Sonny
Sonny

October 19th, 2010, 12:01 am #41

I did not know my statements were attacking anyone specifically in my reply to Brother Sublett, anymore than his post was attacking anyone specifically. We were both addressing the issues of both worship and sin, not of a specific person other than David in Scripture.

Brother Sublett was discussing David and playing the harp and watching girls, which is what I was responding to, along with his interpretive method(s).

-Sonny
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Donnie
Donnie

October 19th, 2010, 9:26 pm #42

I am concerned about religious bullies and religious hypocrites. I am concerned about preachers who post rebuking remarks toward "progressive churches", etc. on this site who have a "history" of [a "specific" sin that "I know" about] while teaching and preaching the gospel to others. I am concerned and think the members and readers of this site need to be aware and "concerned" about this, for it is a serious matter.

May we all be grateful for the glory of God and redemption of Christ freely by grace through faith!

Romans 3:22-24 reads, "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Christ Jesus to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

-Sonny
Sonny Elliot states:
If the Corinthian church was called into the fellowship of Christ (1 Cor. 1:9), with all of their misunderstandings of worship, and unloving and braggadocious attititudes toward others, then perhaps churches listed AND NOT LISTED under "wall of shame" are together the body of Christ? Every church and every christian needs grace, as we seek to obey and honor Christ in our lives and worship.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: It is likely that congregations or churches listed under "Wall of Shame" have become instrumental music lovers, not necessarily because of the need or desire of the membership of a congregation as a whole, but because of the action taken or decision made by its own leaders -- "the shepherds." Whatever the reason or reasons and excuses by the leadership may be for implementing the mechanical operation of inanimate musical devices in the assembly of living saints, they are beyond the scope of my brief comments at the moment. [We certainly should be able to discuss the human reasoning behind the scheme that it "enhances" worship ... at a later time.]

For now, I just would like to stress the truth:[/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]That there is certainly division in the leadership itself it making the decision. But one side of the aisle, of course, has to win in order to effect the unwanted implementation. [This was especially true in Madison's case in which the eldership was divided over the decision of whether or not to employ the "professional" services of The ["Baptist"] CHOIR in the church of Christ -- The PRAISE TEAM. One side of the division had to win and the other elders would leave or resign and the congregation would split.]

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]That this has to be the work of the change agents operating in the brotherhood, infiltrating and intruding upon the affairs of congregations they seek to devour. Keep in mind that the activities and efforts of change agents can be equated to activities and efforts of the progressives and liberals in the political arena (just look around us and see for yourselves).

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]That change agents, perhaps unbeknownst to themselves [while they think and believe that they're doing the citizens of the kingdom a favor], have their own agenda and whose schemes are destructive to the church and its New Testament identity and are unnecessarily causing division in the body of Christ.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]That churches of Christ simply do not use instrumental music in their assemblies and are, therefore, not to be blamed for division. After all, they are not the intruders; rather, they're the ones victimized.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]That those who are part of the divided eldership that favors loving instrumental music, with those certain members who desire to go along, should start their own congregation from scratch to avoid a "divided" kingdom from happening.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]That it is God's will to "mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them" (Rom. 16:17).[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]That based on Scripture, the Directory of Churches of Christ" should identify and exclude those who would rather be affiliated with the Christian Church or the Community Church.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]That based on Scripture, the article "Wall of Shame" should identify and list those who would rather be affiliated with the Christian Church or the Community Church.[/color]
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Marking "them" is not wrong or bad or sinful. The Scripture recommends it; in fact, Scripture commands it.[/color]
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

October 19th, 2010, 10:08 pm #43

Sonny wrote: "If the Corinthian church was called into the fellowship of Christ (1 Cor. 1:9), with all of their misunderstandings of worship, and unloving and braggadocious attititudes toward others, then perhaps churches listed AND NOT LISTED under 'wall of shame' are together the body of Christ?"

Wasn't Paul's letter to the Corinthian church written to straighten them out regarding their "misunderstandings of worship" and other errors? A church that promotes error falls out of the body of Christ, but if that church returns to the right path of the New Testament, it is restored to the body of Christ. However, a church that promotes error and refuses to return to the right path will remain outside the body of Christ. Can churches still receive grace if they deliberately promote that which the New Testament does not teach? I think not.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

October 19th, 2010, 10:44 pm #44

(The following is a reply to both brothers Crump and Cruz).

I guess it is o.k. [...] to follow and report on stories about churches AND MINISTERS related to the sin (?) of instrumental music without being accused of wasting time, nor being wealthy, but it's not for Sonny to [...] report ... sin [of others except his own].

The readers can decide for themselves credibility, and what is fact, what is fiction.

I wanted to give you men time to draw your conclusions and make your typical bullying remarks, which is why I withheld my full name at first. I knew how you guys would play this.

My name is Sonny Elliot. I suppose now I must give my social security number and home address or I am a "coward" in Dr. Crumps eyes

[Remarks not conducive to "Christian" reading here ... ... ... deleted.]

-Sonny
Sonny wrote: "I wanted to give you men time to draw your conclusions and make your typical bullying remarks..."

I guess some folks regard anyone who speaks the plain, hard truth as being a "bully." Such is life.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 19th, 2010, 11:28 pm #45

Sonny wrote: "If the Corinthian church was called into the fellowship of Christ (1 Cor. 1:9), with all of their misunderstandings of worship, and unloving and braggadocious attititudes toward others, then perhaps churches listed AND NOT LISTED under 'wall of shame' are together the body of Christ?"

Wasn't Paul's letter to the Corinthian church written to straighten them out regarding their "misunderstandings of worship" and other errors? A church that promotes error falls out of the body of Christ, but if that church returns to the right path of the New Testament, it is restored to the body of Christ. However, a church that promotes error and refuses to return to the right path will remain outside the body of Christ. Can churches still receive grace if they deliberately promote that which the New Testament does not teach? I think not.
The heresies in Corinth specificially point to people who invade other people's property with the intention of taking it for themselves. "Choosing for oneself" means choosing YOUR property for their own use.

The hireling-changelings claim to be "moles" intending to "infiltrate and divert your church to turn it into a theater for holy entertainment." This is the Purpose Driven Cult using entertainment and silencing the preaching and teaching. Therefore, the Doctors of the Law--Shelly etal--are just out of their skins when they think that Corinth is an example of Unity in Diversity. In fact Corinth never changed and never repented and was always fighting over control.

When Paul speaks of the Super-Apostles he is speaking of those who had INFILTRATED and demanded a wage. When they said Paul did not accept money they responded that Paul wasn't WORTH a salary:

The old PATTERNISM is repeating before our eyes and ears where men have stooped to picking the pockets of widows and then telling them to "get over it or get out."

Your assemblies do more harm than good:

1Cor. 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not,
..... that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

1Cor. 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church,
.....I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Cor. 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you,
.....that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
1Cor. 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place,
.....this is not to eat the Lords supper.

Hairesis A. taking, especially of a town, Hdt.4.1, etc.; h basileos hai. the taking by the king, Id.9.3; elpizn takhistn -sin esesthai Th. 2.75; hai. dunames acquisition of power

Especially a religious party or sect, of the Essenes, J.BJ2.8.1; the Sadducees and Pharisees, Act.Ap.5.17, 15.5, 26.5; the Christians, ib.24.5,14, 28.22, generally, faction, party, App.BC5.2.

Heredotus Hdt. 4.1 After taking Babylon, Darius himself marched against the Scythians. For since Asia was bursting with men and vast revenues were coming in, Darius desired to punish the Scythians for the wrong they had begun when they invaded Media first and defeated those who opposed them in battle.

Next Part: now that you have TAKEN A CHURCH CAPTIVE how do you control the captives to make sure that THEY do not STEAL BACK their own propert.



Last edited by Ken.Sublett on October 19th, 2010, 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave
Dave

October 20th, 2010, 9:15 pm #46

Restructuring the way that man worshiped God, ending the use of animal sacrifices once and for all, and needing only the One and Only Lamb of God, offering Himself as the Ultimate sacrifice and establishing His church

Incorporating worship not just on Sunday but including a DAILY WORSHIP from the heart and not worrying about what man wants in the way of worship but what God wants. This being a Jesus that would accept praise teams, singing with instruments, singing without instruments, clapping, etc., as long as the Scripture is being adhered to and God is worshiped faithfully. This being a Jesus allowing God to judge whose heart is right.NOT MAN.

Allowing both men and WOMEN to faithfully worship Him, as shown time and time again in Gods Holy Word

Using the Lords Supper to REMEMBER ME and not using the Lords Supper to be the insipid example of what GOD DIDNT SAY NOT TO by saying that ketchup or cocaine could be used to represent the Lords Cup in place of the true examples of wine and the fruit of the vine.

Jesus did not extend the hand of fellowship based on what man constitutes membership into the body of Christ. He did so solely on how man loved Him and how man loved his neighbor. He gave membership to the Kingdom based on man following God instead of what man wanted.

Jesus showed how important baptism was by being baptized Himself, but He wanted ALL men to know that it was HE, HIS BLOOD, and HIS WORDS that savednot water.
Jesus didnt allow other men to add to His Word by adding sins which werent in the Word, including instrumental music.

Jesus was a man of emotion and had great zeal for His Fathers love and work. Jesus believed that if you couldnt show emotion for the True Love of this world, then you shouldnt follow Him. You didnt have to worry about putting on your best clothes for Him or putting on a masquerade. He cared only for how the heart was, not how clean or pressed another mans clothes were.

Jesus didnt want anyone to miss His and God's Grace to the point of thinking that you could actually do enough to pay for the debt of Love that Jesus gave for us all. He wanted men to do His bidding because of ONLY ONE attributeLOVE!

Jesus discouraged others for boasting in any works of man, including a restoration movement that would take away from His Sacrifice of Love for all.
I saw where Ken Was doing the EDITING? Is that what you call it now? EDITING??? Fancy name for either deleting or changing one's message.....either way I wouldn't expect anything less from this site.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

October 21st, 2010, 1:57 am #47

Well, what does Dave expect from an edited message--that it be published word for word as he originally wrote it? An edited message has been reworded, augmented, or had parts deleted so that it is fit for publication; in this case, fit for Christian consumption. Of course, if Dave doesn't like the fact that Ken may edit some of Dave's posts, Dave does have the choice to post nothing at all. It's his choice.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 21st, 2010, 2:37 am #48

I am concerned about religious bullies and religious hypocrites. I am concerned about preachers who post rebuking remarks toward "progressive churches", etc. on this site who have a "history" of [a "specific" sin that "I know" about] while teaching and preaching the gospel to others. I am concerned and think the members and readers of this site need to be aware and "concerned" about this, for it is a serious matter.

May we all be grateful for the glory of God and redemption of Christ freely by grace through faith!

Romans 3:22-24 reads, "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Christ Jesus to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

-Sonny
I saw a dozen paragraphs all lumped together in bright red: all I did was to put space in and change the color to black.

No changes.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

October 21st, 2010, 3:08 am #49

So the fact that Ken "edited" Dave's post by making it more readable (without changing any text) still upset Dave. Did Dave even bother to check to see that none of his text had been changed? It seems that Dave was just itching to accuse Ken of something--anything.
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Dave
Dave

October 21st, 2010, 4:37 pm #50

William,
I believe that with Jesus Christ there is always hope. You, however, show me that a man has to want to change to be conform to His Will. You have to get away from YOU and let Jesus take over your heart for that to happen. Every time I hear you respond I keep hoping.....and hoping.....and I pray.....

Proverbs 23
7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

Also remember William that if you get away from being self-centered, and take on the Ways of our Lord, anything is possible.

Matthew 19:26 (New King James Version)
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

The NKJV.......demonic like the NIV???
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