The numeral declension 2-4

Joined: September 19th, 2010, 10:55 am

July 1st, 2016, 12:10 am #1

Hey, I've looked on the site : http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/numerals.html
And I've found table with numeral declension 2-4 that is rather bizarre.
It contains various forms in cases with a little sense. It goes like this :
234
Nom.-
Acc.
dva (m.-n.),
dvě (f.)
tričetyri
Gendvu (dvoh)trěh četyrěh
Dat dvěma (dvom) trěmčetyrěm
Ins dvěma (dvoma) trěmačetyrmi
Loc dvu (dvoh) trěhčetyrěh
I wonder why :
Gen. dvu (dvoh) ?
Dat. dvěma (dvom) ?
Ins. dvěma (dvoma) and trěma but četyrmi ?
Besides, what about animacy ? does it involve numerals 2-4 at all ?
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Everything looks so involuntarily random, that seems to me some kind of "the voting generator" has been involved.
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Joined: January 10th, 2007, 12:22 pm

July 28th, 2016, 7:55 am #2

Russian doesn't distinguish animacy, so it would be too complicated to use that system. Russian numerals go одного/одному/одним then двух/двум/двумя, трёх/трём/тремя, черырёх/четырём/четырмя

What are forms in other languages?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Joined: September 19th, 2010, 10:55 am

July 29th, 2016, 9:59 am #3

wrote:Russian doesn't distinguish animacy, so it would be too complicated to use that system.
So how they say in Russian :
I see two / three / four men
I see two / three / four girls
I see two / three / four dogs
?
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pi?em slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynami ... onary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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Joined: January 10th, 2007, 12:22 pm

July 29th, 2016, 5:47 pm #4

Я вижу трёх мужчин
Я вижу трёх женщин
Я вижу трёх собак
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Joined: September 19th, 2010, 10:55 am

August 1st, 2016, 8:26 am #5

So you see : трёх is a Gen. plur. form in Acc. plur. Doesn't mean there's some animacy in Russian yet ?
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pi?em slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynami ... onary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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Joined: September 19th, 2010, 10:55 am

August 2nd, 2016, 11:40 am #6

iopq wrote:What are forms in other languages?
In UpperSorbian there's no animacy, but there is personality instead :
234
masculinefeminine + neuter
Nom.dwajdwětři / třo*štyri / štyrjo*
Gen.dwejutřochštyrjoch
Dativedwěmajtřomštyrjom
Acc.dwaj / dweju*dwětři / třoch*štyri / štyrjoch*
Instr.(z) dwěmaj(z) třomi(ze) štyrjomi
Loc.(wo) dwěmaj(wo) třoch(wo) štyrjoch
* -- refers to male persons
The same way as dwaj / dwě for 'two' declines wobaj (m.) / wobě (f. + n.) for 'both'.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pi?em slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynami ... onary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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Joined: September 19th, 2010, 10:55 am

August 2nd, 2016, 12:02 pm #7

In Slovak :
234
masculinefeminine + neuter
Nom.dvaja* / dva dvetraja* / trištyria* / štyri
Gen.dvochtrochštyroch
Dat.dvomtromštyrom
Acc.dvoch* / dvadvetroch* / trištyroch* / štyri
Instr.(s) dvoma(s) troma / tromi (so) štyrmi
Loc.(o) dvoch(o) troch(o) štyroch
* -- refers to male persons
The same way as dvaja / dva / dve for 'two' declines obidvaja / obidva / obidve ( or obaja / oba / obe) for 'both'.

In Polish :
234
masculine + neuter feminine
Nom.dwaj* / dwa dwietrzej* / trzyczterej* / cztery
Gen.dwu / dwóchtrzechczterech
Dat.dwu / dwómtrzemczterem
Acc.dwu* / dwóch* / dwadwietrzech* / trzyczterech* / cztery
Instr.(z) dwoma(z) dwiema(z) trzema(z) czterema
Loc.(o) dwu / dwóch (o) trzech(o) czterech
* -- refers to male persons
The same way as dwaj / dwa / dwie for 'two' declines obydwaj / obydwa / obydwie ( or obaj / oba / obie) for 'both' ( exception : forms obóch, obóm are not in use nowadays )
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pi?em slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynami ... onary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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Joined: January 10th, 2007, 12:22 pm

August 2nd, 2016, 12:47 pm #8

bandziol20 wrote:So you see : трёх is a Gen. plur. form in Acc. plur. Doesn't mean there's some animacy in Russian yet ?
Oh, that's what you meant, yeah, using gen. pl. is still mandatory, I thought there might have been some special form in Polish
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Joined: November 27th, 2008, 3:38 pm

August 3rd, 2016, 7:50 pm #9

I recall we spent a lot of time on the number system way back when.
That discussion / thread should still be in these ZetaBoards somewhere ....

(Češč - Pozdrav! Ako vse!)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MED?USLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
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Joined: September 19th, 2010, 10:55 am

August 4th, 2016, 10:59 am #10

I suppose it could be about numerals but on a different issue.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pi?em slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynami ... onary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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