501c3

501c3

Liz Porter
Liz Porter

October 7th, 2002, 3:39 am #1

hello, I have read the book about this business at Madison, and I am still rereading it. I have many many questions, but right now I want to know the actual impact of 501c3 on a church. I read that the church may not lobby or endorse candidates.What else may a church not do or have to do to qualify for this? Also is this just about tax breaks or is there funding involved here too?If a church launches cerain progrms are they to be subsidized? I read that there is a possiblity that psychological profiles gained in the entrance courses could be shared with the government. Is there any documentation or evidence that this has happened in any of the taken over churches? I have great concern about this practice even if this danger weren't there.I am greatly disturbed by all I have read here.This is indeed a social management program it seems. Does PDC or any of these other companies have actual ties to government or any of their contractors? I used to think this was all just controversy over instrumental music and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. How wrong I was. This is about packaging worship,packaging our perception of our Lord, and and packaging and the 'promotion'and 'management' of the Holy Spirit, too. Commercial packaging and promotion. Outsourcing and contracting a package and you just 'add water'. I saw that phrase at the PDC site. So church has become big business, and we just fit ourselves in to go with the program, and our worship of the Lord, and our reactions and communication with each other are observed,calibrated, manipulated, notes taken on it, measured.We are to be observed to see what techniques are most effective with us. I am filled with disgust and horror.Its tawdry and cheap. A slick commercial enterprise, that is profit driven. At first I could see how a package could reduce time and effort and offer the expertise meeded to handle a growing church.But I sense something cold here as well. It bothers me greatly and I can only imagine how the Lord sees this.I actually feel unnerved and nauseous. Thankyou for this site.
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H. Keller
H. Keller

October 7th, 2002, 2:20 pm #2

Liz,

I didn't know there was a PDC website. Were you refering to "Pacific Disaster Center?" I'm having trouble "seeing" what you are talking about.

Helen
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Joined: March 9th, 2002, 4:18 pm

October 7th, 2002, 2:46 pm #3

I think Liz is refering to "Purpose Driven Church" (Saddleback) when she uses "PDC". This is a discription used by Saddleback and their programs.

The specific issue of Church incorporation is discussed at SundaySchoolinExile.com
Click here;
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thr ... 1033994140

Liz has read and is realizing what we have been trying to tell folks for sometime. We obviously have not done an adequate job, because there are so many that either have not read this sites' links, or have and don't believe.

Liz, you are not alone! This is scary. And what's even more scary is the apathy by most people.
Last edited by ConcernedMembers on October 7th, 2002, 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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H. Keller
H. Keller

October 7th, 2002, 3:14 pm #4

Thanks for the referral. Are there churches without a purpose? From my understanding we are “called out” from the world to be different and HOLY(set apart for God). Isn’t that our purpose? I was running my fingers over the book of John and stopped at this enlightening verse.

Jn 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures, because you think you will find eternal life in them. The Scriptures tell about me, but you refuse to come to me for eternal life.

I think we need a “COME TO JESUS MEETING”

Helen
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Kevin Hamm
Kevin Hamm

October 7th, 2002, 8:14 pm #5

Cute names, Helen and Henry. Even cuter email addresses. You must know; however, that you will never be taken seriously. Although I think you already knew that.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

May 25th, 2004, 6:21 am #6

hello, I have read the book about this business at Madison, and I am still rereading it. I have many many questions, but right now I want to know the actual impact of 501c3 on a church. I read that the church may not lobby or endorse candidates.What else may a church not do or have to do to qualify for this? Also is this just about tax breaks or is there funding involved here too?If a church launches cerain progrms are they to be subsidized? I read that there is a possiblity that psychological profiles gained in the entrance courses could be shared with the government. Is there any documentation or evidence that this has happened in any of the taken over churches? I have great concern about this practice even if this danger weren't there.I am greatly disturbed by all I have read here.This is indeed a social management program it seems. Does PDC or any of these other companies have actual ties to government or any of their contractors? I used to think this was all just controversy over instrumental music and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. How wrong I was. This is about packaging worship,packaging our perception of our Lord, and and packaging and the 'promotion'and 'management' of the Holy Spirit, too. Commercial packaging and promotion. Outsourcing and contracting a package and you just 'add water'. I saw that phrase at the PDC site. So church has become big business, and we just fit ourselves in to go with the program, and our worship of the Lord, and our reactions and communication with each other are observed,calibrated, manipulated, notes taken on it, measured.We are to be observed to see what techniques are most effective with us. I am filled with disgust and horror.Its tawdry and cheap. A slick commercial enterprise, that is profit driven. At first I could see how a package could reduce time and effort and offer the expertise meeded to handle a growing church.But I sense something cold here as well. It bothers me greatly and I can only imagine how the Lord sees this.I actually feel unnerved and nauseous. Thankyou for this site.
Madison Marcher (May 19, 2004):


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<font size=4>NOTICE TO ALL MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST
MEMBERS:</font> We will have our annual corporation meeting on Wednesday,
June 2, 2004 at 6 p.m. in the Main Auditorium. Buck Dozier will be conducting
the meeting.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

May 25th, 2004, 10:57 pm #7

Donnie, I do not understand your point in posting the notice from the Elders at Madison. All 501c3 corporations are required to hold annual meetings of all members, otherwise they will lose their tax-exempt status. Most churces IGNORE this LEGAL REQUIREMENT. The alternatives to what the Madison appear to be doing is to ignore the law or choose to not be a 501c3 corporation (with the necessary result that contributions would no longer be tax deductible).

Tom
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

May 26th, 2004, 10:36 am #8

Tom,

I post at times to inform—provide statistics, repeat announcements or present certain church activities or actions that may be subject to a discussion or debate as to their validity, accuracy, appropriateness or scriptural sanction. In this case, my assumption (and also my hope) was that the title of the post itself would have clearly indicated its purpose—that the Madison Church of Christ, as a religious body, is a corporation; but why [?] … and let the discussion begin.

It’s not likely that I will have much time to discuss this issue further, but certain implications and requirements become transparent when a particular church, as a corporation, is under governmental regulations and restrictions.


FROM THE “GOSPEL PLOW” SITE:
<font color=indigo>
  • Incorporated Churches?

    A corporation is the creation of government, and subject to any and all decrees which its creator ordains. … Corporation [is an] artificial person or legal entity created by or under the authority of the laws of a state … [an] association of persons created by statute as a legal entity. (Blacks Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.)

    When a church incorporates it submits a charter to the state, which the state has the power to approve or deny. The corporate church becomes subject to the state and the state now assumes authority to review the actions of the church and all corporate officers. … Since the state is the creator of your corporate church, to whom are these corporate officers legally responsible? … Increasingly the properties of corporate churches are being seized by government agents, and the officers of corporate churches are being prosecuted, simply because they have taken politically incorrect (but biblically consistent) stands.

    Government Restrictions on the Corporate Church

    TITLE 26--INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

    Sec. 501. Exemption from tax on corporations, certain trusts, etc.
    (c) List of exempt organizations
    (3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

    By law, the 501c3 church may not:
    • preach politically incorrect sermons (propaganda)
      influence legislation
      participate in political action
      endorse candidates
      oppose candidates
      publish or distribute political positions
</font>FROM THE “ECCLESIA” FORUM:
<font color=indigo>
  • . . . Martin Luther stated, "The church must be reminded that it is neither the master nor the servant of the state, but rather the conscience of the state." … John Adams put it this way, "The church is the moral compass of society."

    . . . Most churches today are legally organized as "creatures of the State." In other words, they are State-churches. For all intents and purposes, they can only do what their government masters authorize. They have "rendered unto Caesar" what is exclusively Christ's. Somehow churches thought they needed the "privileges and benefits of the State." But there's no free lunch. The government demands something in return - the surrender of constitutionally protected rights, like freedom of speech, and even freedom of religion! The church, as D. James Kennedy asserts, has been gagged.

    Why do churches and ministries incorporate and become 501(c)3s? "Because our attorney told us we needed to," is the most common reason. Pastors and ministers have been tricked into believing that they can't function without the legal blessing of the civil government. But there's at least two sides to every story, and you have the right to know that your attorney (even if he is a Christian) probably withheld vital information from you.

    First-century Christians knew there were significant legal and theological ramifications to taking license from Caesar. This is why they never incorporated any church. The corporation originated in Roman Civil Law, 250 or more years prior to the birth of Christ. Corporations were the most ubiquitous legal entities in Roman society, used to maintain subservience and government conformance. The corporation is a "creature of the State," and "the State is the sovereign" of all corporations. For the early church to incorporate would have been a public declaration that Caesar was sovereign over Christ -- blasphemy! There is virtually no difference between modern corporations and those used by ancient Rome.
</font>
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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

May 26th, 2004, 1:24 pm #9

Donnie, thanks for your response. I am not familiar with the laws of Tennessee, but the vast majority of states REQUIRE by STATE LAW that churches be incorporated. Otherwise, they will lose their tax exempt status. This would apply to deductions for contributions as well as exemption from property taxes on church on property, both real and personal.

I think the intent of the legislation you mention is to prevent political activists from organizing "churches" and utilizing the accompanying exemptions for the promotion of their ideologies. In fact, I believe that I read in the most recent Christian Chronicle that a church in Houston is in trouble for holding a republican political rally at their facility.

Tom
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

May 26th, 2004, 2:09 pm #10

Tom,

I post at times to inform—provide statistics, repeat announcements or present certain church activities or actions that may be subject to a discussion or debate as to their validity, accuracy, appropriateness or scriptural sanction. In this case, my assumption (and also my hope) was that the title of the post itself would have clearly indicated its purpose—that the Madison Church of Christ, as a religious body, is a corporation; but why [?] … and let the discussion begin.

It’s not likely that I will have much time to discuss this issue further, but certain implications and requirements become transparent when a particular church, as a corporation, is under governmental regulations and restrictions.


FROM THE “GOSPEL PLOW” SITE:
<font color=indigo>
  • Incorporated Churches?

    A corporation is the creation of government, and subject to any and all decrees which its creator ordains. … Corporation [is an] artificial person or legal entity created by or under the authority of the laws of a state … [an] association of persons created by statute as a legal entity. (Blacks Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.)

    When a church incorporates it submits a charter to the state, which the state has the power to approve or deny. The corporate church becomes subject to the state and the state now assumes authority to review the actions of the church and all corporate officers. … Since the state is the creator of your corporate church, to whom are these corporate officers legally responsible? … Increasingly the properties of corporate churches are being seized by government agents, and the officers of corporate churches are being prosecuted, simply because they have taken politically incorrect (but biblically consistent) stands.

    Government Restrictions on the Corporate Church

    TITLE 26--INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

    Sec. 501. Exemption from tax on corporations, certain trusts, etc.
    (c) List of exempt organizations
    (3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

    By law, the 501c3 church may not:
    • preach politically incorrect sermons (propaganda)
      influence legislation
      participate in political action
      endorse candidates
      oppose candidates
      publish or distribute political positions
</font>FROM THE “ECCLESIA” FORUM:
<font color=indigo>
  • . . . Martin Luther stated, "The church must be reminded that it is neither the master nor the servant of the state, but rather the conscience of the state." … John Adams put it this way, "The church is the moral compass of society."

    . . . Most churches today are legally organized as "creatures of the State." In other words, they are State-churches. For all intents and purposes, they can only do what their government masters authorize. They have "rendered unto Caesar" what is exclusively Christ's. Somehow churches thought they needed the "privileges and benefits of the State." But there's no free lunch. The government demands something in return - the surrender of constitutionally protected rights, like freedom of speech, and even freedom of religion! The church, as D. James Kennedy asserts, has been gagged.

    Why do churches and ministries incorporate and become 501(c)3s? "Because our attorney told us we needed to," is the most common reason. Pastors and ministers have been tricked into believing that they can't function without the legal blessing of the civil government. But there's at least two sides to every story, and you have the right to know that your attorney (even if he is a Christian) probably withheld vital information from you.

    First-century Christians knew there were significant legal and theological ramifications to taking license from Caesar. This is why they never incorporated any church. The corporation originated in Roman Civil Law, 250 or more years prior to the birth of Christ. Corporations were the most ubiquitous legal entities in Roman society, used to maintain subservience and government conformance. The corporation is a "creature of the State," and "the State is the sovereign" of all corporations. For the early church to incorporate would have been a public declaration that Caesar was sovereign over Christ -- blasphemy! There is virtually no difference between modern corporations and those used by ancient Rome.
</font>
My old church in Seattle tried to slip in new bylaws: said that to forbid instruments was SECTARIAN and could bring down liabilities on the heads of the members. Of course, this was using the LAW to destroy the old bylaws so they could organize their "third service" in the evening under female domination and which sounds like witchcraft.

The Purpose Driven Cult warns (somewhere in Donnie's material) that, in my words, "as soon as you have stolen the church property, move or build more space, change the name, and rewrite the bylaws to keep the ROBBED from becomming ATTACKERS to steal the property back from the burglers."

You need to discover if there are any bylaws--there probably a Creed in the Deed to provent musical bandits from moving in. Next, you need to make sure that the "audience" gets a chance to read the NEW bylaws and make comments. Otherwise, they will just be bulldozed into voting for the troublers and you might discover, as in Seattle, that instruments are now allowable. Calvin noted that a heresy does not become right by time but who reads.

Ken
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