CondorTalon
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Joined: May 3rd, 2011, 8:14 pm

June 25th, 2013, 9:18 pm #231

Cassidy had pushed David twice: once when she tripped, and the other to save herself after she was in the process of falling. Regardless of whether or not there was intent or action behind it, the fact remains that Cassidy is responsible for David's death, and is directly the reason he fell and died.

He didn't fall off the balcony, he was pushed. Would the announcements state that he'd been pushed and not tell who the killer was, even if it had been an accident? Would we have to discount any accidental gun discharge that ended up killing someone as well?
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Emprexx Plush
Mr. Danya
Joined: June 26th, 2011, 8:09 pm

June 25th, 2013, 9:55 pm #232

CondorTalon wrote:Would the announcements state that he'd been pushed and not tell who the killer was, even if it had been an accident? Would we have to discount any accidental gun discharge that ended up killing someone as well?
This is the part that makes the case for me. In my(admittedly highly subjective) opinion, this seems like the sort of situation that the terrorists would twist to fuel the game. If the announcements would list Cassidy as the killer(and I can't think of a good thematic reason why they wouldn't), it feels like David's wiki page should as well.
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MurderWeasel
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Joined: February 18th, 2009, 7:01 am

June 26th, 2013, 5:06 am #233

Basically, the problem I have here is that it's an awkward line. If a character tripped down the stairs, bumped into someone at the bottom, and that person fell and hit their head on concrete and died, would that be the one killing the other? I don't think so, and this is exactly the same situation except with a more dramatic fall at the end.
wrote:He didn't fall off the balcony, he was pushed. Would the announcements state that he'd been pushed and not tell who the killer was, even if it had been an accident? Would we have to discount any accidental gun discharge that ended up killing someone as well?
The issue here is the physics. Cassidy didn't push David until she had to push off him to survive; that means that both were already falling off, and that, with no action taken, the only difference would have been two deaths instead of one. If it was any other situation, then pushing off of David would not have caused him to fall. At that point, Cassidy's actions had no effect on whether he lived or died, so only the initial tripping contributed to his death.

As to gun discharges, it depends. If someone pointed a gun and pulled the trigger, then yes, that's them killing someone else. If, though, someone were to pull the trigger, have nothing happen, then set the gun down and ten minutes later it killed someone else when it went off due to hangfire, I don't see how that could be credibly counted as anyone doing the killing.
wrote:This is the part that makes the case for me. In my(admittedly highly subjective) opinion, this seems like the sort of situation that the terrorists would twist to fuel the game. If the announcements would list Cassidy as the killer(and I can't think of a good thematic reason why they wouldn't), it feels like David's wiki page should as well.
The reason I don't think that would be the case here is due to Brock in V4. For those who aren't familiar with the situation, Brock was tied up, with a shotgun stuck in his mouth, so that the only thing he could do was pull the trigger, which he then did. It was a situation in which one person very clearly set him up to die, performed every action short of actually pulling the trigger, yet was not named or credited on that technicality ("Brock Mason finally found a gun that he could operate... although too bad for him it was pointing in the wrong direction.). In this case, as I mentioned above, it's the equivalent of bumping into someone who then falls over and hits their head on the edge of a desk. It just seems incredibly weird to credit it when it's no more direct than that. In the case of weapon misfires and misuse, there was some intent/action taken in the aiming of the weapon; if, on the other hand, someone fell over and the gun in their backpack went off, I don't think that would be credited.

As to the wiki reflecting the announcements, that's not the typical way it's been handled (see: Harry Tsai, who was announced as being killed by a booby trap when he was instead killed by one of his victims) and all the stuff regarding the V3 and V4 escapes. In general, I'm not a fan of having information on the Wiki that is not correct, because it's an OOC resource and compromising that for IC reasons is not a user-friendly choice.

It seems, to me, that the entire purpose behind the "Suicides/Accidents/Collar detonations:" section is to account for edge cases, which this fits into.
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Un-Persona
Mr. Danya
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 2:09 am

June 26th, 2013, 6:10 am #234

I may be getting where you're at, but some things need further clarification.
wrote:The issue here is the physics. Cassidy didn't push David until she had to push off him to survive; that means that both were already falling off, and that, with no action taken, the only difference would have been two deaths instead of one. If it was any other situation, then pushing off of David would not have caused him to fall. At that point, Cassidy's actions had no effect on whether he lived or died, so only the initial tripping contributed to his death.
This is all true. I'm not sure how it lessens anything when we say that Cassidy being the direct cause of David's death.
wrote:The reason I don't think that would be the case here is due to Brock in V4. For those who aren't familiar with the situation, Brock was tied up, with a shotgun stuck in his mouth, so that the only thing he could do was pull the trigger, which he then did. It was a situation in which one person very clearly set him up to die, performed every action short of actually pulling the trigger, yet was not named or credited on that technicality ("Brock Mason finally found a gun that he could operate... although too bad for him it was pointing in the wrong direction.). In this case, as I mentioned above, it's the equivalent of bumping into someone who then falls over and hits their head on the edge of a desk. It just seems incredibly weird to credit it when it's no more direct than that. In the case of weapon misfires and misuse, there was some intent/action taken in the aiming of the weapon; if, on the other hand, someone fell over and the gun in their backpack went off, I don't think that would be credited.
But David's death is much more direct than those. It's not an elaborate trap set up by an outside force or a contrived accident, it's a situation of A pushing B off a high building.

That Brady Bunch quote still applies too.
wrote:As to the wiki reflecting the announcements, that's not the typical way it's been handled (see: Harry Tsai, who was announced as being killed by a booby trap when he was instead killed by one of his victims) and all the stuff regarding the V3 and V4 escapes. In general, I'm not a fan of having information on the Wiki that is not correct, because it's an OOC resource and compromising that for IC reasons is not a user-friendly choice.
So...I'm confused. Harry was killed by a booby trap, but one of his victims killed him, so that's why it's listed that way? If that's the case, then Cassidy should at least remained mention in David's evaluation and her own.
wrote:It seems, to me, that the entire purpose behind the "Suicides/Accidents/Collar detonations:" section is to account for edge cases, which this fits into.
Right, this is definitely on the border on both sides, but I still believe it belongs on the kill side for my reasons stated.
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MurderWeasel
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Joined: February 18th, 2009, 7:01 am

June 26th, 2013, 6:32 am #235

wrote:This is all true. I'm not sure how it lessens anything when we say that Cassidy being the direct cause of David's death.
It's the stumbled-into that killed him. While that was the case, it's sorta like what I mentioned above re: tripping and bumping someone who then breaks their head on the floor or a desk. I feel like we'd never count that as a kill, but are looking at this differently because it fits a more traditional SOTF kill archetype (a fall from a high place). Take away the height and add a hard floor, and the whole situation feels very different.
wrote:But David's death is much more direct than those. It's not an elaborate trap set up by an outside force or a contrived accident, it's a situation of A pushing B off a high building.

That Brady Bunch quote still applies too.
If it was pushing, I'd be more inclined to agree, but the pushing expressly wasn't at fault; it was the falling-into that did it. And it was pretty direct; Sarah knocked Brock on the head, taped him up, and told him she was gonna kill him eventually with the trap, the question was how long it'd take. the answer was not very.
wrote:So...I'm confused. Harry was killed by a booby trap, but one of his victims killed him, so that's why it's listed that way? If that's the case, then Cassidy should at least remained mention in David's evaluation and her own.
Harry was killed by a victim. Danya lied because the victim had already been announced as dead. There was never any booby trap at all; Danya just didn't wanna let on that he'd lied. Thus, the wiki lists the truth, rather than the IC thing, as an informational resource (the death order notes the lie, but also gives the actual cause. All other cases of lying note the real causes).
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Un-Persona
Mr. Danya
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 2:09 am

June 26th, 2013, 7:12 am #236

wrote:It's the stumbled-into that killed him. While that was the case, it's sorta like what I mentioned above re: tripping and bumping someone who then breaks their head on the floor or a desk. I feel like we'd never count that as a kill, but are looking at this differently because it fits a more traditional SOTF kill archetype (a fall from a high place). Take away the height and add a hard floor, and the whole situation feels very different.
In this current case or your head-floordesk example, I still feel a mention in the evaluations and death order should be considered. It helps explain how and why they died.
wrote:If it was pushing, I'd be more inclined to agree, but the pushing expressly wasn't at fault; it was the falling-into that did it. And it was pretty direct; Sarah knocked Brock on the head, taped him up, and told him she was gonna kill him eventually with the trap, the question was how long it'd take. the answer was not very.
Right, falling into is what I meant ><. It's still the same, just replace the words. A fell into B making B fall off a high building.

Also, this never got answered: Did KK slit Kelly's neck? Reading the post, it seems like the neck was stabbed.

And Sarah is actually mentioned in Brock's evaluations, even though she didn't end up making up the final pull.
wrote:Harry was killed by a victim. Danya lied because the victim had already been announced as dead. There was never any booby trap at all; Danya just didn't wanna let on that he'd lied. Thus, the wiki lists the truth, rather than the IC thing, as an informational resource (the death order notes the lie, but also gives the actual cause. All other cases of lying note the real causes).
Oh, well that's just confusing ><. But it does help me when I say Cassidy should at the very least be mentioned, and I still feel she should be listed with the kill.
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MurderWeasel
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June 26th, 2013, 7:19 am #237

Yeah, I'm not at all opposed to mentioning the cause/noting it in evals, since more facts are never bad, I just don't think it should be treated as a kill. Others involved in accidents get mentioned all the time (and if I edited it to not do so, I was tired and wasn't thinking clearly). It just feels odd to note it as a kill when I really believe if no height was involved, folks wouldn't feel that way.

As to Kelly, I think yeah her neck got stabbed and/or slit. Maybe use slashed, since it's a nice middle-ground verb?
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Namira
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Joined: May 28th, 2007, 12:31 pm

June 26th, 2013, 10:58 am #238

While we're on wiki discussion, I've felt for a while that Maxie shouldn't be listed as Riz's killer on at least the death order and possibly his page too. My rationale is that this didn't actually happen during the game, and, albeit most people know it by know, it's kind've a huge spoiler for V3. However since I have an obvious bias, I was wondering what other people thought about this.

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MurderWeasel
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June 26th, 2013, 5:58 pm #239

I agree re: death order (since, yeah, it's not in the game). I'd leave it on his page, or if Riz's page ever gets completed move it down somewhere. Maybe add a post-game summary for kids who survived the island, since we've actually got a decent number now?
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Badb
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Joined: February 16th, 2009, 8:51 pm

July 19th, 2013, 3:52 pm #240

Please keep site/chat memes out of the wiki. They're not as funny as you think they are and fixing them is annoying.
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