Sonny
Sonny

November 9th, 2010, 4:52 am #31

Paul (formerly Saul) had once hauled Christians to prison, where they suffered torture and death at the hands of the Romans. Yet Christ forgave Paul and made him an apostle. When Paul began his ministry, the disciples in Jerusalem were initially wary of him, because of his past (Acts 9:26).

Today, though a man preaches in the name of Jesus, those who loathe what that person preaches may attempt to discredit that man by dredging up whatever "past" he may have had or even by spreading false tales. It's the old tactic of "murdering" the messenger to stifle the message. All people on this planet, preachers alike, have sins in their lives. Man may think that some of those sins are "worse" than others, yet every sin, no matter how slight, has the potential to cause a person to lose his soul, UNLESS Christ has forgiven that person.

Therefore, good "Christian" people with itching ears, before you leap to wag your loose tongues and point your soiled fingers in accusation, remember these words of Jesus:

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye" (Matt. 7:3-5 KJV).

Or how about these words?

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..." (John 8:7 KJV).

Yes, by their attitudes, it is evident that some folks as much as say, "Well, I am indeed without sin and perfect, so here's the largest rock I can find, and I aim to crush your miserable skull with it!"--SMASH
Is it a tale? or Is it truth for which forgiveness has been granted? You are changing your defense. Other than this, the spiritual points you make are EXACTLY what I was advocating, and that people with sin (and like you stated, this includes elders, preachers, deacons, and all) should show some humility and contrition and also mercy toward other Christians. We have finally reached some common ground!!! However, the question is who is casting stones and who is trying to hold the thrower(s) accountable? The stones on this site are being cast at the "progressive" preachers. The stones are being cast at the "change agents". Look at the people named on the wall. Is "The Wall" article not casting stones? I and others are simply trying to hold individuals accountable for the double-standard (hypocrisy). In conclusion: No one is throwing a stone at Brother Crump, Cruz, Sublett, etc. We are simply engaging in dialogue and refuting your claims and points against "progressives" and "change agents".

-Sonny
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 9th, 2010, 4:55 am #32

God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to

There ya go William Crump.....just thought that I would help you out.
You are so possessed with this statement that no one but you speaks of........just thought that you might get your fill of it this way.
It's quite obvious that Dave hasn't enrolled in that anger management course yet.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 9th, 2010, 8:49 am #33


1. If someone worships God acappella, yet commits adultery, can they be forgiven?

2. If someone worships God with a piano, yet does not commit adultery, can they be forgiven? (I understand this is assuming/implying that the piano is a sin.)

3. If someone worships acappella, does not commit adultery, but does not show mercy to others, can they be forgiven? (James 2:12 and 4:11-12 warn not to judge without mercy.)

-Sonny
1. Let's briefly dissect the passages that Christ's followers [that includes you and me, Sonny] are familiar with -- Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19. Primary objective is for God's followers to "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly." How is this accomplished? Key tasks involve: teaching and admonishing. Medium of instruction: speaking in ... songs or singing.

Unless it's a congregation of one follower [all alone at home or traveling], the expressions:
(a) Speaking to YOURSELVES in ... songs;
(b) Teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER in ... songs;
(c) Singing with grace in YOUR HEARTS to the Lord --
... strongly suggest the congregants being present or in the assembly.

2. [and]

3. The man-designated office of "Worship Leader" is not on this list that Christ gave in Ephesians 4:11-12:
(1) for the perfecting of the saints;
(2) for the work of the ministry;
(3) for the edifying of the body of Christ:<blockquote>(a) Apostles
(b) Prophets
(c) Evangelists
(d) Pastors-Teachers [a.k.a. Elders]
</blockquote>There is no "Worship Leader" that stands between God and the believers.

Jehoiada was the leader of the Aaronites (I Chron. 12:27). David consulted with the captains and leaders (I Chron. 13:1). There were leaders and captains in the camp of the king of Assyria (II Chron. 32:21). Moses was a leader. But there was/is NO "Worship Leader" in God's assembly.

It is a strange emphasis on worship out there among the progressives. It has reached a point (actually a trend, a fad) that in a "contemporary worship" format, the assembly is segmented as follows:
(a) The ACTUAL "worship" period that clearly involves the man-designated "Worship Leader" in action -- leading, with his CHOIR (a.k.a. "Praise Team") co-leading, a series of several (and mostly) "praise" songs and occasional "sacred hymns." (Typical of a praise song may include: "I love you, Jesus ... oh, how beautiful you are to me ... the darling of my soul ... Oh, I was made for this, to know Your tender kiss....") Observance of the Lord's Supper is somewhere in the middle of the musical worship period.

(b) After the musical worship period, then, there's the 20-minute sermon with the invitation song and closing song.
You're correct in that the "song leader" is not in Scripture, either. But, of course, the difference is that he is not "the Worship Leader" -- and not serving in that capacity as though he mediated worship between God and His followers. In reality, one who leads singing can simply start the song with the correct pitch and go back to his seat.

The situation of one starting the song (and possibly going back to his seat) should lead one to conclude that it would not be necessary to have 2 or more song starters.

I agree with statement #3 that nowhere in Scripture does it specify a song starter (and worse: a "Worship Leader" in the sense described above). The difference is that a song starter may be necessary whereas the "Worship Leader" to mediate "worship" between God and the congregants is not only unnecessary but is also a violation of the principle of a believer directing his worship to God without mediation. It reminds me of the Roman Catholic Church belief or practice of "confessing sins" to/through the priest.

We already know and, therefore, there's nothing new with where you're going with this.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 9th, 2010, 4:01 pm #34

1. Where in Scripture does God command or specify congregational singing in the assembly?

2. Where in Scripture does God command or specify how many song/worship leaders in the assembly?

3. Where in Scripture does God command or specify there is even to be a song/worship leader in the assembly?

Readers already see where I am going with this, but I will wait patiently until these questions are answered before making the connection and discussing consistent and inconsistent interpretive methods.

Meanwhile, I would submit that instrumental worship is authorized and taught as acceptable, though perhaps not commanded in the sense that one must worship with them. Like clapping and bowing and fasting and lifting hands are not as critical or as necessary as outer expressions of worship as is what is in the heart.

-Sonny
Were we to ask, "Where in Scripture does God command or specify that instrumental music is acceptable in worship?" Sonny would likely cite Psalm 150 or 2 Chron. 29. Sonny would then conclude, "I would submit that instrumental worship is authorized and taught as acceptable..." In other words, Sonny's alleged "authorization" for instrumental Christian worship comes from the Old Testament, the religious rituals of which are not applicable to Christian worship today (Col. 2:14).

Were we to be a bit more specific and ask, "Where in the New Testament does God command or specify that instrumental music is acceptable in Christian worship on earth?" Sonny would be at a loss to provide book, chapter, and verse. Yet Sonny would likely say, "That doesn't matter, because the Old Testament, the Mosaic Law, authorizes it, so there!" Suffice it to say that Sonny's "authorization" for instrumental Christian worship does NOT come from the New Testament.

Were we to ask Dave the second question, he would likely say something to the effect of, "Instrumental worship is acceptable, because God does not condemn it in the New Testament; further, anything that God does not explicitly condemn by name is acceptable." Dave would never admit it, but that's exactly the same as saying, "God didn't say not to." Dave would deny that, blue blazes, up and down. Blue...Blazes. Yet Dave still hasn't accepted the fact that the premise of "God didn't say not to" is not found anywhere in the New Testament. (BTW, Dave may want to prevent a tantrum by writing 500 times, "God didn't say not to.")

So in summary, Sonny implies that Christians can extract whatever pleases them from the Old Testament rituals and apply them to Christian worship (which is a shallow, pick-and-choose religion), while Dave as much as resorts to "God didn't say not to."
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Fred Whaley
Fred Whaley

November 9th, 2010, 4:42 pm #35

Paul (formerly Saul) had once hauled Christians to prison, where they suffered torture and death at the hands of the Romans. Yet Christ forgave Paul and made him an apostle. When Paul began his ministry, the disciples in Jerusalem were initially wary of him, because of his past (Acts 9:26).

Today, though a man preaches in the name of Jesus, those who loathe what that person preaches may attempt to discredit that man by dredging up whatever "past" he may have had or even by spreading false tales. It's the old tactic of "murdering" the messenger to stifle the message. All people on this planet, preachers alike, have sins in their lives. Man may think that some of those sins are "worse" than others, yet every sin, no matter how slight, has the potential to cause a person to lose his soul, UNLESS Christ has forgiven that person.

Therefore, good "Christian" people with itching ears, before you leap to wag your loose tongues and point your soiled fingers in accusation, remember these words of Jesus:

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye" (Matt. 7:3-5 KJV).

Or how about these words?

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..." (John 8:7 KJV).

Yes, by their attitudes, it is evident that some folks as much as say, "Well, I am indeed without sin and perfect, so here's the largest rock I can find, and I aim to crush your miserable skull with it!"--SMASH
Folks consider it a great incredible glorious outstanding day whenever a hyper-ultra-conservative who customarily advocates toxic "Christian" ideas and acts superior to other Christians is now urging grace and forgiveness and teachings of Jesus for a change. Is this miraculous? Or supernatural? Or providential? Or coincidence? I love listening to hair-splitting conversations and classes on miraculous versus supernatural. Anywho it looks as though the Holy Spirit is at work on this site and in the heart of Mr. Crump. Apparently he has finally stopped his subscription to The Spiritual Sword and Christianity Then And Now and allowed the actual Word of God and Holy Spirit to get under his skin. Let's give the Lord a hand clap or an amen.

Fred Whaley

"If you are in the parking lot and have still not quit arguing with the people on the porch, you haven't left the Church of Christ yet."
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 9th, 2010, 6:08 pm #36

It sounds as if Fred revels in sarcasm and hyperbole.

His statement, "Let's give the Lord a hand clap or an amen" smacks of the adrenaline-powered pentecostal/charismatic movement. Their "sermons" often contain phraseology not unlike the following:

"If you got the Lord, you gonna walk with the Lord. Am I right, oh yeah, am I right?"

"Yassuh, yassuh, hallelujah!"

"An' iffen you walk with the Lord, you gonna talk with the Lord. Iffen I'm right, say 'Amen'!"

"Amen, yassuh, amen!"

"Ah cain't hearrr youuuuuu! Say 'hallelujah' iffen I'm right!"

"Hallelujah, amen, yassuh, amen, yeah-boy, wooooo!"

"Oh yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right! Gimme a big 'hallelujah iffen' I'm right oh yeah mmmm yeah, gimme a 'hallelujah'!"

Sound familiar? Not much in the way of teaching and edification there, just a lot of frenzied group whoop.

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Dave
Dave

November 9th, 2010, 9:49 pm #37

1. Let's briefly dissect the passages that Christ's followers [that includes you and me, Sonny] are familiar with -- Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19. Primary objective is for God's followers to "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly." How is this accomplished? Key tasks involve: teaching and admonishing. Medium of instruction: speaking in ... songs or singing.

Unless it's a congregation of one follower [all alone at home or traveling], the expressions:
(a) Speaking to YOURSELVES in ... songs;
(b) Teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER in ... songs;
(c) Singing with grace in YOUR HEARTS to the Lord --
... strongly suggest the congregants being present or in the assembly.

2. [and]

3. The man-designated office of "Worship Leader" is not on this list that Christ gave in Ephesians 4:11-12:
(1) for the perfecting of the saints;
(2) for the work of the ministry;
(3) for the edifying of the body of Christ:<blockquote>(a) Apostles
(b) Prophets
(c) Evangelists
(d) Pastors-Teachers [a.k.a. Elders]
</blockquote>There is no "Worship Leader" that stands between God and the believers.

Jehoiada was the leader of the Aaronites (I Chron. 12:27). David consulted with the captains and leaders (I Chron. 13:1). There were leaders and captains in the camp of the king of Assyria (II Chron. 32:21). Moses was a leader. But there was/is NO "Worship Leader" in God's assembly.

It is a strange emphasis on worship out there among the progressives. It has reached a point (actually a trend, a fad) that in a "contemporary worship" format, the assembly is segmented as follows:
(a) The ACTUAL "worship" period that clearly involves the man-designated "Worship Leader" in action -- leading, with his CHOIR (a.k.a. "Praise Team") co-leading, a series of several (and mostly) "praise" songs and occasional "sacred hymns." (Typical of a praise song may include: "I love you, Jesus ... oh, how beautiful you are to me ... the darling of my soul ... Oh, I was made for this, to know Your tender kiss....") Observance of the Lord's Supper is somewhere in the middle of the musical worship period.

(b) After the musical worship period, then, there's the 20-minute sermon with the invitation song and closing song.
You're correct in that the "song leader" is not in Scripture, either. But, of course, the difference is that he is not "the Worship Leader" -- and not serving in that capacity as though he mediated worship between God and His followers. In reality, one who leads singing can simply start the song with the correct pitch and go back to his seat.

The situation of one starting the song (and possibly going back to his seat) should lead one to conclude that it would not be necessary to have 2 or more song starters.

I agree with statement #3 that nowhere in Scripture does it specify a song starter (and worse: a "Worship Leader" in the sense described above). The difference is that a song starter may be necessary whereas the "Worship Leader" to mediate "worship" between God and the congregants is not only unnecessary but is also a violation of the principle of a believer directing his worship to God without mediation. It reminds me of the Roman Catholic Church belief or practice of "confessing sins" to/through the priest.

We already know and, therefore, there's nothing new with where you're going with this.
Sonny, would you expect anything differently? William Crump at it again. He wants to answer for us by saying "Yet Sonny would likely say," and also for me William pipes up and assumes for me "he would likely say something to the effect of,"

Sonny, William should run for office. Looks like a sly politicians' rebuttal. Speaking for someone else. A wolf in sheep's clothing. William, not seeing the answer he likes, decides to make it up as he goes......

Here's MY, Dave's, answer, for anyone to see.....The New Testament doesn't list instrumental music as sinful. Therefore, man cannot take it upon himself to add a sin to the Scriptures that is NOT there.
What William Crump wants is a double standard. It is ok for a PA system to be used to aid in our worship to our Lord, but a piano, which also is an aid, cannot be used. Neither one is listed or referred to as being examples in the New Testament. Neither one is authorized. Why use one, but not the other? Tell them William.......PREFERRENCE. William's man made tradition will not allow him to use a piano, but it is ok to use a PA system.
I ask.....why not use both to the Glory of God?
AMEN and AMEN!
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 9th, 2010, 9:59 pm #38

It sounds as if Fred revels in sarcasm and hyperbole.

His statement, "Let's give the Lord a hand clap or an amen" smacks of the adrenaline-powered pentecostal/charismatic movement. Their "sermons" often contain phraseology not unlike the following:

"If you got the Lord, you gonna walk with the Lord. Am I right, oh yeah, am I right?"

"Yassuh, yassuh, hallelujah!"

"An' iffen you walk with the Lord, you gonna talk with the Lord. Iffen I'm right, say 'Amen'!"

"Amen, yassuh, amen!"

"Ah cain't hearrr youuuuuu! Say 'hallelujah' iffen I'm right!"

"Hallelujah, amen, yassuh, amen, yeah-boy, wooooo!"

"Oh yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right! Gimme a big 'hallelujah iffen' I'm right oh yeah mmmm yeah, gimme a 'hallelujah'!"

Sound familiar? Not much in the way of teaching and edification there, just a lot of frenzied group whoop.
Fred mentioned "toxic" Christian ideas from "hyper-ultra-conservative." Maybe Fred is referring to those in the Church of Christ who:

--Follow the strait and narrow path by obeying the teachings of Christ.

--Believe that the ultimate source to learn about salvation is the New Testament and not the latest, best-selling book by some ultra-liberal shaman of the Change Movement.

--Reject the idea that a person may be saved simply by "following his heart."

--Reject denominationalism on the basis that Christ never commanded that His Church be divided into hundreds of different denominations with abundant beliefs and doctrines that are alien to His; rather, Christ preached about His ONE True Church.

--Take Christ's requirements for salvation very seriously.

--Will not pollute worship with frivolity, fun and games, jokes, comedy, drama, soloists, praise teams, and other worldly events that convert the worship assemby into a raucous center for the performing arts.

--Believe the principles and teachings of Christ's ONE True Church are still alive and well after more than 2,000 years.

--Continue to follow the Old Paths of Christ's teachings in the New Testament.

--Believe that having "love" and "feeling good about Jesus" are fine, yet without strict obedience to Jesus, they are worthless.

I guess you could say that, in the eyes of some misguided people, following Jesus as He has commanded is a "toxic" concept for Christianity.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 9th, 2010, 10:11 pm #39


1. If someone worships God acappella, yet commits adultery, can they be forgiven?

2. If someone worships God with a piano, yet does not commit adultery, can they be forgiven? (I understand this is assuming/implying that the piano is a sin.)

3. If someone worships acappella, does not commit adultery, but does not show mercy to others, can they be forgiven? (James 2:12 and 4:11-12 warn not to judge without mercy.)

-Sonny
Ex. 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you:
..... every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death:
..... for whosoever doeth any work therein,
.....that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Keep in Latin: Custodio II. With the accessory idea of hindering free motion, A. In gen., to hold something back, to preserve, keep:

..... Meaning to keep precepts or laws: Regula a rule, pattern, measuring rod,
..... formula sermonis
..... Loquor to speak, talk, say (sermo in the lang. of common life,
..... in the tone of conversation Opposite to poetry or music

Custodio: hold something back, preserve, hinder free motion, watch, preserve. hold back simulation.

.....Simulatio hold back . a falsely assumed appearance,
.....a false show, feigning, shamming, pretence, feint, i
.....insincerity, deceit, hypocrisy, simulation,
.....pretend to be under a divine command.

DEFILE

Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute): --- take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute,

Of Lucifer the "singing and harp playing prostitute" in the garden of Eden to PROFANE:

Ezek. 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

`

Israel PROFANED the Sabbath by MUSIC and God "turned them over to worship the starry host which they did in Israel and in Judah and in ANY instrumental church near you.

http://www.piney.com/Exodus.32.html

Disciples do not HAVE to be hobbled by a direct command when Jesus comes to be our ONLY teacher when we "teach that which is written" or "that which has been taught."

Christ now CUTS PEOPLE OFF as defined in Revelation 18 when He removes the LAMPS or seven spirits of Divine knowledge (Isaiah 11) so you cannot read black text on white paper.
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Donnie
Donnie

November 9th, 2010, 10:45 pm #40

Sonny, would you expect anything differently? William Crump at it again. He wants to answer for us by saying "Yet Sonny would likely say," and also for me William pipes up and assumes for me "he would likely say something to the effect of,"

Sonny, William should run for office. Looks like a sly politicians' rebuttal. Speaking for someone else. A wolf in sheep's clothing. William, not seeing the answer he likes, decides to make it up as he goes......

Here's MY, Dave's, answer, for anyone to see.....The New Testament doesn't list instrumental music as sinful. Therefore, man cannot take it upon himself to add a sin to the Scriptures that is NOT there.
What William Crump wants is a double standard. It is ok for a PA system to be used to aid in our worship to our Lord, but a piano, which also is an aid, cannot be used. Neither one is listed or referred to as being examples in the New Testament. Neither one is authorized. Why use one, but not the other? Tell them William.......PREFERRENCE. William's man made tradition will not allow him to use a piano, but it is ok to use a PA system.
I ask.....why not use both to the Glory of God?
AMEN and AMEN!
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

Refresh my memory.

You have a short list of sins from I Cor. 5-6 such as covetourness, drunkenness, extortion, idolatry, railing, etc. Can't you think of other sins that may not be found in Scripture? If you can't, then, you have a pretty limited knowledge and understanding of man's nature to do sinful things. If you can and you feel that to God those are sins, do you think that God just forgot to list them? Do you think that God should have listed all the sins of the world that man might possibly commit?

Have you invented yet a musical instrument that consists of several PA systems -- which when played together as a musical unit produce music that could accompany singing wonderfully?

We might be able to compare that musical invention with the piano ... then.

You see, right now, I have difficulty comparing a microphone to a piano. [/color]
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