Peach, Carrot

Joined: 3:38 PM - Nov 27, 2008

4:24 PM - Oct 06, 2010 #1

IJzeren Jan wrote:
wrote:
wrote:peach - breskva
All languages have the word "Persian" here, in various stages of mutilation: R persik, U-B persik, P brjoskvinja, Cz broskev, Slovak broskinja, Ser b(r)eskva, Sloven breskev, Bul praskova, Mac praska. The result of voting is proska.
This is an interesting one! You know, I took the vote as well, and my conclusion was breskva!
But, I have to admit: my Polish-Ukrainian dictionary gives "breskynja", while "persyk" seems indeed to be much more common. So let's take a look again:
RU - persik
BE - persik
UK - persyk
PL - brzoskwinia
CZ - broskev
SK - broskynja
SL - breskev
BCMS - breskva
MK - praska
BG - praskova
If we start dismounting the word, this is what we get:
1. First letter: p 3, b 3
2. -rV- 4, -Vr- 2
3. The vowel in 2: e 3, a 1, o 1, jo 1
4: -s(i)k-: -sk- 4, -sik 2
5: -v-? Yes 3, no 3
6: Final -a? Yes 3, no 3
7: Gender: f. 4, m. 2
Considerations:
1. Pres- is easier than pros- for both the bres- guys and the pers- guys (3 votes), equally good for the pras- guys (1 vote).
2. Polish brzoskwinia is a perfectly regular reflex of persica vinea, the o being the result of Polish umlaut (like berza > brzoza). It would have been a different story if Polish had had *broskwinia, but brzos- is more a vote for bres- than for bros-.
3. -v- happens in half of the votes. It is easier to think something out than to think something in, so in cases like this I'd rather keep it.
4. Keeping it without -a would make it one of those inconvenient words like krov, merkov etc. Better add -a like PL/SK/BCMS and BG do.

Based on the above, I suggest PRESKVA. It is IMO the best compromise.
PEACH

Dictionary still shows "breskva"
vs "PRESKVA"

Maybe put on your "TO-DO LIST" for change? .....
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MED?USLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: 6:44 AM - Jan 10, 2009

5:03 PM - Oct 06, 2010 #2

"Preskva? What the hell does that mean?" - I'd have thought if I saw this word for the first time without yours explanation =)

If you like this frankenshteinish way, why not "presikva" or something? It has "sik" cluster in it as well as "preskva" has "v". Anyway, preskva is not understandable for Russian, if he doesn't already know "breskva". Anyway, i don't like presikva or preska or whatever obtained in such a way.
Vi?la matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: 3:38 PM - Nov 27, 2008

5:47 PM - Oct 06, 2010 #3

gossips wrote:"Preskva? What the hell does that mean?" - I'd have thought if I saw this word for the first time without yours explanation =)

If you like this frankenshteinish way, why not "presikva" or something? It has "sik" cluster in it as well as "preskva" has "v". Anyway, preskva is not understandable for Russian, if he doesn't already know "breskva". Anyway, i don't like presikva or preska or whatever obtained in such a way.
Gossips,
Jan offers the argument above for "preskva"

Do you have an argument counter to that other than "...i don't like presikva or preska or whatever obtained in such a way?"

Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MED?USLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: 9:20 PM - Oct 23, 2007

6:15 PM - Oct 06, 2010 #4

Right. Personally, I'm not a fan of Frankensteinian words or something, but here we have a case of one word choosing a different direction in virtually every language. In such a situation, we don't really have another option than picking some kind of middle solution. "Preskva" is of course not the only possible solution, but I'd say it's as close as you can get to the prototype, run through the regular Slovianski sound changes (which is also what most natlangs do). F.ex. b- is obviously an innovation.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to? bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: 6:44 AM - Jan 10, 2009

6:51 PM - Oct 06, 2010 #5

That your new way of word construction is very strange, making a word by a voting for every single letter does not lead to the homogenization of the word for its better understandability, it leads to the creation of such mutants as this preska (i still can't even understand, why there was -v- included, when it shouldn't). And i think, it rather will greatly reduce recognition and understanding of this word by any of those, who are around this middle solution.
wrote: but here we have a case of one word choosing a different direction in virtually every language.
Then we just should not use it. Like with any other word, which differs from lang to lang. We can use adoption instead from Latin, Greek, English or even German. Or we can cut some votes. If we would cut East, we'll probable get smth like "broskva"; West - "presik"; South - "perskev". Last two I can understand, the first one i can learn, and none of it looks so unnatural, as preskva.

Vi?la matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: 6:44 AM - Jan 10, 2009

7:18 PM - Oct 06, 2010 #6

wrote:and none of it looks so unnatural, as preskva.
Well, perskev is really strange too... Damn.
Vi?la matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: 3:33 PM - Dec 14, 2009

12:47 AM - Oct 07, 2010 #7

Breska?
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: 9:20 PM - Oct 23, 2007

1:29 AM - Oct 07, 2010 #8

gossips wrote:Or we can cut some votes. If we would cut East, we'll probable get smth like "broskva"; West - "presik"; South - "perskev". Last two I can understand, the first one i can learn, and none of it looks so unnatural, as preskva.
The funny thing is, if you merge those three, you'd end up with "preskva" anyway.

Honestly, I can't see why "preskva" would look unnatural, while "breskva" is perfectly natural. Sure, you can kick out the "v" and have preska, but let me assure you that for a Pole, the "v" is quite essential for making the whole thing understandable. Like I said, I'm not a big fan of this approach either, but I'm afraid that in this case all the alternatives are even worse.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to? bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: 6:44 AM - Jan 10, 2009

10:06 AM - Oct 07, 2010 #9

wrote:but let me assure you that for a Pole, the "v" is quite essential for making the whole thing understandable.
Vice versa for a Russian (and probably for every other East Slav). But even "preska" is too strange to be recognized as "персик" immediately, and if I see -v- here, it becomes almost impossible. So if you want to make this world more understandable not only for BCS+SL speakers, you may cut East from this voting, because, I think, "preskva" or "broskva" are equal for us, we have to learn it =(
wrote:Breska?
2wannabeme: quite fair, if we count Ukrainian archaic брескиня too, but the problem with its understandability is still here.
Vi?la matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: 3:33 PM - Dec 14, 2009

11:03 AM - Oct 07, 2010 #10

Well, if we take breskinja at least Ukrainians are going to know what it means and maybe a lot of Russians who live in Ukraina. I am shure that other Slavs would understand breskinja too.
But I dont like preska nor preskva not anything with p. It is clear that heare we cannot increase the understandability for Russians not decreasing it for other Slavs.
Besides this word is nothing special, we have a sea of such words that southslavs will have to learn.
So best choise in my opinion, breskva or breskinja to maximize the field of understability to Ukraine.
Quote
Like
Share