A discussion of music (outside of the worship)

A discussion of music (outside of the worship)

Joined: June 10th, 2006, 3:36 am

June 10th, 2006, 4:02 am #1

Instrumental Music for God IS sinful: the bible Tells me so.

http://www.piney.com/Instrumental.Music.In.Worship.html

http://www.piney.com/Instrumental.Music ... inful.html

http://www.piney.com/NACC.2013.Victorius.Review.html

Instrumental Music in Worship. people have stolen the worship word to make it listening to self-speak preachers, singers and instrument players.







As a seeker of God's truths, I always have questions. Now, I want to be clear about the question that I am posing. I am not talking about instrumental music in the worship, I am talking about our every day lives outside of the corporate worship.

Can instrumental music contain a postive reference to God? For example, when I was younger, I enjoyed the Garth Brooks song "Unanswered Prayers." The chorus says;

Sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers
Remeber when you're talking to the Man upstairs
That just because he may not answer doesn't mean he don't care
Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers

O.K., If you anwer yes, music can contain a positive reference to God, then when does the music become "wrong?" Is it when we begin to address God directly in the lyrics?

On the other hand if you answer no, to mention God at all and use an instrument is wrong, then is music inheritly evil?

Am I treating this too simply?

In Christ,

Mark F
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on July 25th, 2013, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

June 10th, 2006, 3:05 pm #2

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>First, I would like to point out that the assembly of the saints is NOT about “MUSICAL WORSHIP”—the postmodern thinking that has become pervasive in today’s religious culture. Rather, it is about commemorating the suffering and death of our Savior; it is about exhortation, teaching and admonishing one another, letting the word of Christ dwell in us richly (Acts 11:26; Acts 20:7; Heb. 10:25; Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16).

And outside of the assembly!?! Hmmm! There are positive aspects that can be learned out there. I listen to Rush Limbaugh and other conservative political commentators—[Oops … now you know I’m a right-winger … and notice the word “right” ]—but I also listen to find out about many of the ludicrous liberal viewpoints, both in politics and in religion. (O.K. enough of politics to point out that we have our choices between the positive and the negative.)

On my way to and from work, I listen to BBN (Bible Broadcasting Network), which I believe is Baptist-affiliated. The network does play both instrumental and a cappella music, but not Contemporary Christian Rock Music. I find out easily how much I miss the great hymns of decades and centuries past. I also know the instruments do nothing for me whatsoever—in fact, they hinder and obstruct. BTW, Mark, and this is just my personal view that I prefer references to our heavenly Father with reverence in hymns to those in other music categories.

Instruments can do no wrong for themselves in and out of the assembly of the saints. After all, they’re inanimate objects, right?

Great question!

Donnie</font>
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Joined: February 27th, 2006, 10:01 pm

June 10th, 2006, 4:00 pm #3

Dear Bro. Donnie,

I appreciate your response to the qustion.I am
glad that there are some members of the churches
of Christ who view this particular issue this way.
I think it is a healthy viewpoint. Maybe why I have
such a hard time with the curches of Christ is because
some members are so fanatical about instrumental music
with reference to God. When I was a young teenager I
remember a time that an elder took several of us in
the youth group to hear an evangelist 80 miles away.
On the car ride over there I noticed a Jim Nabors
cassette tape of gospel music, A friend of mine said
'hey can we listen to the tape ?' The elders response
was, and I am not making this up, Where two or three
are gathered together, there am I also'. And since there
were four of us in his car he considered it a sin to
listen to a casette tape that had instrumental music.
My friend who is pretty smart aksed the elder if he would
like to hear a parable like what Jesus taught in the bible.
The elder said yes and this is the parable:

"Once there was a man who was single and wanted so much to
have female compaionship. One Thursday evening he went to
the movies and then to a coffeshop afterwards. The place was
full put a pretty lady offered to share a table with him.
The hours seemed like minutes as they had so much in common
including spiritual values. At daybreak there were still in
the coffeshop but he was getting late for work and had to leave
abrutly. He forgot to get her phone number. All day long he
was thinking about her but he didn't know how to find her. He
thought, 'well if I go to the same coffee shop maybe she will
be there. Sure enough she was there. They both knew they were
meant for each other and wanted to get married that day and
a quick weekend honeymoon trip afterwards.
The following Monday the man went to work and was excited to
come home and see his new wife. He bought flowers and candy
to bring home to her. She spent all day cooking a delicious
meal for him. When he came home he was so happy. He then turned
on a radio to a music station that played romantic songs.
She then went berserk. "Don't ever play instrumental music in
this house when you are making refernce to me. I love to hear
you tell me that you love me but not while there is instrumental
music going on while you make refernce to me. You can play music
outside the house when you make refernce to me but not while we
are inside the house. " The man thought he married a crazy woman.
You see God is not a schizophrenic God who listens to instumental
music in the Old Testament times, then, goes a period of time
without instrumental music, the when we get to heaven have
instumental music back again. No if he accepts instrumental music
he does not change, but he is the same person age to age.

I thought the parable by my friend was very interesting.

Thank you,

Wordkeeper
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 10th, 2006, 6:31 pm #4

So after the c of C elder heard the parable, did he go back to his church and tell everybody to start using instrumental music in congregational worship? The parable is really a pitch for using instrumental music in worship, is it not? Be reminded that God is not a person just like you and I, but He is Spirit, and His ways are not our ways (Isa. 55:8). Therefore, we cannot transfer our thoughts and preferences onto Him. God does not change His principles (Mal. 3:6), but He did "change" from the Mosaic Law to the Law of Christ (planned from the foundation of the world, however), the latter of which only authorizes vocal music in worship (Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16). Why is this? That is for God to know and for Christians to obey. God does not tell us everything in His mind.

When I was a student at David Lipscomb (then) College in the late 60s, one of my Bible professors was Leo Snow. The course was titled "Worship." During the discussion about music in worship, one student (not I) wanted to know what Snow thought about singing hymns with instrumental accompaniment at family gatherings and places outside of the congregational worship. Snow, a very quiet and gentle man, simply stated that if he was in attendance and a group started to sing hymns while someone played an instrument, then he would not sing, for he was of the conviction that when we sing hymns and praises to God anywhere, then we are worshiping Him. And to Snow, vocal music in praise to God was to be offered a cappella. Neither a Pharisee nor a legalist, Snow simply stated his convictions based on New Testament principles. He did not go beyond the limits of Scripture, unlike too many today, who have a penchant for doing just that.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

June 10th, 2006, 7:28 pm #5

The missed point is that the ekklesia is a synagogue is a "school of the Bible." One does not need a direct command NOT to play an instrument when God is speaking through HIS word when we speak "that which is written" using ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to educate, glorify God and KEEP THE UNITY.

That is why you cannot even HALLUCINATE "music" in the spiritual worship of a Spirit God throughout the Bible. The word SPEAK as in the "ekklesia" is defined as "in a whisper or conversatonal tone." Another word for speak means SPEAK which is the OPPOSITE of Music. The "music" word always pointed to the worship of Apollo who is the Abaddon or Apollyon of Revelation and the MUSES were his "team" called LOCUSTS.

Most of us have been taught "a law of singing" which is not Paul's message: we know for a historical fact that SINGING as an ACT in the assembly began about the year 373 to combat heretics using singing OUTSIDE of the assembly to teach the heresy of Arius and others. Most false teaching was OUTSIDE of the assembly as the Arians marched through the streets. They focused on teaching even sailors so that they went into all the world denying the Deity of Jesus Christ.

Not even the Catholics engaged in "congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment." So, we are looking at a latter day heresy.

Now, since you are not holding CLASSES I don't see the problem with singing hymns: I have watched it at social gatherings all of my life. Guitar etal. I still listen to the MIDI versions of the Psalms which are MUCH LESS destructive to the emotions than "a capella" (ala pope's castratos) with a highly-honed COMPLEX harmony which ONLY churches of Christ can do to perfection and to its own destruction.

That said, too many of the AUTHORIZED songs violate the direct command which the Restoration Movement BROKE as they removed from the Presbyterians who had always been PSALM SINGERS ONLY. Almost without exception CCM has a Voodoo beat and teaching false doctrine. It would dangerous to listen to them with or without instruments: you can teach ANYTHING if you put it to a tune and even Classical writers knew that it was "easier to sell a lie if you made it into a song."
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Joined: June 10th, 2006, 3:36 am

June 10th, 2006, 11:15 pm #6

So after the c of C elder heard the parable, did he go back to his church and tell everybody to start using instrumental music in congregational worship? The parable is really a pitch for using instrumental music in worship, is it not? Be reminded that God is not a person just like you and I, but He is Spirit, and His ways are not our ways (Isa. 55:8). Therefore, we cannot transfer our thoughts and preferences onto Him. God does not change His principles (Mal. 3:6), but He did "change" from the Mosaic Law to the Law of Christ (planned from the foundation of the world, however), the latter of which only authorizes vocal music in worship (Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16). Why is this? That is for God to know and for Christians to obey. God does not tell us everything in His mind.

When I was a student at David Lipscomb (then) College in the late 60s, one of my Bible professors was Leo Snow. The course was titled "Worship." During the discussion about music in worship, one student (not I) wanted to know what Snow thought about singing hymns with instrumental accompaniment at family gatherings and places outside of the congregational worship. Snow, a very quiet and gentle man, simply stated that if he was in attendance and a group started to sing hymns while someone played an instrument, then he would not sing, for he was of the conviction that when we sing hymns and praises to God anywhere, then we are worshiping Him. And to Snow, vocal music in praise to God was to be offered a cappella. Neither a Pharisee nor a legalist, Snow simply stated his convictions based on New Testament principles. He did not go beyond the limits of Scripture, unlike too many today, who have a penchant for doing just that.
O.K. This is exactly what I DID NOT WANT! Please refer back to the question in my original post.

AN ASIDE

I do not agree with all of the arguments that we have used to support acapella music, however I am thankful that I do not need an instrument (or a building, song leader, preacher) to worsip God. I am thankful that if the Dr., Mr Cruz and myself found ourselves in a field in West Texas, we could worship God and God would find it pleasing.

On an aside, I take care of the Audio Visual at church and it is a headache just keeping things going with the pulpit mic and the mic that the preacher uses. I can not fathom the effort that it would take to run a sound board for an entire band at church!

BACK TO MY TOPIC

I could quote song after song from the country charts that refers to God in a positive way. This seems to be O.K. to most, however, if it is O.K. to refer to God in a positive way, when does this combination of positive words and instrumentation become wrong?

I'll leave it at that and see if we can stay on topic.

In Christ,

Mark F
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

June 12th, 2006, 7:06 am #7

Dear Bro. Donnie,

I appreciate your response to the qustion.I am
glad that there are some members of the churches
of Christ who view this particular issue this way.
I think it is a healthy viewpoint. Maybe why I have
such a hard time with the curches of Christ is because
some members are so fanatical about instrumental music
with reference to God. When I was a young teenager I
remember a time that an elder took several of us in
the youth group to hear an evangelist 80 miles away.
On the car ride over there I noticed a Jim Nabors
cassette tape of gospel music, A friend of mine said
'hey can we listen to the tape ?' The elders response
was, and I am not making this up, Where two or three
are gathered together, there am I also'. And since there
were four of us in his car he considered it a sin to
listen to a casette tape that had instrumental music.
My friend who is pretty smart aksed the elder if he would
like to hear a parable like what Jesus taught in the bible.
The elder said yes and this is the parable:

"Once there was a man who was single and wanted so much to
have female compaionship. One Thursday evening he went to
the movies and then to a coffeshop afterwards. The place was
full put a pretty lady offered to share a table with him.
The hours seemed like minutes as they had so much in common
including spiritual values. At daybreak there were still in
the coffeshop but he was getting late for work and had to leave
abrutly. He forgot to get her phone number. All day long he
was thinking about her but he didn't know how to find her. He
thought, 'well if I go to the same coffee shop maybe she will
be there. Sure enough she was there. They both knew they were
meant for each other and wanted to get married that day and
a quick weekend honeymoon trip afterwards.
The following Monday the man went to work and was excited to
come home and see his new wife. He bought flowers and candy
to bring home to her. She spent all day cooking a delicious
meal for him. When he came home he was so happy. He then turned
on a radio to a music station that played romantic songs.
She then went berserk. "Don't ever play instrumental music in
this house when you are making refernce to me. I love to hear
you tell me that you love me but not while there is instrumental
music going on while you make refernce to me. You can play music
outside the house when you make refernce to me but not while we
are inside the house. " The man thought he married a crazy woman.
You see God is not a schizophrenic God who listens to instumental
music in the Old Testament times, then, goes a period of time
without instrumental music, the when we get to heaven have
instumental music back again. No if he accepts instrumental music
he does not change, but he is the same person age to age.

I thought the parable by my friend was very interesting.

Thank you,

Wordkeeper
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>To Wordkeeper:

Mark’s topic is about music outside of the assembly.

If you re-read my initial response, you will note that I tried not to deviate from his question. I made it clear in my introductory statement that my understanding of the assembly of the saints is that it is not about musical worship (in the first place).

Then, I went on to explain what I usually do when I’m not in the assembly, such as while I’m driving to and from work. Rather than listen to hard rock music or some other worthless programs, I listen to BBN or to some conservative political commentator. I specifically said that musical instruments do nothing for me … that, instead, they impede my ability to hear the words correctly.

I realize that you are now affiliated with another religious group of your preference, and you seem too preoccupied with justifying the use of instruments in the church you now attend.

So, I’m here to ensure that my earlier comment was not misconstrued and that I’m not endorsing the use of instruments in the assembly—which, according to the scriptures, is designed for exhortation, teaching and admonishing one another.

Donnie</font>
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ppb
ppb

June 17th, 2006, 3:21 am #8

Good question...

The older I get, the more this issue bothers me. Not the musical instrument part outside the worship service, but the songs I listen to. I will admit that I loved punk rock as a college kid, still love industrial and alternative rock. And yes, I'm a woman in my 40's. Go figure! I also love old rock and country. I played in an orchestra for years in high school and college.

Music is important to me. But as I've grown older and watched my children react to the music they hear, I've come to notice a few things that never really crossed my mind before: The impact of lyrics and rhythm.

I really notice the words to songs now and wonder why I ever listened to some of them. Where was my mind at that time? Not centered on Jesus! Cussing, sex, immorality of all kinds...Some of my favorites I have to literally turn off now when they come on. Why didn't I do that when I was younger? That really bothers me. It seems we all just accepted it without thought.

As to rhythm, I now realize how it can impact more than just my mood - it can truly make my body move to a different beat. When I see an MTV video (only when surfing through the TV!!!!), I'm disgusted. The music and beat has two objectives - sexual movement and sales. The two go hand in hand. It is well known that certain beats are meant to ignite one's sexual drive. There are studies on the impact of native ritual music and the sexual libido. I used to laugh at that thought, but now I realize I was just young and stupid. It is a true issue. Now I know why some of the early Church elders wrote Apologies on this very subject and why they considered many instruments to be "Satanic", "disorderly" and "immmoral". It wasn't so much the instrument as it was the type of songs created by that particular instrument. The vibrations, sounds, etc...

Now I find myself doing a lot of surfing on the radio or just playing my own CD's. I actually find myself enjoying some of my kid's cds. There is this Veggie Tales song that I just love! I still don't like "Christian Rock". I don't like the hard beats, slamming rhythms, etc in conjunction with my singing to God. I don't find the lyrics or the music to be orderly or somber or worshipful. I find Christian Rock to be a cop-out for the younger generation that can't FULLY turn away from the "wordly" music.

As for musical instruments in conjunction with Christian songs...I find that the instruments take away from the beauty of the words and seem to overshadow them. Christian songs are the only songs in which the words really are the song. There is real meaning to them and when I sing them, I want the simplicity of that meaning to come through. Instruments break through my thoughts and weaken the meaning. There is a time and place for instruments; but for me, that will never be in conjunction with songs I sing to God.

JMHO
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 18th, 2006, 2:02 pm #9

PPB,

Two books by Kimberly Smith address the very issue of music having a "langauge" of its own, independent of the lyrics. The books are Oh, Be Careful Little Ears and Let Those Who Have Ears to Hear, both from WinePress Publishing. Although Smith is a Baptist and a church musician, her focus is the negative impact that contemporary Christian hard rock music has on human behavior and the fallacies of combining such music with Christian lyrics to make the Church more attractive to the unchurched. Her books debunk Rick Warren's assertion that all music is sterile or amoral, hence "Christian" music as such does not exist, only "Christian" lyrics. She also refutes the myth that Martin Luther's hymns were set to barroom tunes of his day, a myth which many in the Change Movement use as an excuse for ultilizing controversial music in worship.
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Joined: February 27th, 2006, 10:01 pm

June 19th, 2006, 9:10 pm #10

Good question...

The older I get, the more this issue bothers me. Not the musical instrument part outside the worship service, but the songs I listen to. I will admit that I loved punk rock as a college kid, still love industrial and alternative rock. And yes, I'm a woman in my 40's. Go figure! I also love old rock and country. I played in an orchestra for years in high school and college.

Music is important to me. But as I've grown older and watched my children react to the music they hear, I've come to notice a few things that never really crossed my mind before: The impact of lyrics and rhythm.

I really notice the words to songs now and wonder why I ever listened to some of them. Where was my mind at that time? Not centered on Jesus! Cussing, sex, immorality of all kinds...Some of my favorites I have to literally turn off now when they come on. Why didn't I do that when I was younger? That really bothers me. It seems we all just accepted it without thought.

As to rhythm, I now realize how it can impact more than just my mood - it can truly make my body move to a different beat. When I see an MTV video (only when surfing through the TV!!!!), I'm disgusted. The music and beat has two objectives - sexual movement and sales. The two go hand in hand. It is well known that certain beats are meant to ignite one's sexual drive. There are studies on the impact of native ritual music and the sexual libido. I used to laugh at that thought, but now I realize I was just young and stupid. It is a true issue. Now I know why some of the early Church elders wrote Apologies on this very subject and why they considered many instruments to be "Satanic", "disorderly" and "immmoral". It wasn't so much the instrument as it was the type of songs created by that particular instrument. The vibrations, sounds, etc...

Now I find myself doing a lot of surfing on the radio or just playing my own CD's. I actually find myself enjoying some of my kid's cds. There is this Veggie Tales song that I just love! I still don't like "Christian Rock". I don't like the hard beats, slamming rhythms, etc in conjunction with my singing to God. I don't find the lyrics or the music to be orderly or somber or worshipful. I find Christian Rock to be a cop-out for the younger generation that can't FULLY turn away from the "wordly" music.

As for musical instruments in conjunction with Christian songs...I find that the instruments take away from the beauty of the words and seem to overshadow them. Christian songs are the only songs in which the words really are the song. There is real meaning to them and when I sing them, I want the simplicity of that meaning to come through. Instruments break through my thoughts and weaken the meaning. There is a time and place for instruments; but for me, that will never be in conjunction with songs I sing to God.

JMHO
PPB,

I didn't know I had a former rock n roller on
board as myself. These days I'd rather listen
to talk radio than a music station. I don't think
that I've heard but maybe three or four old songs
this year. I have no problem with a fellow believer
listening to whatever music he or she wants. That is
between the believer and the Lord. I have learned a
long time ago that there are issues critical to
faith and there are many issues that fall into the
catagory of preferences. In the first century it
was meat sacrificed to idols. Today it is issues
like social drinking. Nothing inherently wrong one
way or another as long as it doesn't make your
brother or sister stumble. I include instrumental
music as part of the same catagory. I wouldn't dare
enter a church of Christ and play instrumental music
because that would be a sin against a fellow believer
whereas I have no problems with my own church having
instrumental music.

You wrote that you yourself have a preference to not
have instrumental music in association with God or
other spiritual topics but yet you still listen to
some of the old rock songs. I would think that if
anything you would rather hear uplifting christian music
instruments than worldly songs on the radio. Well
I am not the one to judge; to each his own.

P.S. Do you think we might have bumped into one
another earlier in our lives and just didn't know
that we would later be christians ??

Wordkeeper
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