oneself, tripped on the shield-rim, quiver, leap, esp. in fear, vibrate, of strings, Pl.Phd.94c (psalloito)


Greek: Class-Euripides-Ion.html.

Strong though thy beak beyond the feather'd kind,
My bow shall reach thee. Towards the altar, see,
A swan comes sailing: elsewhere wilt thou move
Thy scarlet-tinctured foot? or from my bow
The lyre of Phoebus to thy notes attuned
Will not protect thee; farther stretch thy wings;
Go, wanton, skim along the Delian lake,
Or wilt thou steep thy melody in blood.

Look, what strange bird comes onwards; wouldst thou fix
Beneath the battlements thy straw-built nest?
My singing bow shall drive thee hence; begone,
Or to the banks of Alpheus, gulfy stream, grace
Or to the Isthmian grove; there hatch thy young;

All of my stuff is free: I don't try to control people but supply facts to those being taken captive by preachers who deliberately lie about all of the Bible and all of the historical testimony against "music" which is one of the most powerful means ofexercising MIND CONTROL which works--according to history--only among the very lowest of classes and the ignorant. Consistent with all prophecy you EXPECT that the Devil will have his ministers in all institutes of religion which are not WORD-CENTERED and powerful enemies of the dogs and wolves which always marked the perverted, musical religionists who would do ANYTHING to keep from working: even in the sacrificial altars the musicians were called PARASITES and the priests who lifted the lamb up to cut its throat was called a HERETIC.

In PART FOUR I will show that the Old and New Testament identifies all of the MONARCHY added to replace God by the "elders" was to "worship the starry host." The Bible, Jewish encyclopedia and all of the evidence proves that it was STAR WORSHIP and included SERPENT WORSHIP. As such it was a COVENANT WITH DEATH and David had too much blood on his hands even to build God a house when "God cannot be worshipped in temples made with human hands.
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Ray
Ray

February 20th, 2009, 7:40 pm #22

Alan's simple challenge that Ken is unable to meet: "I want to be able to open a KJV, that this site promotes as the only reliable translation, and read where Jesus says, "Do not use instrumental music in your worship service." I would also like to read where he says, "You are to have a song, a prayer, three more songs, communion, another song, the sermon, and and invitation song.""

And Ray has also asked one more simple challenge that Ken has not yet answered:

"Is Psalm 57 and Psalm 108 inspired by God?"


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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 20th, 2009, 8:55 pm #23

I found your response interesting. Honestly a bit offensive at times but it's ok no big deal. I think your description of instrumental worship as "emotional masturbation" excessive but nevertheless I can agree with you in some ways. Music, be it secular or in church, can be emotionally manipulative. I find often times in churches I visit that music is idolized. People worry so much about the quality of sound or getting just the right mood that the Holy Spirit gets lost in the shuffle. These, however, are human faults in using music in worship. I believe music is a terrific gift from God and when employed properly with an attitude of humility to God it can be a tremendous blessing to people and Jesus Himself.

That being said I'd like to engage in some friendly dialogue on a few Scriptures. I'm curious to know what your interpretation is.

The first topic is King David and his use of instruments in worship. David himself was described as a man after God's own heart and was also a skilled harp player. "Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him." -1 Samuel 16:22-24

I'm also curious about your thoughts on the 288 Levite musicians David employed for worship. (1 Chronicles 25:1-7)

The third passage is a story from the life of Elisha in which he calls for a musician in order to focus his mind and heart in a worshipful attitude that God honors. "But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the LORD came upon him." -2 Kings 3:15

Finally, I'm wanting to know your interpretation on a text out of Revelation. "And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." -Revelation 5:7-10

To me this verse at most strongly indicates that instrumental worship occurs in heaven and the least John doesn't look poorly upon the use of instruments in worship.

Anyways, hope to hear from you soon...

In His Love,
Stephen
Part FOUR proves that part THREE is fact.

Let me say again: Jesus validates Abraham, Moses and the prophets. ALL of the SPIRITUAL THREAD is prophetic. The priests and Levites were imposed to bear the burden of the Tabernacle and the burden of sacrifices AFTER they fell into musical idolatry.

While modern Jews who are not Semites try to deny it, the Bible itself PROPHESIES, REVEALS AND REPUDIATES the worship under the king, priests and warriors as the ENEMY of God. The worship of the starry host because of musical idolatry was under the Levites who were of that tribe but they were also active in Egyptian religion: Miriam was a prophetess or sorcereress of Hathor. It is clear that operations at the NATIONAL (Goyim, Gentile) temple often profaned the Sabbath (a musical concept) but the SPIRITUAL THREAD knew better:

The Puritan character of the rabbinical Sabbath is shown in the aversion, deducible from some laws, to loud noises (instance Simeon ben Yona's reproof of his mother for loud talking), clapping of hands, striking with a hammer, trumpet-calls, and music ( While to some of the more ascetic rabbis any loud demonstration of joy undoubtedly approached irreverence and impiety, it may be noted that the minor reasons adduced in regard to music (lest musicians might be tempted to make or repair instruments, or the estimate of music as "labor," not "art")

If God turned the Israelites over to worship the starry host (Acts 7 etal) and Chiun was Saturn (identified often as the sun) then who can debate:

Iamblichus, an Sssyrian Neoplatonist Philosopher who determined the role of paganism in the church:

In addition to these things you remark as follows: "So also certain others of these ecstatics become entheast or inspired when they hear cymbals, drums, or some choral chant, 21 as, for example, those who are engaged in the Korybantic Rites, 22

those who are possessed at the Sabazian festival and those who are celebrating the Rites of the Divine Mother." 23 described by the Apostle Paul in the first Epistle to the Corinthians. "If," says he, "the whole assembly come together to the same place and all prattle in tongues, and common men should come in, or unbelievers, will they not say that you are raving?"

Hence he counsels that only two or three should speak in turn, and one interpret; but if nobody present is capable of this, they should keep silence, and speak only to themselves and to God: "for not of tumult is he a god, but of tranquillity." (Ovid; Fasti IV, "The attendants beat the brass, and the hoarse-sounding hides. Cymbals they strike in place of helmets, tambourines for the shields; the pipe yielded its Phrygian notes.")

There is evidently a deeper meaning in all this than is commonly apprehended.


22. The Korybantes are variously described. Their cult was identified or closely allied to that of the Kabeirian divinities, and that of the Great Mother. It was celebrated in the islands of the Aegean Sea and in Phygia. Music, dancing, processions, and ecstatic frenzy were characteristics.

23. Sabazios, Sabaoth, or Sabbat, the god of the Planet Saturn, was better known as Bacchus or Dionysos, and was also styled in Semitic countries, Iao or Yava. His worship was more or less associated and identified with that of the Great Mother, under various designations, and it was characterized by phallephoric processions, dances, mourning for the slain divinity, and the Watch Night. It came from Assyria as its peculiar symbols, the ivy or kissos, the spotted robe or Nimr, and the Thyrso, indicate. The name Zagreus the Kissos and nimr remind us of Kissaia or Asiatic Ethiopia, and the Zagros mountains occupied by the Nimr. Assyria was called "the land of Nimrod." -Amos VIII.


Again, why doubt it because God ABANDONED the national sacrificial system and the 'musicians' who PROPHESIED engaged in the practices defined above.

Thus "Bacchus was directly called upon," he says. The Sabazian worship was Sabbatic; the names Evius, or Hevius, and Luaios are identical with Hivite and Levite. The French name Louis is the Hebrew Levi;

ALL RELIGIOUS OPERATIVES WERE CALLED PARASITES

Parasitus (parasitos, table companion). A word which among the Greeks denoted originally the priest's assistant, who, like the priest, received his support from the offerings made to the temple, in return for certain services. These services included the collection and care of supplies of corn due to the temple, assistance at certain sacrifices, and the preparation of the banquets connected with [p. 1175] certain festivals. The assistants of civil officials, who were maintained at the expense of the State, were also called parasites in many places. The word received another meaning in the Middle and New Greek comedy, where it means the hanger on, who plays the flatterer and buffoon, with a view to getting invited to dinner. The parasite was transferred as a standing character to the Roman imitations of Greek comedy, and figures largely in the plays of Plautus. Good examples of the stage parasite will be found in his Captivi Menaechmi Phormio of Terence.

If God did not command but imposed the work of the Levites BECAUSE of musical idolatry which caused Him to TURN THE OVER to worship the pagan Gods such as Molelch and Chiun (Saturn=666) and the prophets call them robbers and parasites WHY DOUBT that this is the truth.

Plutarch: what god is worshipped by the Jews: When all the company requested and earnestly begged it of him; first of all (says he), the time and manner of the greatest and most holy solemnity of the Jews is exactly agreeable to the holy rites of Bacchus; for that which they call the Fast they celebrate in the midst of the vintage, furnishing their tables with all sorts of fruits while they sit under tabernacles made of vines and ivy; and the day which immediately goes before this they call the day of Tabernacles.

Within a few days after they celebrate another feast, not darkly but openly, dedicated to Bacchus, for they have a feast amongst them called Kradephoria, from carrying palm-trees, and Thyrsophoria, when they enter into the temple carrying thyrsi.

What they do within I know not; but it is very probable that they perform the rites of Bacchus. First they have little trumpets, such as the Grecians used to have at their Bacchanalia to call upon their gods withal.

Others go before them playing upon harps, which they call Levites, whether so named from Lusius or Evius,--either word agrees with Bacchus. And I suppose that their Sabbaths have some relation to Bacchus; for even now many call the Bacchi by the name of Sabbi, and they make use of that word at the celebration of Bacchus's orgies.

And this may be discovered out of Demosthenes and Menander. Nor would it be out of place, were any one to say that the name Sabbath was given to this feast from the agitation and excitement [Greek omitted] which the priests of Bacchus display.

So in the nocturnal ceremonies of Bacchus (as the fashion is amongst us), they make use of music, and call the god's nurses [Greek omitted].
High up on the wall of their temple is a representation of the thyrsus and timbrels, which surely suits no other god than Bacchus.


In day-time you marshalled your gallant throng of bacchanals through the public streets, their heads garlanded with fennel and white poplar; and, as you went, you squeezed the fat-cheeked snakes, or brandished them above your head, now shouting your Euoi Saboi! now footing it to the measure of Hyes Attes! Attes Hyes!--saluted by all the old women with such proud titles as Master of the Ceremonies, Fugleman, Ivy-bearer, Fan-carrier; and at last receiving your recompense of tipsy-cakes, and cracknels, and currant-buns. With such rewards who would not rejoice greatly, and account himself the favorite of fortune?

That is exactly the meaning of David's PRAISE word.


Therefore, when you SEE and HEAR that taking place in the pseudo-church you know that JESUS IS WINNOWING by a baptism of spirit (wind) so He can give the baptism of FIRE.

http://www.piney.com/MuTammuz.html

Ezekiel in chapter 8 identifies this worship in the temple and in chapter 33 identifies what Jesus called "hypocrites" as speakers, singers and instrument players.

The false teachers promoting the use of instrumental music as long as we have a good mental attitude do not grasp that first Israel and then Judah set up the worship used at Mount Sinai which asked God to let them be led like pagans and worship like pagans.

That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor,
.........and turn aside the way of the meek:
.........and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name: Amos 2:7


Profane includes both prostitution and music because they went together in pagan worship:

Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; a prim. root [comp. 2470]; prop. to bore, i. e. (by impl.) to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute): - begin (* men began), defile, * break, defile, * eat (as common things), * first, * gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.

Amos 2:8 And they lay themselves down upon
.........clothes laid to pledge by every altar,
.........and they drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god.

Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near; Amos 6:3
.........That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches,
.........and eat the lambs out of the flock,
.........and the calves out of the midst of the stall; Amos 6:4
That chant [scatter words, i.e. prate] to the sound of the viol,
.........and invent to themselves instruments of musick , like David; Amos 6:5
.........That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments:
.........but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Amos 6:6
Therefore now shall they go captive with the first that go captive,
.........and the banquet of them that stretched themselves shall be removed. Amos 6:7


WHICH ONES OF THAT COULD YOU DO IN THE CHURCH IF YOU WERE SINCERE?

The Mirzach like the Agape was an ancient musical and perverted worship of the dead. In history when you sang the songs of a dead person you worshipped the dead. That is why the direct command to sing (?) "that which is written" because Jesus is not DEAD.

.........Mirzach (h4797) meer-zakh'; from an unused root mean. to scream; a cry, i. e. (of joy), a revel: - banquet.
.........Marzeach (h4798) mar-zay'-akh; formed like 4797; a cry, i. e. (of grief) a lamentation: - mourning.

.........For thus saith the Lord, Enter not into the house of mourning,
......... neither go to lament nor bemoan them:
.........for I have taken away my peace from this people,
............... saith the Lord, even lovingkindness and mercies. Je.16:5


"The marzeah had an extremely long history extending at least from the 14th century B.C. through the Roman period. In the 14th century B.C., it was prominently associated with the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra), on the coast of Syria... The marzeah was a pagan ritual that took the form of a social and religious association... Some scholars regard the funerary marzeah as a feast for--and with--deceased ancestors (or Rephaim, a proper name in the Bible for the inhabitants of Sheol)." (King, Biblical Archaeological Review, Aug, 1988, p. 35, 35)

"These five elements are: (1) reclining or relaxing, (2) eating a meat meal, (3) singing with harp or other musical accompaniment, (4) drinking wine and (5) anointing oneself with oil." (King, p. 37).

"Worship was form more than substance; consequently, conduct in the marketplace was totally unaffected by worship in the holy place. Amos spoke from the conviction that social justice is an integral part of the Mosaic covenant, which regulates relations not only between God and people, but also among people." (King, p. 44).

"In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51).


Adam Clark on Amos

http://www.piney.com/MuClarkAmos.html

I believe that David was not authorized by the Lord to introduce that multitude of musical instruments into the Divine worship of which we read,
and I am satisfied that his conduct in this respect is most solemnly reprehended by this prophet;
and I farther believe that the use of such instruments of music, in the Christian Church,

is without the sanction and against the will of God;
that they are subversive of the spirit of true devotion, and that they are sinful.

If there was a woe to them who invented instruments of music, as did David under the law, is there no woe, no curse to them who invent them, and introduce them into the worship of God in the Christian Church?


This was also the view of the Presbyterians who wrote some of the best information repudiating the use of instruments long before the Restoration Movement.

The Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness was NOT part of the Civil-Priestly-Military complex any more than using the Marine Corp Band at the National Cathedral has anything to do because of SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers,
he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you
.........in meat,
.........or in drink,
.........or in respect of an holyday,
.........or of the new moon,
.........or of the sabbath days:
Col. 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


A shadow is NOT God's old, failed plan of salvation: the Law including the Sabbaths were imposed BECAUSE of transgression to PREVENT people from going to pagan worship services on the Sabbath considered an evil day.

A Shadow is something truly Evil:

G4639 skia skee'-ah Apparently a primary word; shade or a shadow (literally or figuratively
[darkness of error or an adumbration]):--shadow.

Skia
2. reflection, image (in a bowl of oil), Sch.Il.17.755.
3. shade of one dead, phantom, Od.10.495, A.Th.992,
of worthless things, that phantom at Delphi, . mere shadows of .
4. evil spirit, Hippiatr.130, PMasp.188.5
also, of one worn to a shadow, A.Eu.302;


Speaking of the religious ritual condemned by Amos and others we note that:

Of the prophecy of the seed of David: Jesus Christ:

Paul quotes Isaiah 28 when repudiating the "tongues"" and "singing" out of their own spirit in Corinth:

.........We have made a covenant with death, [Marzeah in Amos re wine, women and music]
.........and with hell are we at agreement;
.........when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
.........it shall not come unto us:
.........for we have made lies our refuge,
.........and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Is. 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
.........Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone,
.........a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation:
.........he that believeth shall not make haste.


Make Haste: 2363. chuwsh, koosh; a primitive root; to hurry; figuratively, to be eager with excitement or enjoyment:(make) haste(-n), ready


Paul explained it this way:

Gal. 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;
.........the one from the mount Sinai,
.........which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal. 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia,
.........and answereth to Jerusalem which now is,
.........and is in bondage with her children.


Gal. 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal. 4:27 For it is written,
.........Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry,
.........thou that travailest not: for the desolate
.........hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

John who called the speakers, singers and instrument players sorcerers aqdded:

Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,
.........which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


This COVENANT WITH DEATH is defined by AMOS and is condemned because it imitated what David planned to do for the future temple.

You cannot read Acts without knowing that

God promised David a TENT

But, Solomon built God a HOUSE

But, God is not worshipped in houses built by human hands or by the works of human hands.

In part FIVE I will look at:

I'm also curious about your thoughts on the 288 Levite musicians David employed for worship. (1 Chronicles 25:1-7)
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 21st, 2009, 4:31 am #24

The Bible is a library: that means that it includes all kinds of literature but not all of it is a patternism for the spiritual world. The king, kingdom, temple and clergy were part of the Temple-State which was permitted as punishment when the elders fired God. Jesus is not fond of Scribes and it was the scribes who kept a HISTORICAL record of the civil government. On the other hand, the spiritual people attended synagogue to "rest, read and rehearse" the Word of God: that never changed for one second and no one violated that common knowledge and decency until singing was added as an ACT in 373: this split the church and opened the church up to self-composed songs VIOLATING many direct commands.

This is David's Michtam or engraving or written poem: poems or songs were personal property and one's personal poetry or prayers do not constitute a commanded patternism for others. In that area, private songs were never to be used by others until the composer was dead and they became part of the "catalog."

The view throughout the Old and New Testament is that spiritual truth is delivered onlly through the prophets: Jesus acknowledged Abraham, Moses and the Prophets guided by the Spirit of Christ (1 Pet 1:11 etc.)

Most psalms are "warrior chants" and used by the military to drive the enemy into panic: the spiritual people NEVER ONCE sang congregationally with instrumental accompaniment. Therefore they are NOT inspired as PATTERNS TO BE IMITATED but to be SPOKEN to teach and admonish. We can study Psalm 137 but why do you not use it as authority for a "bashing out the heads of baby" ceremonial legalism? David said that God loved him because he was sinlessly perfect: that is the revealed statement but it is NOT inspired by the Spirit of Christ.

David was the king and would have been killed if he had gone into the Holy Place--as a type of the Body or Church of Christ--with or without his harp.
Psalm 57 is not a Mizmor and therefore not used as a "worship" song and not included in "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" which Paul commanded be SPOKEN.

Psalm 57:1 (To the chief Musician, Al-taschith, Michtam of)
(David, when he fled from Saul in the cave.)


If anyone has to run and hide in a cave then I see no reason not to take along all of the instruments you wish: David was not a worship leader that the APPROVED PATTERNISM would be to, like David always, play the instruments in private and not during the "school of the Bible" where the Spirit of Christ outlawed it for the synagogue.

BE merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea,
........in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge,
........until these calamities be overpast.
Psalm 57:2 I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me.
Psalm 57:3 He shall send from heaven, and save me from the reproach of him that would swallow me up. Selah.
........God shall send forth his mercy and his truth.


Scholars have noted that Selah is a pause: no one sang and played at the same time. One would recite a verse and then "signal a pause for meditation."

Psalm 57:4 My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire,
........even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword

Psalm 57:5 Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens; let thy glory be above all the earth.
Psalm 57:6 They have prepared a net for my steps; my soul is bowed down:
........they have digged a pit before me,
........into the midst whereof they are fallen themselves. Selah.
Psalm 57:7 My heart is fixed, O God, my heart is fixed: I will sing and give praise.
Psalm 57:8 Awake up, my glory; awake, psaltery and harp: I myself will awake early. [I will awaken the Dawn}


We might doubt that David had a literal psaltery and harp with him: if so:

"The name of psaltery entered Christian literature in the 3rd century B.C. translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint where, in the Psalms, nebel was translated psalterion. Thus, Nebuchadnezzar's idolatrous ensemble included the Aramic psantria. Notice, also, that the book of Psalms has also become known as the Psalter (or psalterium), from the hymns sung with this harp.

Nebel (h5035) neh'-bel; or nebel nay'-bel; from 5034; a skin- bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form): - bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol

Nabel (h5034) naw-bale'; a prim. root; to wilt; gen. to fall away, fail, faint; fig. to be foolish or (mor.) wicked; causat. to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, * surely, make vile, wither..


In many of the ancient documents from Babylon and other nations, the gods were believed to be inside of musical instruments which were made into the form of a bull (harp). The sounds of the strings was sold to be the voice of the god inside of the idols which even had "speaking tubes" so the manipulator could "discover" the needs of the worshipper and have the idol speak the answer to them (This was before radio).

However, Habakkuk pronounced:

Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. Habakkuk 2:19

But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. Habakkuk 2:20

All pagans believed that a musical instrument WAS a god or was the HOME of a god: that is why Africans baptize their drums and the Catholics baptize their organs and bells.


John Hyrcannus SILENCED all of thes awakening Psalms as pagan.

We even have a mention at a later date of a similar custom in connection with the cult in Jerusalem, where certain Levites, called me'oreim, 'AROUSERS,' sang (every morning?) this verse from-"Ps 44:23: "Awake, O Lord! Why do you sleep? Rouse yourself! Do not reject us forever." The Talmud tells us that John Hyrcanus suppressed the practice because it recalled too readily a pagan custom." (Roland de Vaux, p. 247).

Because David as king was part of a cursed monarchy abandoned to worship the starry host then no one should ever fall into the trap that David was God's approved PATTERNISM for the MUSIC which was a MARK of that Sabazianism or worship of the Sun, Moon and planets as "wandering stars." Apollo was the SUN god and is Abaddon or Apollyon and the musicians (muses) in Revelation 18 are called sorcerers: so too is the prophesying under the Levites.

Pindar, Neaman Ode. Pi.N.9.50 9.[1 Pindar 9:[1] Muses, we will go in victory procession from Apollo's shrine in Sicyon to newly-founded Aetna, where the doors flung open wide are overwhelmed by guests, at the prosperous home of Chromius. Make a sweet song of verses! For, mounting his chariot of victorious horses, he gives the word to sing for the mother and her twin children [5] who jointly watch over steep Pytho. [6] There is a saying among men: a noble deed when it is accomplished should not be buried silently in the ground; and divine song is suited to boasting. But we will wake the shouting lyre and the flute in honor of the very pinnacle of horse-contests, which Adrastus established for Phoebus [Apollo, Apollyon] by the streams of the Asopus.

Psalms Delitzsch
Moreover, we must take into consideration the facts that the compass of the tenor extends even into the soprano, that the singers were of different ages down to twenty years of age, and that Oriental, and more particularly even Jewish, song is fond of falsetto singing


The psaltery also was an instrument
The PATTERNISM of the sacrificial musicians called parasites was OUTSIDE of the holy places and in the slaughter pen. That would be an approved example to put the musicians OUT of the Holy Place (church) and make them perform in the parking Lot.

Psalm 57 is David on the rune and hiding out in a cave: that would be a NECESSARY INFERENCE if you use this as a pettern.

Wouldn't it be better if true evangelists spent more time just studying these proof texts?
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Stephen
Stephen

February 21st, 2009, 4:00 pm #25

Part FOUR proves that part THREE is fact.

Let me say again: Jesus validates Abraham, Moses and the prophets. ALL of the SPIRITUAL THREAD is prophetic. The priests and Levites were imposed to bear the burden of the Tabernacle and the burden of sacrifices AFTER they fell into musical idolatry.

While modern Jews who are not Semites try to deny it, the Bible itself PROPHESIES, REVEALS AND REPUDIATES the worship under the king, priests and warriors as the ENEMY of God. The worship of the starry host because of musical idolatry was under the Levites who were of that tribe but they were also active in Egyptian religion: Miriam was a prophetess or sorcereress of Hathor. It is clear that operations at the NATIONAL (Goyim, Gentile) temple often profaned the Sabbath (a musical concept) but the SPIRITUAL THREAD knew better:

The Puritan character of the rabbinical Sabbath is shown in the aversion, deducible from some laws, to loud noises (instance Simeon ben Yona's reproof of his mother for loud talking), clapping of hands, striking with a hammer, trumpet-calls, and music ( While to some of the more ascetic rabbis any loud demonstration of joy undoubtedly approached irreverence and impiety, it may be noted that the minor reasons adduced in regard to music (lest musicians might be tempted to make or repair instruments, or the estimate of music as "labor," not "art")

If God turned the Israelites over to worship the starry host (Acts 7 etal) and Chiun was Saturn (identified often as the sun) then who can debate:

Iamblichus, an Sssyrian Neoplatonist Philosopher who determined the role of paganism in the church:

In addition to these things you remark as follows: "So also certain others of these ecstatics become entheast or inspired when they hear cymbals, drums, or some choral chant, 21 as, for example, those who are engaged in the Korybantic Rites, 22

those who are possessed at the Sabazian festival and those who are celebrating the Rites of the Divine Mother." 23 described by the Apostle Paul in the first Epistle to the Corinthians. "If," says he, "the whole assembly come together to the same place and all prattle in tongues, and common men should come in, or unbelievers, will they not say that you are raving?"

Hence he counsels that only two or three should speak in turn, and one interpret; but if nobody present is capable of this, they should keep silence, and speak only to themselves and to God: "for not of tumult is he a god, but of tranquillity." (Ovid; Fasti IV, "The attendants beat the brass, and the hoarse-sounding hides. Cymbals they strike in place of helmets, tambourines for the shields; the pipe yielded its Phrygian notes.")

There is evidently a deeper meaning in all this than is commonly apprehended.


22. The Korybantes are variously described. Their cult was identified or closely allied to that of the Kabeirian divinities, and that of the Great Mother. It was celebrated in the islands of the Aegean Sea and in Phygia. Music, dancing, processions, and ecstatic frenzy were characteristics.

23. Sabazios, Sabaoth, or Sabbat, the god of the Planet Saturn, was better known as Bacchus or Dionysos, and was also styled in Semitic countries, Iao or Yava. His worship was more or less associated and identified with that of the Great Mother, under various designations, and it was characterized by phallephoric processions, dances, mourning for the slain divinity, and the Watch Night. It came from Assyria as its peculiar symbols, the ivy or kissos, the spotted robe or Nimr, and the Thyrso, indicate. The name Zagreus the Kissos and nimr remind us of Kissaia or Asiatic Ethiopia, and the Zagros mountains occupied by the Nimr. Assyria was called "the land of Nimrod." -Amos VIII.


Again, why doubt it because God ABANDONED the national sacrificial system and the 'musicians' who PROPHESIED engaged in the practices defined above.

Thus "Bacchus was directly called upon," he says. The Sabazian worship was Sabbatic; the names Evius, or Hevius, and Luaios are identical with Hivite and Levite. The French name Louis is the Hebrew Levi;

ALL RELIGIOUS OPERATIVES WERE CALLED PARASITES

Parasitus (parasitos, table companion). A word which among the Greeks denoted originally the priest's assistant, who, like the priest, received his support from the offerings made to the temple, in return for certain services. These services included the collection and care of supplies of corn due to the temple, assistance at certain sacrifices, and the preparation of the banquets connected with [p. 1175] certain festivals. The assistants of civil officials, who were maintained at the expense of the State, were also called parasites in many places. The word received another meaning in the Middle and New Greek comedy, where it means the hanger on, who plays the flatterer and buffoon, with a view to getting invited to dinner. The parasite was transferred as a standing character to the Roman imitations of Greek comedy, and figures largely in the plays of Plautus. Good examples of the stage parasite will be found in his Captivi Menaechmi Phormio of Terence.

If God did not command but imposed the work of the Levites BECAUSE of musical idolatry which caused Him to TURN THE OVER to worship the pagan Gods such as Molelch and Chiun (Saturn=666) and the prophets call them robbers and parasites WHY DOUBT that this is the truth.

Plutarch: what god is worshipped by the Jews: When all the company requested and earnestly begged it of him; first of all (says he), the time and manner of the greatest and most holy solemnity of the Jews is exactly agreeable to the holy rites of Bacchus; for that which they call the Fast they celebrate in the midst of the vintage, furnishing their tables with all sorts of fruits while they sit under tabernacles made of vines and ivy; and the day which immediately goes before this they call the day of Tabernacles.

Within a few days after they celebrate another feast, not darkly but openly, dedicated to Bacchus, for they have a feast amongst them called Kradephoria, from carrying palm-trees, and Thyrsophoria, when they enter into the temple carrying thyrsi.

What they do within I know not; but it is very probable that they perform the rites of Bacchus. First they have little trumpets, such as the Grecians used to have at their Bacchanalia to call upon their gods withal.

Others go before them playing upon harps, which they call Levites, whether so named from Lusius or Evius,--either word agrees with Bacchus. And I suppose that their Sabbaths have some relation to Bacchus; for even now many call the Bacchi by the name of Sabbi, and they make use of that word at the celebration of Bacchus's orgies.

And this may be discovered out of Demosthenes and Menander. Nor would it be out of place, were any one to say that the name Sabbath was given to this feast from the agitation and excitement [Greek omitted] which the priests of Bacchus display.

So in the nocturnal ceremonies of Bacchus (as the fashion is amongst us), they make use of music, and call the god's nurses [Greek omitted].
High up on the wall of their temple is a representation of the thyrsus and timbrels, which surely suits no other god than Bacchus.


In day-time you marshalled your gallant throng of bacchanals through the public streets, their heads garlanded with fennel and white poplar; and, as you went, you squeezed the fat-cheeked snakes, or brandished them above your head, now shouting your Euoi Saboi! now footing it to the measure of Hyes Attes! Attes Hyes!--saluted by all the old women with such proud titles as Master of the Ceremonies, Fugleman, Ivy-bearer, Fan-carrier; and at last receiving your recompense of tipsy-cakes, and cracknels, and currant-buns. With such rewards who would not rejoice greatly, and account himself the favorite of fortune?

That is exactly the meaning of David's PRAISE word.


Therefore, when you SEE and HEAR that taking place in the pseudo-church you know that JESUS IS WINNOWING by a baptism of spirit (wind) so He can give the baptism of FIRE.

http://www.piney.com/MuTammuz.html

Ezekiel in chapter 8 identifies this worship in the temple and in chapter 33 identifies what Jesus called "hypocrites" as speakers, singers and instrument players.

The false teachers promoting the use of instrumental music as long as we have a good mental attitude do not grasp that first Israel and then Judah set up the worship used at Mount Sinai which asked God to let them be led like pagans and worship like pagans.

That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor,
.........and turn aside the way of the meek:
.........and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name: Amos 2:7


Profane includes both prostitution and music because they went together in pagan worship:

Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; a prim. root [comp. 2470]; prop. to bore, i. e. (by impl.) to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute): - begin (* men began), defile, * break, defile, * eat (as common things), * first, * gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.

Amos 2:8 And they lay themselves down upon
.........clothes laid to pledge by every altar,
.........and they drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god.

Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near; Amos 6:3
.........That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches,
.........and eat the lambs out of the flock,
.........and the calves out of the midst of the stall; Amos 6:4
That chant [scatter words, i.e. prate] to the sound of the viol,
.........and invent to themselves instruments of musick , like David; Amos 6:5
.........That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments:
.........but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Amos 6:6
Therefore now shall they go captive with the first that go captive,
.........and the banquet of them that stretched themselves shall be removed. Amos 6:7


WHICH ONES OF THAT COULD YOU DO IN THE CHURCH IF YOU WERE SINCERE?

The Mirzach like the Agape was an ancient musical and perverted worship of the dead. In history when you sang the songs of a dead person you worshipped the dead. That is why the direct command to sing (?) "that which is written" because Jesus is not DEAD.

.........Mirzach (h4797) meer-zakh'; from an unused root mean. to scream; a cry, i. e. (of joy), a revel: - banquet.
.........Marzeach (h4798) mar-zay'-akh; formed like 4797; a cry, i. e. (of grief) a lamentation: - mourning.

.........For thus saith the Lord, Enter not into the house of mourning,
......... neither go to lament nor bemoan them:
.........for I have taken away my peace from this people,
............... saith the Lord, even lovingkindness and mercies. Je.16:5


"The marzeah had an extremely long history extending at least from the 14th century B.C. through the Roman period. In the 14th century B.C., it was prominently associated with the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra), on the coast of Syria... The marzeah was a pagan ritual that took the form of a social and religious association... Some scholars regard the funerary marzeah as a feast for--and with--deceased ancestors (or Rephaim, a proper name in the Bible for the inhabitants of Sheol)." (King, Biblical Archaeological Review, Aug, 1988, p. 35, 35)

"These five elements are: (1) reclining or relaxing, (2) eating a meat meal, (3) singing with harp or other musical accompaniment, (4) drinking wine and (5) anointing oneself with oil." (King, p. 37).

"Worship was form more than substance; consequently, conduct in the marketplace was totally unaffected by worship in the holy place. Amos spoke from the conviction that social justice is an integral part of the Mosaic covenant, which regulates relations not only between God and people, but also among people." (King, p. 44).

"In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51).


Adam Clark on Amos

http://www.piney.com/MuClarkAmos.html

I believe that David was not authorized by the Lord to introduce that multitude of musical instruments into the Divine worship of which we read,
and I am satisfied that his conduct in this respect is most solemnly reprehended by this prophet;
and I farther believe that the use of such instruments of music, in the Christian Church,

is without the sanction and against the will of God;
that they are subversive of the spirit of true devotion, and that they are sinful.

If there was a woe to them who invented instruments of music, as did David under the law, is there no woe, no curse to them who invent them, and introduce them into the worship of God in the Christian Church?


This was also the view of the Presbyterians who wrote some of the best information repudiating the use of instruments long before the Restoration Movement.

The Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness was NOT part of the Civil-Priestly-Military complex any more than using the Marine Corp Band at the National Cathedral has anything to do because of SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers,
he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you
.........in meat,
.........or in drink,
.........or in respect of an holyday,
.........or of the new moon,
.........or of the sabbath days:
Col. 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


A shadow is NOT God's old, failed plan of salvation: the Law including the Sabbaths were imposed BECAUSE of transgression to PREVENT people from going to pagan worship services on the Sabbath considered an evil day.

A Shadow is something truly Evil:

G4639 skia skee'-ah Apparently a primary word; shade or a shadow (literally or figuratively
[darkness of error or an adumbration]):--shadow.

Skia
2. reflection, image (in a bowl of oil), Sch.Il.17.755.
3. shade of one dead, phantom, Od.10.495, A.Th.992,
of worthless things, that phantom at Delphi, . mere shadows of .
4. evil spirit, Hippiatr.130, PMasp.188.5
also, of one worn to a shadow, A.Eu.302;


Speaking of the religious ritual condemned by Amos and others we note that:

Of the prophecy of the seed of David: Jesus Christ:

Paul quotes Isaiah 28 when repudiating the "tongues"" and "singing" out of their own spirit in Corinth:

.........We have made a covenant with death, [Marzeah in Amos re wine, women and music]
.........and with hell are we at agreement;
.........when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
.........it shall not come unto us:
.........for we have made lies our refuge,
.........and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Is. 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
.........Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone,
.........a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation:
.........he that believeth shall not make haste.


Make Haste: 2363. chuwsh, koosh; a primitive root; to hurry; figuratively, to be eager with excitement or enjoyment:(make) haste(-n), ready


Paul explained it this way:

Gal. 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;
.........the one from the mount Sinai,
.........which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal. 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia,
.........and answereth to Jerusalem which now is,
.........and is in bondage with her children.


Gal. 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal. 4:27 For it is written,
.........Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry,
.........thou that travailest not: for the desolate
.........hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

John who called the speakers, singers and instrument players sorcerers aqdded:

Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,
.........which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


This COVENANT WITH DEATH is defined by AMOS and is condemned because it imitated what David planned to do for the future temple.

You cannot read Acts without knowing that

God promised David a TENT

But, Solomon built God a HOUSE

But, God is not worshipped in houses built by human hands or by the works of human hands.

In part FIVE I will look at:

I'm also curious about your thoughts on the 288 Levite musicians David employed for worship. (1 Chronicles 25:1-7)
The only fact is there should never be but one Part of any topic of conversation where Ken is concerned. Why? Because any one who reads it is already in a Coma by the end of Part one! Wow! I now know where the term MUMBOJUMBO found its origin! The Bible is not that complicated, God is not that hard to know, and Christ's message is not so confusing! I think that Ken falls into the failing trend of conservative mindsets that to be right I must appear, APPEAR, to have a better understanding than anyone else. Which in turn he makes what he talks about simply to crazy and to difficult to grasp. If someone can't figure it out then it must be right! How do I know this? Because I was Ken growing up when I just spewed out whatever the pulpit preacher told me was right. Thank goodness I found out how to read the Bible with an open mind and more importantly an open heart. I really felt the grace of God come into my life and felt real love.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 21st, 2009, 11:28 pm #26

Alan wrote: Since Donnie and Joe know so much more regarding the doctrine of Christ than anyone else, I was just wondering if they could tell exactly what verses that Jesus spoke in regards to not having instrumental music.

Please be specific. I want to be able to open a KJV, that this site promotes as the only reliable translation, and read where Jesus says, "Do not use instrumental music in your worship service." I would also like to read where he says, "You are to have a song, a prayer, three more songs, communion, another song, the sermon, and and invitation song."

This site is just so knowledgable, I know you can find it.

Until then.....


Alan, it is time to recycle some BASICS as in summer training camp: lets begin: "THIS is a baseball." It is well documented in the Bible and especially the Greek literature that people use music as SORCERY and so says John in Revelation 18). The only LEGALISM word I can find is the Greek NOMOS: that speaks of HUMAN MADE laws which are made to CHARM or enchant the citizens into submission so that no one will dare question the LAW MAKERS. If you say that THERE IS NOTHING repudiating instruments in the Bible and nothing commanding them then it is CERTAIN that the very late use of music in the "church" is a NOMOS which usually applied to Apollo (Abaddon, Apollon" and his MUSES (Rev 18) who were dirty adulteresses.

Maybe if you grasped that it was the Spirit of Christ who commanded the Holy Convocation for the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness. It was INCLUSIVE of Rest, reading and rehearsing the Word. They were restricted to their own precincts to prevent them from attending the Seventh day paganism which originated in Babylon along with the tithe. It was EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing. That command was never rescinded and never violated by the SPIRITUAL THREAD off Israel who were QUARANTINED from the sacrificial or exorcism noise (never music) when they warriors "made the lambs dumb before the slaughter.

I need to begin there, but here is a bit of information and REMEMBER that when you say that Jesus didn't CONDEMN the use of instruments you are gambling your soul on people who cannot DEFINE words. You have the duty to define words before you DELIBERATELY sow discord and offend many. If you cannot FIND the clear evidence then I submit that you have not yet become a disciple with A holy spirit or A good conscience, consciousness or a co-perception of the Word

You will remember that Jesus spoke to the false Jews in parables by which truth had been hidden from the foundation of the world. The easiest way to hide the truth in plain sight is to "translate" the Bible "using different words for a pleasing variety" even says the KJV people. This makes it easy to further pervert or corrupt the word meaning "selling learning at retail" by defining words and context to make it POWERFUL in trying to manipulate people's minds: this is called witchcraft or sorcery by John speaking of speakers, singers and instrument players who refuse to "sing that which is written" with one mind and one mouth and to "teach that which has been taught." It is a plot by God who needs no wimpy burgers.

John refused to baptize the dominant clergy class and called them a generation or RACE of vipers. During the curse of the sacrificial system the "instruments" of the warrior classes bearing Canaanite guild names were sounded (not music) during the burning of the GOATS which were sacrificed to prevent sacrificing TO THE GOATS defined in Greek as the CAPELLA from which we get the sad tragedy songs by the a capellas.

Peter told the people to SAVE YOURSELVES from this CROOKED RACE. Crooked is opposite to the orthodox: MYTHS always written by poets and musicians who could never write truth.

Skolios A. curved, bent (opposite to orthos, euthus) muthos
III. skolion, to, intestine, splanchana kai nephron kai skolion

Muthos used with tragoidia, mimesis, poetes etc. Latin fabula II. In partic. (freq. and class.), a fictitious narrative, a tale, story; 1. Most freq., a dramatic poem, drama, play; tragôidia, mimêsis, poiêtês, ; muthoisin skoliois Hes.Op.194
2. fiction (opposite logos, historic truth), Pi.O.1.29 (pl.), N.7.23 (pl.), Pl.Phd.61b, Prt.320c, 324d, etc.


Don't miss the point that the VIPER GENERATION from Cain (meaning a musical note) murdered Seth:

Matt 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Matt 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Matt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matt 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you
........prophets, and wise men, and scribes:
........and some of them ye shall kill and crucify;
........and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues,
........and persecute them from city to city:
Matt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,
........from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias,
........whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.


Because Jesus warned about parables from the foundation of the world, don't miss the point that the Bible is the history of the Hebrew people and that they existed at the time of Cain: cain is said to be OF that wicked one and Eve was wholly seduced in a sexual sense enabled by music. More later.

Rev. 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

they claim they are Jews #2453 Ioudas - Judas; in Hebrew 3063 - Yehudah - a descendant of Judah. The paid their way into the Herodian ruling class. The Saducean priesthood during the first century were not of Aaron but consisted of four families: Boethus, Hanan, Kimchit, and Phiabi. They intermarried with the Herodians, the Royal Rulers of the State of Israel, who were, themselves Edomites (Idumeans) from the Petra region (or Edom) and descendants of Esau (or Seir, which means "shaggy, he-goat, devil"), thus the "synagogue of Satan" leaders claimed to be Jews but were Edomites appointed by the Herodian rulers under Rome; Herod Antipas, for instance, and Pontius Pilate held the same governmental position for Rome, the reason for much rivalry between them); since Esau was "red and hairy" his nickname was Edom, and he lived in Seir where Ham's descendants settled.


As such they "wore the hat of Hermes" from which the musical discorders get the new hermeneutic. You might want to see how this was music and sex as the abomination of desolation" in the Jerusalem temple: some were still active and tried to seduce Jesus shown when He called the MEN of that generation like CHILDREN which identified the "youth ministers" or chorus leaders used and abused: He consigned the pipers, singers and dancers to the marketplace where all pagan and perverted worship took place.

http://www.piney.com/2Macc.html

So we might circle back to the beginning in Genesis where the meaning of SERPENT is "a musical enchanter(ess)." The king/queen of Tyre used music to steal property and the "souls of men" and is called the "singing and harp playing prostitute." Now, only a legalist would look for a LAW OF SILENCE (invented by the musical group) which says "thou shalt not play the musical prostitute." Stinkty or slithering animals are symbols of the enemies of the Words of God.

The serpent is related to brass and the flute which is lumped with pollute and prostitute as the meaning of when "men began to CALL upon the name of the Lord."

Gen. 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth:
........For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Gen. 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos:
........then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

582. enowsh, en-oshe´; from 605; properly, a mortal (and thus differing from the more dignified 120); hence, a man in general (singly or collectively):--another, x (blood-)thirsty, certain, chap(-man); divers, fellow, x in the flower of their age, husband, (certain, mortal) man, people, person, servant, some (x of them), + stranger, those, + their trade. It is often unexpressed in the English versions, especially when used in apposition with another word . Compare 376.

605. Anash, aw-nash´; a primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy:--desperate(-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful.


It was in this "generation" that false worship began. We know that Jubal "handled" musical instruments meaning "without authority.." When men FALL from grace it is always caused or MARKED by the use of music. What better supernatural sign of false prophets? The meaning of "began to call upon the name of the Lord" was how the Israelites--given The Book of The covenant of grace, ROSE up to play in musical idolatry. This was PROFANING the sabbath which was REST FROM the pagan seventh day worship rituals marked by music to ENCHANT or TRANQUALIZE the common fodder. This word is h2490 identical to David's "praise" word which means to MAKE SELF VILE which is the root word for LUCIFER the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden.
"
This word is used of "Lucifer being cast as profane out of Heaven" and the equivalent word when Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG.

This word is used interchangeably as a "melody" word and normally marked women or male prostitute who prowled around all pagan-like temples of which that in Jerusalem was identified when God "turned them over to worship the starry host."

5059. nagan, naw-gan´; a primitive root; properly, to thrum, i.e. beat a tune with the fingers; expec. to play on a stringed instrument; hence (generally), to make music:--player on instruments, sing to the stringed instruments, melody, ministrel, play(-er, -ing).

Which points to the TOUCH word used by Eve when she was seduced or enchanted by the "serpent" as the name of the Assyrian Enchanter called "the tallest tree in Eden" of which she was seduced but Adam "ate" from the midst willingly.

5060. naga, naw-gah´; a primitive root; properly, to touch, i.e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem., to lie with a woman); by implication, to reach (figuratively, to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.):--beat, (x be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch.

Adam Clark:
Verse 26. Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.] The marginal reading is, Then began men to call themselves by the name of the Lord; which words are supposed to signify that in the time of Enos the true followers of God began to distinguish themselves, and to be distinguished by others, by the appellation of sons of God; those of the other branch of Adam's family, among whom the Divine worship was not observed, being distinguished by the name, children of men. It must not be dissembled that many eminent men have contended that ljwh huchal, which we translate began, should be rendered began profanely, or then profanation began, and from this time they date the origin of idolatry. Most of the Jewish doctors were of this opinion, and Maimonides has discussed it at some length in his Treatise on Idolatry; as this piece is curious, and gives the most probable account of the origin and progress of idolatry, I shall insert it here.


You will remember the false conclusions: Because God created musical Instruments (Bible says Satan did) it is right and proper for us to use ANYTHING that God created in our worship to him. The problem is that you worship the CREATURE and not the CREATOR. Now, see how the earliest recorded commentary uses the same imagination even when "the imagination of the human hear is only evil continually."

"In the days of Enos the sons of Adam erred with great error, and the counsel of the wise men of that age became brutish, and Enos himself was (one) of them that erred; and their error was this:
........they said, Forasmuch as God hath created these stars and spheres
........to govern the world, and set them on high, and imparted honour unto them,
........and they are ministers that minister before him;
........it is meet that men should laud, and glorify, and give them honour.
For this is the will of God, that we magnify and honour whomsoever he magnifieth and honouret; even as a king would have them honoured that stand before him, and this is the honour of the king himself. When this thing was come up into their hearts they began to build temples unto the stars, and to offer sacrifice unto them, and to laud and glorify them with words, and to worship before them, that they might in their evil opinion obtain favour of the Creator; and this was the root of idolatry, &c.

And in process of time there stood up false prophets among the sons of Adam, which said that God had commanded and said unto them, Worship such a star, or all the stars, and do sacrifice unto them thus and thus; and build a temple for it, and make an image of it, that all the people, women, and children may worship it.
........And the false prophet showed them the image
........which he had feigned out of his own heart,
........and said it was the image of such a star,
........which was made known unto him by prophecy.
And they began after this manner to make images in temples, and under trees, and on tops of mountains and hills, and assembled together and worshipped them, &c. And this thing was spread through all the world, to serve images with services different one from another, and to sacrifice unto and worship them.
........So, in process of time, the glorious and fearful name (of God)
........was forgotten out of the mouth of all living,
........and out of their knowledge, and they acknowledged him not.
And there was found no people on the earth that knew aught, save images of wood and stone, and temples of stone, which they had been trained up from their childhood to worship and serve, and to swear by their names. And the wise men that were among them, as the priests and such like, thought there was no God save the stars and spheres, for whose sake and in whose likeness they had made these images; but as for the Rock everlasting,
there was no man that acknowledged him or knew him save a few persons in the world, as Enoch, Methuselah, Noah, Sham, and Heber. And in this way did the world walk and converse till that pillar of the world, Abraham our father, was born." Maim. in Mishn, and Ainsworth in loco.


Moses was writing an inverted version of the Babylon legends used as worship where God had sentenced Israel because of musical idolatry. In the end time worship (now) the same enchanters are used by the Babylon mother of harlot: they are the same lusted after "fruits" spoken of by Amos and as speakers, singers and instrument players they are called SORCERERS. The sound of the millstone was always the way to find the GRINDERS who spread their legs and the "piping sounds" made by the grinding advertised their second occupation.

I will follow up quickly.
The question about Psalm 57 and the AWAKENING discussion continues: For readers I wil say again that the EVIL THREAD which included king, kingdom, animal slaughter with the Levites from Levius or Dionysus and exorcism music is recorded "for our learning but not for out patternism" by the Scribes. On the other hand, the Spirit of Christ speaks to the SPIRITUAL THREAD through the prophets who repudiate the musical world and use words which define the Babylonian or national worship TO WHICH God had abandoned them even in Egypt.

THOSE WHO KNEW THE PROPHETS WERE READY TO BE BAPTIZED: The Spirit of Christ identified the Word as FREE and defined the true REST as excluding doing our own pleasures or even speaking our own words: in the prophets and in person Jesus MARKED the slick speakers, singers and instrument players as HYPOCRITES. Therefore, the teaching of Christ in the prophets is still commanded by Peter as that which we should pay attention to until the "Day star rises in our heart" or until that which is perfect sinks through.

Therefore, when people pull up the proof texts as authority for the school of the Bible even when it is clearly defines as EXORCISM in all sacrificial systems and performed by those they called PARASITES, we know that exposing them to the CONTEXT will be like shining a bright light into Dracula's coffin. Nevertheless, we are called to witness and NOT to convert which all of the evidence proves will be impossible.

Jeremiah speaking for Christ writes:

Jer. 2:8 The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not:
........the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.
Jer. 7:9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal,
........and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
Jer. 7:10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name,
........and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?
Jer. 8:4 Moreover thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD;
........Shall they fall, and not arise? shall he turn away, and not return?
Jer. 8:5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding?
........they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.
Jer. 8:6 I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness,
........saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.
Jer. 8:7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times;
........and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.
Jer. 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is WITH US?
........LO, CERTAINLY IN VAIN MADE HE IT;
........THE PEN OF THE SCRIBES IS in vain.


HERE DEFINES THE PREACHERS WHO LIE ABOUT ALL OF THE MUSIC PASSAGES.

8267. sheqer, sheh-ker; from 8266; an untruth; by implication, a sham (often adverbial): without a cause, deceit(-ful), false(-hood, -ly), feignedly, liar, + lie, lying, vain (thing), wrongfully.

8266. shaqar, shaw-kar´; a primitive root; to cheat, i.e. be untrue (usually in words):fail, deal falsely, lie.


JESUS HAD LOTS OF NASTY WORDS FOR THE SCRIBES

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall
........exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees,
........ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matt. 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed
........unto the chief priests and unto the scribes,
........and they shall condemn him to death,
Matt. 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock [musically], and to scourge, and to crucify him:
........and the third day he shall rise again.


Prospaizo jest or sport (clap) make fun of, II. c. acc., theous p. sing to the gods, sing in their praise or honour

Matt. 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
........for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves,
........neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matt. 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
........for ye devour widows houses, and for a pretence make long prayer:
................ therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Matt. 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes:
........and some of them ye shall kill and crucify;
........and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues,
........and persecute them from city to city:
Matt. 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,
........from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias,
........whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.


WHO ARE THE HYPOCRITES

Hypokrites (g5273) hoop-ok-ree-tace'; from 5271; an actor under an assumed character (stage-player), i.e. (fig.) a dissembler ("hypocrite"): - hypocrite.

Hupokrino reply, make answer, of an oracle, 2. expound, interpret, explain [Peter outlawed this as private interpretation.] 2. deliver a speech, declaim, of orators and rhetoricians, represent dramatically, erotikon dramaton 3. of an orator, use histrionic arts, exaggerate, ape, mimic, Mania or religious frenzy.

Rhetor-ikos , on, oratorical, he rhetorike (sc. techne). These are the craftsmen lumped with the singers, musicians and "grinder" doing merchandise in the house of prayer. Rev. 18:22

LATIN: canto I. Neutr., to produce melodious sounds (by the voice or an instrument), to sound, sing, play (class. in prose and poetry; to sing and play while the actor accompanies the song with gestures or dancing, C. Transf., of instruments, to sound, resound: 2. Of the singing pronunciation of an orator, to declaim in a singing tone, to sing. Of the cock crowing of the Galli. A.Prophetic or oracular song, B. An incantation, charm, magic song, etc.: cantusque artesque magorum.


BACK TO JEREMIAH speaking of the wise who are ashamed.

Jer. 8:9 The wise MEN ARE ASHAMED, THEY ARE DISMAYED AND TAKEN: LO, THEY HAVE REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD; and what wisdom is in them?

Jer. 8:10 Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.

Jer. 8:11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

Jer. 8:12 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.


The WISE to be EXCLUDED in 1 Corinthians 1 along with the podiums and "collectors of shekels" or Canaanites from the Church, are the sophists who by definition use "music" to make themseleves SEEM to be wise but the spiritual see the mark of the beast--gender confused.

The inspired for the CARNAL thread means that the accounts of the SCRIBES are preserved for us to see the evil taking place in modern churches overgrown with HYPOCRITES meaning anyone who performs as a rhetorician, singer or musician John identifies as SORCERERS. Furthermore, he says they are lusted after FRUITS as ministers of the BABYLON MOTHER OF HARLOTS. Today, she is named ZOE.

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA WHOM THE FALSE PREACHERS LIE ABOUT

http://www.piney.com/ChFathClPed3.html

"There are hints that Pan was also linked closely to the Mother Goddess (Zoe, Eve, Sophia), and perhaps was even one of her male consorts at one time, and linked with her as overlord of nature and Lord of the Beasts.

Pindar mentions Pan as: "O blessed one, whom the Olympians call dog (catamite) of the Great Mother, taking every form"

"There are references to Pan as 'the dog of Cybele' the great nature-goddess of the Greeks, as being always in attendance on her, being himself a nature-god. The fact that Pindar calls Pan 'dog' is taken as a glorification of that animal.

"The story remains in old legends [700] that Pan, the keeper of wild beasts, breathing sweet-voiced music on his well-joined pipes, once brought from its tender mother on Argive hills a lamb with beautiful golden fleece. A herald stood on the stone platform and cried aloud,

"To assembly, Mycenaeans, go to assembly to see the omens given to our blessed rulers." . . . and they honored the house of Atreus. "


Sophocles Electra: The Athenians believed that wine could be offered to Pan, but not to the Nymphs (unless he was present too). Is this an indication of what was to come
........where Dionysus took over the role of Wine-God,
........and included Bacchus (as well as Pan) in his retinue?
"Menander says that Pan was NOT a God that was approached in worship in silence.
........His love of music and dance, dictated that his worship include those elements,
........including clapping,
........and the sound of cymbals.
Individual offerings found have included vases, oil lamps (at the cave at Vari in Attica), golden grasshoppers
........and reliefs - one of which at least shows Pan
........outside a cave in front of his worshipers,
........playing the Syrinx, and accompanied by Hermes,
........three Nymphs and the river Achelous.


Musical Ministers get revealed when they let their himation drag.

It is EXACTLY a COMA God puts you into as a strong delusion when you refused to be a student of the Word .
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Ray
Ray

February 22nd, 2009, 7:44 pm #27

Alan's simple challenge that Ken is unable to meet: "I want to be able to open a KJV, that this site promotes as the only reliable translation, and read where Jesus says, "Do not use instrumental music in your worship service." I would also like to read where he says, "You are to have a song, a prayer, three more songs, communion, another song, the sermon, and and invitation song.""

And Ray has also asked one more simple challenge that Ken has not yet answered:

"Is Psalm 57 and Psalm 108 inspired by God?"

Ken's long-winded distracdtions remond me of the Pharisses when Jesus asked themn a simple straight-forward question. I am making a paraphrase to make relevant and to illustrate Ken's refusal to answer:

"When He entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him while He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing instrumentatl music, and who gave You this authority?" Jesus said to them, "I will also ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. "Is Psalm 57 and Psalm 108 inspired by God or by by man?" And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, "If we say, `By God,' He will say to us, `Then why did you not believe wat God has inspired?' "But if we say, `By man,' we fear the people; for we want them to regard our website as if it described God's pattern." And answering Jesus, they said, "We will not give you a striaght answer but instead will fill the air with many confusing and irrelevant words." He also said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things."
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 23rd, 2009, 1:37 am #28

God abandoned Israel to "worship the starry host" according to Stephen and all known evidence. That means that the Monarchy was a gentile-like nation and the temple and the sacrificial system was identical to that of Babylon or Tyre That is why all of the "music guilds" had Canaanite names!

When the WARS were over David had a surplus of Warrior Musicians so he organized a Works Project Administration to keep the mustered out Levites from revolting. Even then they had to rotate and were FED only when on duty.
Stephen said:
........God promised David a TENT
........But, Solomon built God a HOUSE
........But, God is not worshipped in HOUSES built by human hands or by the works of human hands.

That is why NO ONE ever held worship services in the Temple--as your false preacher told you. If a singer or musician went into the Holy Place they would be instantly exocuted. Contrary to what you have fallen for, David did not command instrumental music for the Church of Christ: David was old bloody hands not even fit to build a HOUSE in which God WOULD NOT DWELL or BE WORSHIPPED.

That is why if you ever find an Ekklesia or School of the Bible the preacher will also know chapter 15.

[color=#FF0000" size="3]1Chr. 15:19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass; [/color]

SOUND is not music but a noise saying "pay attention."

CYMBALS:


6750. = tsalal, tsaw-lal´; a primitive root (identical with 6749 through the idea of vibration); to tinkle, i.e. rattle together (as the ears in reddening with shame, or the teeth in chattering with fear): quiver, tingle.

6767. tslatsal, tsel-aw-tsal´; from 6750 reduplicated; a clatter, i.e. (abstractly) whirring (of wings); (concretely) a cricket; also a harpoon (as rattling), a cymbal (as clanging):--cymbal, locust, shadowing, spear.

CYMBALS AND THE TAMBOURINE WERE WOMEN'S INSTRUMENTS: Hell, Topheth, is named after the Tambourine.

Tympanotriba , ae, m., = tumpanotribês, I. a taborer, a timbrel-player, a term of reproach for a soft, effeminate person (alluding to the priests of Cybele), Plaut. Truc. 2, 7, 49; cf. tympanum.

This is the Mother Goddess: in the warning of Paul restricting raising ARMS, hoping that they would let the KNIFE SLIP was to PROVE that the wrath or orge was the musical ritual of perverts.

T. Maccius Plautus, Truculentus, or The Churl

STRATOPHANES (to PHRONESIUM.) What say you? Why have you dared to say that you love another man?

PHRONESIUM I chose to.

STRATOPHANES Say you so, indeed? I'll first make trial of that. Do you, for the sake of such a shabby present, vegetables, and comestibles, and vinegar-water, bestow your love upon an effeminate, frizzle-pated, dark-haunt frequenting, drum-drubbing debauchee, a fellow not worth a nutshell:


........6 Is he deranged: "Hariolus." Literally, "a soothsayer," or "diviner." In their prophetic frenzy,
........these persons often had the appearance of being mad, and were so considered.
........7 Drum-drubbing debauchee: "Typanotriba." Literally, "drum," or "tambourine beater."
........He alludes to the eunuch-priests of Cybele, who used to beat tambourines in her procession-probably
........in allusion to debauchees, emasculated by riot and dissipation


That is why "don't get drunk on wine" before you SPEAK the text often appears as "getting fluted down with wine."

Sistrum, a metallic rattle which was used by the Egyptians in celebrating the rites of Isis, and in other lascivious festivals,.Ov. Am. 2, 13, 11 By the Jews, Vulg. 1 Reg. [Samuel] 18, 6 .--Hence sarcastically, as if used for a war - trumpet by the wanton Cleopatra Verg. A.8.696 Luc. 10.63

CY´MBALUM The cymbal was a very ancient instrument, and unquestionably came from the East, where among other nations it was familiar to the Jews (see Dict. of Bible, s. v.). It is represented in a Phoenician bronze from Cyprus, now in the Cesnola collection at New York (D. and S. i. 1697 a). We find sacred trees depicted with cymbals hung on them as votive offerings, so as to be blown about by the wind (Guhl and Koner, p. 5, fig. 1). Among the Greeks and Romans they were especially used in orgiastic rites of Eastern origin, like those of Cybele (Pind. fragm. 48 = 79 Bergk4; Lucret. ii. 618; Catull. lxiii. 29; Verg. Georg. iv. 64; Propert. iv. 7, 61; Ov. Fast. iv. 213) and Dionysus (Aesch. fragm. cit.; Liv. xxxix 8 fin., 10), as well as in the Eleusinian mysteries of Demeter and Cora (Pind. Isthm. vi. 3; Clem. Alex. Protrept. 2, § 15, p. 14; Schol. Aristoph. Acharn. 708). It will be noticed how constantly, in these passages, the cymbal and the tympanum are coupled together. Art monuments tell the same tale as literature, both as to the joint use of the two instruments and the deities in whose worship they occur. A cymbal figured in Daremberg and Saglio (i. 1697 b) is a votive offering to Cora.

If Jehovah turned them over to worship the starry host then they were NOT worshiping our God but these Babylonian etal "gods."

The Pope's Eunuchs [beginning of text] meaning A CAPPELLA FELLAS.

http://www.piney.com/MuPraiseTeamAcap.html
One of the vices which the Spaniards had brought to Italy in the 16 century along with the Borgia family and the Spanish Roman Emperors was the falsetto singer. There were artists who could sing falsetto with distinction, but as the opera gained in popularity in Italy the practice began of emasculating boys with good voices and retaining them as male soprani or, as the Italians, with their usual lack of Christian reticence about sex called them, the castrati. They were in every opera in the 18th century, but foreign visitors were never reconciled to them. The famous English weekly, The Spectator, wrote about "the shrill celestial whine of eunuchs," and by the end of the 18th century they began to fade out of the opera-house.

These were the a cappella: when it became illegal to castrate the "worship leaders" men began to compose what they called "trousers songs." the few males who could sing in the high imitation of the castrati took over. It has been observed that "praise singers" the OLDEST PROFESSION get to the point that their voice is always effeminate.

[color=#FF0000" size="3] 1Chr. 15:20 And Zechariah, and Aziel, and Shemiramoth, and Jehiel, and Unni, and Eliab, and Maaseiah, and Benaiah, with psalteries on Alamoth[/color]

Ray could tell you that NOT BEFORE God abandoned the king and kingdom to worship like the pagans, ONLY FEMALES did what David is commanding for his WARRIOR MUSICIANS. THEREFORE, lusting for David as proof text OUTS your preferences whether you have caught on or not.

5961. Alamowth, al-aw-moth´; plural of 5959; properly, girls, i.e. the soprano or female voice, perhaps falsetto:--Alamoth.

Psalms Delitzsch

Moreover, we must take into consideration the facts that the compass of the tenor extends even into the soprano, that the singers were of different ages down to twenty years of age, and that Oriental, and more particularly even Jewish, song is fond of FALSETTO singing. We therefore adopt Perret- Gentil's rendering, chant avec voix de femmes, and still more readily Armand de Mestral's, en soprano;/b>

5959. almah, al-maw´; feminine of 5958; a lass (as veiled or private):--damsel, maid, virgin.


The legalists are correct: Jesus never said "thou shalt not perform warrior's PRAISE music" meaning to MAKE SELF VILE in a sexual sense to threaten the enemy.

You will NEVER find any kind of religious "praise music" which is not intended to upset your mind so that you THINK that the evil spirit is a holy spirit. It is not and I appreciate you posting all of the "I have never read the Bible proof texts" but I don't get offended because my job is to WITNESS and your job--if I understand prophecy--is to MOCK. That is a predestianted residue left for anyone who has acceted the music means spiritual worship of a Holy God. I will just send this along so it will be waiting on judgment day.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

February 23rd, 2009, 3:50 pm #29

Alan's simple challenge that Ken is unable to meet: "I want to be able to open a KJV, that this site promotes as the only reliable translation, and read where Jesus says, "Do not use instrumental music in your worship service." I would also like to read where he says, "You are to have a song, a prayer, three more songs, communion, another song, the sermon, and and invitation song.""

And Ray has also asked one more simple challenge that Ken has not yet answered:

"Is Psalm 57 and Psalm 108 inspired by God?"

Ken's long-winded distracdtions remond me of the Pharisses when Jesus asked themn a simple straight-forward question. I am making a paraphrase to make relevant and to illustrate Ken's refusal to answer:

"When He entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him while He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing instrumentatl music, and who gave You this authority?" Jesus said to them, "I will also ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. "Is Psalm 57 and Psalm 108 inspired by God or by by man?" And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, "If we say, `By God,' He will say to us, `Then why did you not believe wat God has inspired?' "But if we say, `By man,' we fear the people; for we want them to regard our website as if it described God's pattern." And answering Jesus, they said, "We will not give you a striaght answer but instead will fill the air with many confusing and irrelevant words." He also said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things."
Ray's biblical "paraphrase" takes liberties with Scripture. Why should the chief priests and elders upbraid Jesus for using instruments when the temple already utilized instrumental music in worship at select times? Alright, instruments were used in temple worship in Jesus' day under the Mosaic Law. Does that practice apply today to Christian worship? "What was good for temple worship is good for Christian worship." Does the New Testament say that? Hardly. Most Christians who stubbornly advocate instruments demand to see a New Testament passage that says, "Christians are forbidden to use instruments in worship." That's using the heretical adage of "God didn't say not to." Most advocates of instruments don't bother to see if the New Testament explicitly authorizes instruments in Christian worship as it explicitly does with vocal music (Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16).

Can we apply the heretical adage of "God didn't say not to" and carry instruments or any other practice of the Mosaic Law into Christian worship? The following paragraphs provide the answer. They are taken from an essay written by the Rev. John M'Donald (1843-1933), a Scottish minister in the Reformed Presbyterian Church. I quote this material, because it shows that even Presbyterians knew at one time that instrumental music was not appropriate for Christian worship:

"Let us take the tabernacle first. Do we find any allusion in the Mosaic record to instrumental music in the service of God? We do. Moses was commanded to make two silver trumpets, and we apprehend that in these silver trumpets we have the germ of that instrumental service afterward so fully developed in the temple. These trumpets, however, were always to be used at special seasons, and every allusion in the Scriptures to those instruments in the tabernacle worship is invariably bound up with the ceremonial observances which God appointed. Instrumental music, either singly or conjointly with the music of the voice, in God's praise, apart from sacrificial offerings, we never find. The invariable rule was, Ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings. [Numbers 10:10] Take away the burnt offerings, and remove the altars of incense, and you take away all the need for the silver trumpets of Moses.

"We now approach the temple. Here we find instrumental music in the richest abundance. It does not much affect the question whether David from his great love for music and skill in the art was prompted, with God's permission, to introduce the cymbal and the harp, or whether he received a direct command from God to arrange those splendid concerts of temple worship with which his name will ever be associated. We are not disposed to question for one moment that the use of instruments was scriptural under the Old Testament economy. And we must say it does appear plausible when we are told that if the use of instruments was enjoined under the law, and if it is fully employed as a symbolic description of the worship of God in heaven, it cannot justly be excluded from the dispensation that comes between and as it were unites the two. If it was right under David, how is it wrong in these times of gospel liberty?

"In opening up this question we answer that the temple, which was the grand center of Jewish symbolism, has been swept away, not merely by the destructive might of the armies of Rome, but by the verdict of Jesus, who declared by his apostle that though it had been glorious it had no glory by reason of the glory that excelleth [2 Corinthians 3:10]. The temple, as the embodiment of Judaism, had a glory all its own - the glory of exalted song and stupendous melody among the rest; but it all fades away before the surpassing glory of the gospel. And our position is, that without the specific warrant of Christ or his apostles, we have no right to drag the elements of temple worship into the sanctuaries of the gospel dispensation. 'The priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change of the law' [Hebrews 7:12].

"We ask our readers to note the following facts which they will find verified in Old Testament history. Instrumental music in religious worship was employed by command of God only in the temple - we have not a single recorded instance of its being employed either in the synagogue or in the homes of the people; it was always rendered by a special class - the priests and Levites; and it was always rendered in connection with the offering of sacrifices to God. If our readers will consult 2 Chronicles 29:25, they will find these statements fully borne out by that single passage. From all this it is most manifest that instrumental music was one element in an elaborate ceremonial and symbolic worship. We never find it by itself in isolated independence. And those therefore who plead for any one of the usages of the tabernacle or temple, without a divine warrant, plead for too much. If we admit instrumental music into our churches either as worship or as an aid to devotion, on this ground, the same argument will ultimately crowd in upon our simple worship all the 'beggarly elements' of an abrogated ceremonialism."

Web Site: http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/mdonald.htm

The bottom line: We are not to carry any remnants of the Mosaic Law (instrumental music, burnt sacrifices, incense, etc.) into Christian worship without the explicit consent of Christ. That consent is not found in the New Testament.




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Ray
Ray

February 23rd, 2009, 5:00 pm #30

Bill,

I appreciate your reply, but you missed the point entirely. The point of the parapharsed example was not to promote instruments or defend them. The point was to expose Ken's refusal to answer simple questions as the same as the Pharisees' refusal to answer Jesus' simple question.

If Ken agrees that Psalms 57 and 108 are inspired by Holy God for our instruction and edification, then he destroys his own argument. If Ken disagrees that Psalms 57 and 108 are inspired by Holy God, then he is guilty of declaring a part of the Holy Scriptures as uninspred, and will lose his audience.

Ken is the one who is guilty of changing the praise of David, the man after God's own heart, into something evil.
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