A Concerned Member Of The Church (Part 2) - 3 Questions

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 5th, 2010, 10:42 pm #21

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Scotty,

If you are a new poster, we welcome your presence.

Here's our message in dealing with anyone's "tale" (true or untrue) concerning someone else's sinfulness. Or, even someone else's righteousness. Either way, a Christian's righteousness or sinfulness [forgiven by our merciful God or not forgiven] is between him and God.

You or anyone can submit a message telling the whole world about your own righteousness or sinlessness. For the same reason, whether that "tale" is true or untrue, that message will not be approved, either.

If you have anything to contribute to our discussion of doctrinal issues or God's truth, please feel free to do so. That's the kind of truth we're interested in.

ConcernedMembers

P.S.: You said that: "you can know the person by their actions." I would like to add that "one can know the person by his thoughts" also, such as what you've demonstrated so far in your posts.[/color]
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 6th, 2010, 12:50 am #22

Sonny said he knows first hand of what he spoke. I also have spoken to former family members who should know. Denying the past truth does not make it untrue. The only reason the truth is denied here is that it involves one whose opinion you value more than you value the truth of the past.

This all remands me of a former friend who left their spouse, publicly slandered and bore false witness against their former spouse, but when they left the church of Christ and moved to a sabbatarian church, the sabbatarians ignored the sin because this person was now one of their own.

You can choose to deny or ignore the sin because you like what someone teaches. Or you can know the person by their actions.
Paul (formerly Saul) had once hauled Christians to prison, where they suffered torture and death at the hands of the Romans. Yet Christ forgave Paul and made him an apostle. When Paul began his ministry, the disciples in Jerusalem were initially wary of him, because of his past (Acts 9:26).

Today, though a man preaches in the name of Jesus, those who loathe what that person preaches may attempt to discredit that man by dredging up whatever "past" he may have had or even by spreading false tales. It's the old tactic of "murdering" the messenger to stifle the message. All people on this planet, preachers alike, have sins in their lives. Man may think that some of those sins are "worse" than others, yet every sin, no matter how slight, has the potential to cause a person to lose his soul, UNLESS Christ has forgiven that person.

Therefore, good "Christian" people with itching ears, before you leap to wag your loose tongues and point your soiled fingers in accusation, remember these words of Jesus:

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye" (Matt. 7:3-5 KJV).

Or how about these words?

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..." (John 8:7 KJV).

Yes, by their attitudes, it is evident that some folks as much as say, "Well, I am indeed without sin and perfect, so here's the largest rock I can find, and I aim to crush your miserable skull with it!"--SMASH
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Sonny
Sonny

November 8th, 2010, 6:38 am #23

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

If you really want to know about the types [not "type"] of singing at Madison, here it is:

(1) The "worship services" of the "Traditional" [eldership-designated] division does congregational singing ONLY.

(2) The "worship services" of the "Contemporary" [eldership-designated] division does "Praise Team" singing AND congregational singing BOTH.

I stress "division" because that was the end result of the Change Agents' original attempt to transform the once-peaceful and growing Madison congregation into a mega Community Church. The attempt or the scheme, rather, which was culture-driven, to "grow the church" failed. Although instrumental music might have been a part of the scheme in later stages, the installation of the "PRAISE TEAM" at the time was "the straw that broke the camel's back." The elders were divided. The membership was divided as well: members left in droves to seek fellowship somewhere else.

So, now, you can see that to accommodate the "needs" of the divided membership, the elders designated such labels as "traditional" and "contemporary."

All that division primarily because of the Praise Team controversy?

O.K. I'll be brief on this one: One Sunday recently, there was a female soloist from the Praise Team that did a solo performance in the midst of the observance of the Lord's Supper. (I consider myself focused in dealing with a serious matter at any given moment. But guess what? I wasn't exactly focused this time. I should have prayed: "Lord, forgive me for being distracted at the moment by such a very beautiful singing voice.") Hopefully, you now understand the performance issue involving the unnecessary and extraneous "services" of the Praise Team.

Actually, in the "contemporary" division, in addition to the Praise Team, there is also the non-Praise Team called the "regular" congregation. Unfortunately, congregational singing is dying or at least diminishing as the Praise Team [with their handheld microphones] is dominating and overpowering the singing of the regular guys. [Maybe, each member of the congregation should have an individual microphone as well?????]

You might argue that there is still congregational singing in the contemporary group.

You're partly correct. There is congregational singing in the contemporary group. To complete the confusing puzzle, you must consider, and you know it, that there is also the Praise Team singing. In fact, there are times when only the Praise Team performs while the congregation shuts up.

In essence, the "a cappella" Praise Team is not "the congregation." If the PT members want to be part of the congregation, they should act like regular members of the congregation.[/color]
There are people who are not being loved and helped and taught Christ in our communities. I don't think Scripture says a solo will make a church lose its lampstand anymore than it clarifies one song/worship leader vs. more than one.

-Sonny
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Donnie
Donnie

November 8th, 2010, 3:45 pm #24

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You missed the overall point of who or what causes division as what caused the upheaval at Madison -- when the elders themselves were divided and with members leaving in droves.

Perhaps your faith is stronger than mine. But you also missed the specific point that my mind STRAYED from "do this in remembrance of my suffering and death on the cross" because the female soloist had such a very beautiful voice and performed with excellence. This was during the observance of the Lord's Supper!!![/color]
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 8th, 2010, 4:39 pm #25

There are people who are not being loved and helped and taught Christ in our communities. I don't think Scripture says a solo will make a church lose its lampstand anymore than it clarifies one song/worship leader vs. more than one.

-Sonny
While Christ taught us to love one another and teach His Gospel, I don't recall Christ ever teaching us that solos were a vital, substantial part of worship, that putting one person (or a group) on display to entertain the congregants was a part of first-century worship. Of course, the Change Movement's excuse to "justify" that is to say, "God didn't say not to," which is a man-made phrase that is not found in the New Testament.
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Dave
Dave

November 8th, 2010, 11:07 pm #26

God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to

There ya go William Crump.....just thought that I would help you out.
You are so possessed with this statement that no one but you speaks of........just thought that you might get your fill of it this way.
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Jimmy Joe
Jimmy Joe

November 9th, 2010, 12:38 am #27

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You missed the overall point of who or what causes division as what caused the upheaval at Madison -- when the elders themselves were divided and with members leaving in droves.

Perhaps your faith is stronger than mine. But you also missed the specific point that my mind STRAYED from "do this in remembrance of my suffering and death on the cross" because the female soloist had such a very beautiful voice and performed with excellence. This was during the observance of the Lord's Supper!!![/color]
Donnie
You continually use the phrase leaving in droves concerning the members that decided to leave back in '01. However, you never mention the members that returned to Madison, the new members that have been baptized or placed membership or the satellite congregation in Hendersonville with new members. I guess for you it is always easier to remain negative about Madison.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 9th, 2010, 1:52 am #28

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Jimmy Joe,

It's always good to hear from you.

I know and understand how it sounds "stressful" to certain folks to hear the expression "leaving in droves." But at the same time, it's only fair to "stress" the gravity of the situation.

I also realize that new folks have become members since the turmoil or that some have placed membership or that there is now the satellite congregation Northfield Church that has dropped [intentionally or not] the name "of Christ." [And it is now common knowledge that whenever a congregation of the church that supposedly belongs to Jesus Christ drops His name, there is a strong signal that Community Church-ism is the "flavor."]

But so far as baptisms and placing new memberships are concerned, let's not forget that these have been going on for years and years. Such are not new occurrences as the congregation grew especially during the Ira North era. Let's not forget also that while new folks come, still others leave.

When time allows me to do so, I plan to provide statistics compiled from the weekly "worship" guide of the church attendance since 2001. Unless you have them already available.

I'm not being negative. I'm simply providing information that's already available, although not compiled. Overall, we'll just have to face reality or truth even if it hurts.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 9th, 2010, 1:55 am #29

God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to
God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to, God didn't say not to

There ya go William Crump.....just thought that I would help you out.
You are so possessed with this statement that no one but you speaks of........just thought that you might get your fill of it this way.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Perhaps a good description of someone "speaking in tongues." Now, that one needs no interpreter.[/color]
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Sonny
Sonny

November 9th, 2010, 4:24 am #30

While Christ taught us to love one another and teach His Gospel, I don't recall Christ ever teaching us that solos were a vital, substantial part of worship, that putting one person (or a group) on display to entertain the congregants was a part of first-century worship. Of course, the Change Movement's excuse to "justify" that is to say, "God didn't say not to," which is a man-made phrase that is not found in the New Testament.
1. Where in Scripture does God command or specify congregational singing in the assembly?

2. Where in Scripture does God command or specify how many song/worship leaders in the assembly?

3. Where in Scripture does God command or specify there is even to be a song/worship leader in the assembly?

Readers already see where I am going with this, but I will wait patiently until these questions are answered before making the connection and discussing consistent and inconsistent interpretive methods.

Meanwhile, I would submit that instrumental worship is authorized and taught as acceptable, though perhaps not commanded in the sense that one must worship with them. Like clapping and bowing and fasting and lifting hands are not as critical or as necessary as outer expressions of worship as is what is in the heart.

-Sonny
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