IZVĚSTIJA

Joined: November 27th, 2008, 3:38 pm

February 6th, 2014, 6:11 pm #1

Below is a 27 January 2014 article written by "Gvezdoslav" from www.Izviestija.INFO
What, if any, word-forms used, would you like to comment on?
My first comment: The writer chose to use the "vy-" prefix (versus the "iz-" prefix), which is a "Northern" Slavic flavourisation.

Then we have:
EN: ---------- sight, smell, touch, hearing
ARTICLE: ---- zrak, čuch, dotyk, sluch
RU: ---------- зрение, обоняние, осязание, слух
BE: ---------- зрок, нюх, дотык, слых
UK: ---------- зір, нюх, дотик, слух
PL: ---------- wzrok, węch, dotyk, słuch
CS: ---------- zrak, vůně/čich, dotek, sluch
SK: ---------- zrak, čuch, dotyk, sluch
SL: ---------- pogled, voh, dotik, sluh
_____SL: ---------- zrak = air
HR: ---------- vid/pogled, nujh, dodir, sluh
BG: ---------- поглед/зрение, миризма, допир, слух

The article obviously favours SLOVAK for its base flavourisation.
What word-forms should we use for Interslavic?

Govor o legalizaciji travy
Written by Gvezdoslav on 27 January 2014. Kategorija veselije

Ljubju travu. Ljubju, kako voni. Ljubju, kako vygledaje. Ljubju, kako jej mogu dotykati se prstami. Ljubju, kako trava posobi veĺmi lepo i prijemno na vše smysly – zrak, čuh, dotyk, sluh i nekogda i huť, kogda jemo kolače, vo ktoryh je zapečeno THC. Za svoje mneńja ne stydžu se, nest začto stydeti se, jesm zaljubnym paličem. Na trave ne možno nalezti ničto zlogo, krome večnyh najezdov na hladnice i vše, čto daje se sjesti. No tuta činnosť k tomu prosto naleži. Iz paličev travy nestavajut se leni ljudi, ktori by vmesto raboty večno sedeli v dome i palili. Mnogo znajemyh osobnostej, tj. igralcev, naučnikov, pisatelev i daĺših umetnikov, dokońca i politikov, ktori sut kurili ili travu dodneś kuret, ne zdaje se, že by byli leni i nerabotajuči.

Naopaky, sut to veĺmi tvorivi ljudi, ktori pojet se svojeju rabotoju do spoločnosti. Trava takože ne ubijaje ljudej. Nikto ne je umrel na predavkovańje travoju. Trava ne posobi škodu na mozgu. Trava ne snižuje povrhnju testosterona. Trava ne ovplyvnjaje pameť. Kontroverzne studije, ktore je byle i sut sdelane večinstvo časa na malpah, ne potvrdžujut, ničto takogo, nijaki podobny efekt. Trava, togda kanabinojdy, imaje mnogo dobryh učinkov za telo. V lekaŕstvu uživaje se za različne masti, leki protiv bljuťju, bolju, raku i daĺšim hvorobam. Človek ne trebuje lekarja k predepsańju lekov obsegujučih lekaŕske konopje, može si ju v dome sam pestovati i bez lekaśkogo dozora aplikovati dlja vlastnogo uvažeńja. Jedina več, ktora dala by se trave vytknuti je to, že za požadovany efekt treba paliti rastlinu i nasledno vdehnuti dym. Vdehovańje jakojkoli supstancije, ktora se pali, je škodlive. No v dnešnoj dobe imajemo vaporizery, u kteryh ne grozi, že by človek treboval vdehovati nejaki dym. S istinoju možemo skazati, že konopje či trava i jej uživańje je naprosto neškodna je neškodna rastlina. Vše stereotypy o kurjakah travy i o nej samotne sut juž sborene.

No ješče je ljuďami 21-ogo stoleťja považovana za opasnoju supstanciju? Pytaju se začto? Politiki i zakony, ktore tvoret, zakazujut pod groźboju vezeńja ili penežnoj kary nekomu predavati, kupovati, pestovati či dokońca vlastniti jakekoli množstvo konopja! Zakazujut „obyčajnym“ ljuďam lečiti se, baviti i uživati si života. Nektori ljudi i ih teorije kažut, že za tym stoji loby lekaŕskyh korporacijej, ktore si ne želajut, da by prestale se predavati različne produkty i na ih mesto prišlo konopje. Všejaki človek by si veče-meneje konvečne hvoroby mogl lečiti sam v tišine svojego doma. Ili že konopje by vyredilo iz igry paperovy premysl. I daĺše tysuče podobnyh teorijej. Nehaju na všejakom čitatelju, čemu bude veriti. Pravdoju je, že toliko ve dvuh zemjah sveta je konopje izcela legalno – v Pakistane i Urugvaji. V ostalnyh zemjah sveta je konopje ili plno ilegalno ili čestečno legalno. My demonizujemo neškodnoju rastlinu, večinstvo ljudej mysli si v neznalosti, že iz ljudej, ktori palet, stavajut se leni ljudi, že paleńjem travy bude človek glupejši i dokońca, že paliči mogut skońčiti jako zavislaki na heroinu. Ne divju se, že je v mnogo zemjah ilegalna. Neznali ljudi prosto imajut z konopja strah, boji se, že by im moglo razvratiti rodinui različne svezki. V nektoryh zemjah jako v Turkiji je karoju za upotrebeńje travy krome jednoročnogo vezeńja lečba, ktora može trvati až tri leta!
Nu v poslednoj dobe glas legalizacije vozvedaje se pomalo i isto. V grudnju prošlogo roka je v Urugvaji prošel zakon, ktory je izcela legalizoval konopje, jego kultivaciju, predavańje i upotrebeńje. V Pakistane, drugoj zemji s legalizovanym konopjem, sice jestvujut zakony protiv zneužiťju i predavańju konopja, no mestna policija je vynudžaje veĺmi izredka, bo konopje imaje v tutoj zemji silnu i dlgu tradiciju, konopje tamo često raste voĺno i bez dozora. Primer Urugvaje sut sledovale zemje SSA Kolorado i Vošington, v daĺših statah beseduje se nad legalizaciju konopja, hoť na federalnoj uravni, tj. na uravni vseh statov v SSA je konopje ilegalno. V mnogih statah sveta je konopje dekriminalizovano, tj. za kupju i upotrebeńje malogo množstva ne dostajete karu vezeńja. Jedin iz najznajemejših statov v tutom smere sut Niderlandy, kde si v glavnom grade Amsterdam možete kupiti travu na všejakom rogu. Ljudi dlja mojego mneńja konečno prozirajut i uvedomujut si, že za upotrebeńje travy ne by imeli stydeti se. Kolektivne vedomje ljudstva počinaje razumeti složitoj problematike drog i ih uživańja.

Legalizacija ne by prinesla dobro toĺko „zvyčajnym“ ljuďam. Stat s legalizaciju može vyberati dane, jako juž deje se to v Urugvaju či Kolorade. Črez tute dane može všejaki človek imeti lepše lekaŕstvo, školstvo, infrastrukturu či večše platy. Očevidno, legalizacija imaje nektore nevygody jako to, že upotrebiteĺ by ju imel brati svedomito. Ne by imel gnati samohody, lekari, požarniki i ljudi rabotajuči v podobnych otvetvah by imeli dodržavati pravidlo, že ne budut v rabote vypaleni itd. Cela spoločnost trebovala by se smeniti ot zakladov i stanoviti nove pravidla do uživańja marihuany – kogda je to dobro, kogda ne, bo vši upotrebiteli ne sut taki svedomiti i mogut ogroziti druge ljudi napr. jezdou samohodem pod vplyvom marihuany. Hoť legalizacija imaje svoje „muhi“, može nam prinesti mnogo dobrogo. Napr. juže i sam fakt, že pri srednoj davke imaje človek potrebu smati se celkovito glupym i prostym večam. Govori se, že smeh leči ljudej i prodlžaje dlgosť života. Ne je to več, za ktoru by se imele vymeniti zakony?

Gvezdoslav
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MED?USLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Joined: September 19th, 2010, 10:55 am

February 7th, 2014, 10:07 am #2

Interesting text regarding the content, not the merit. Hm... It would be worhy to consider all these lexical forms.
Adding USB : (body-senses)
sight = widźenje : Wón je we wójnje widźenje zhubił. He lost his sight in the war.
smell = čuch
touch = dótkanje ?
hearing = słuch, słyšenje
taste = słód ?
Nevertheless, I think one should distinct names of senses from names of single impressions delivered by these senses, e.g.:
The sight of her brought a smile on his face.
I felt the touch of her hand at my arm.
We've no TV and have had to settle for hearing the news on the radio.
The merest smell of fish made her feel ill.
Have a taste of this cheese to see if you like it.
*Besides, I think in many cases it's more comfortable to consider it as verbs : to see, to taste, to touch, to smell, to hear.

Back to his propositions... well, I would also choose : sluh (not : sluch) for hearing;
I think dotyk for 'touch' is quite ok (not dodir or dopir or even osěćanje); it would be good if we have also a verb : do-tykati / -tknuti or sth.
About "čuch"... well, I myself would use njuh or vuh as more specific (in Polish wąchać, coll. niuchać; usb : nuchać; hr njuhati).
But I could accept this word, the more since in Polish there is a derived, mazurized (č > c) verb form of it : cuchnąć for 'to smell bad, to stink'.
čuch is derived from čuti (as směh 'laughter' from směti se 'to laugh'); this word has a general meaning 'to feel', but in some languages has been used in a more specific meaning : 'to hear'.
For "sight" hm... I would opt for "zrak", but as you've already noticed, it collides with Southern languages. Maybe vid / videnje or pogled would be better... or "zrenje" like in Russian as more clearly derived from "zreti" would be better than "zrak". I don't know.
For "taste" hm... there's used chut' (both for sense and impression)... in Polish chuć means 'lust' and it's a loan (but I don't know whether from Czech or Ukrainian), while original chęć means only 'willingness, wish'; southern slavic have tek (which resembles a bit Polish idiom : komuś ślinka cieknie); in Polish there is smak but it's from German.

In any case, it's a very interesting problem.

The other notes about this article, I'll write later on.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pi?em slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynami ... onary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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Joined: September 19th, 2010, 10:55 am

February 7th, 2014, 12:18 pm #3

My first impression of this writing :
-- use of -'u for 1st person sing. in the present tense (e.g ljubju, pytaju se, stydžu se)
-- forms with -je in the present tense (vygledaje, ubijaje)
-- use forms with -t for 3rd person plur. in the present tense (sut, kuret ?)
-- "daje se" if ip. it should be : dava se, if pf. it's an expanded form with -je
-- use čto 'what' (e.g. ničto 'nothing', začto 'why')

-- dotykati se ( it seems a Czech / Slovak feature; in Polish only : dotykać)
-- vše (a Western Slavic feature, e.g. Polish ze wszech miar) instead of vse (Eastern / Southern)
-- nalezti (a Western Slavic lexeme, e.g. Polish znaleźć); I myself prefer najti (the Dictionary gives here hipercorrect najDti because of single Russian verb iDti 'to go')
-- krome ( kromě) prep. 'except, but; beside' (in Slovak : okrem < *okromь )
-- naleži k tomu - belongs to it; (a Western Slavic verb; btw, in the Lex I've found a mistake : naležEti (naležEm) 'to belong', while a reflexive form is ok : naležAti se (naležI se) 'to be found')

-- posobi ? (must be a local word; I don't understand it)
-- "Za svoje mneńja..." hm odd choice to me
-- nest ? ~ ne jest - there is nothing
-- "zaljubnym paličem" - sounds funny;
-- "Na trave ne možno nalezti ničto zlogo..." : "There is nothing bad that one could find on the grass."
-- stydeti se (styděti) 'to feel shame, to be ashamed', see Lex.: styd 'shame' (comp. pl wstyd, wstydzić się; hr stid, stidjeti se)
-- krome večnyh najezdov na hladnice ? don't understand
-- "Iz paličev travy nestavajut se leni ljudi" - a clumsy syntax phrase, poor lexemes, imo
-- "Mnogo znajemyh osobnostej, tj. igralcev, naučnikov, pisatelev i daĺših umetnikov, dokońca i politikov, ktori sut kurili ili travu dodneś kuret," - bad lexically and syntactically

-- use of the font ĺ ( veĺmi, daĺših) for marking soft l before consonants (lj before vowels).
>> ...
Glasovanje je &#269;ista glupos&#357;. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pi?em slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynami ... onary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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Joined: November 2nd, 2010, 10:37 pm

February 7th, 2014, 5:12 pm #4

well, propably writer is czech.

and I found.....do roboty vypaleny....very funny.
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Joined: November 27th, 2008, 3:38 pm

February 7th, 2014, 6:04 pm #5

bandziol20 wrote:Nevertheless, I think one should distinct names of senses from names of single impressions delivered by these senses
. . .
I think dotyk for 'touch' is quite ok (not dodir or dopir or even osěćanje); it would be good if we have also a verb : do-tykati / -tknuti or sth.
I concur with your comment about having "distinct names of senses..."

Re. "dotyk" (and many other word-forms): many of these are already contained within our Lexicon and/or Dictionary, and may have been discussed elsewhere in this forum.
"DOTYK" is a new addition to the Lexicon - as a noun; however, the verb form already exists: http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp?i ... e=contains
The Dictionary only contains the imperfect verb form: "dotykati" as of this date and time.


Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MED?USLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Joined: December 28th, 2013, 6:35 pm

February 8th, 2014, 10:49 am #6

Ако може бити користно, означил јесм слова ктора сут непрозрачна дља срб/хрв. Види приложеније!

Nerazumljive_re__269_i___Govor_o_legalizaciji_travy.odt (45.25 KiB)
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Joined: September 19th, 2010, 10:55 am

February 8th, 2014, 11:57 am #7

well... i was thinking about sth alike for Polish, but it's a lot of work...
This text is simply bad, but don't kid ourselves : many bad things were taken from Dict or Lex like ovplyvnuje or sth, many is a result of vain seeking in our own sources. And yeah, there are many unflavourized forms to Slovianski or simply typical Slovak words; I suppose some neologisms, perhaps comprehensible for Slovak people are not understandable for other Slavs at all.
zneužitje ? - or is it our godzilla ?
I don't mention about usual orthographic mistakes and inconsistencies (podobnych / podobnyh; ktery / ktory etc. ). We can't cover our faces beyond a nice slogans of kind : "Czech will always write as Czech and there's nothing to do about it" etc. Stop digging the hole !
A good tool to catch such inconsistencies once was linked by IJzeren Jan :
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/list_o ... words.html
It gives a list of unique words.
We could talk about it all and all, but in my view all we need it's just a slim, new, dictionary which actually will be updated.
tellur once mentioned about German-English dictionary : http://www.dict.cc/
with users' contribution. I think without it or sth alike we can't move on.
BTW : I can't open .odt files. Could you convert it to word or txt ?
Glasovanje je &#269;ista glupos&#357;. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pi?em slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynami ... onary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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Joined: December 28th, 2013, 6:35 pm

February 8th, 2014, 12:54 pm #8

I hope the highlights will be displayed correctly in rtf. By the way, a confidential information the writer is polish.
Nerazumljive_re__269_i___Govor_o_legalizaciji_travy.rtf (16.82 KiB)
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Joined: September 17th, 2011, 12:09 pm

February 8th, 2014, 1:17 pm #9

To shed some light - I wrote this article. It's just that I forgot my old identity on Izviestija and also, Gvezdoslav's my new internet and real life name, however on few forums (this included) I'll continue using my old name "tellur".

Basically, the whole article was an experiment. I didn't like the way my previous articles looked so I went for something completely new and alien to me. Even though I truly believe marihuana should be legalized, it was very hard to express my mainly Czech/German colored thinking and ideas in Interslavic. Obviously, besides some slang (palič, trava, etc), it was very hard to

To explain some of my choices -
Western Slavic flavourisation - this is very obvious in this article. I have no slightest idea how Southern languages work (their vocabulary, grammar, etc) even after two years of reading articles and stuff. I have only some very slight idea about how the Eastern languages work. But I'm pretty confident in Czech, Polish and to some extent Kashubian. I know what word choices they make. I know which words could have possible cognates in other Slavic languages etc. And the more and more I read about Slavic languages, the more and more I come to a conclusion that such complex ideas can't be really expressed in an article where every word will be understood by every Slav. It's just not possible because Slavic languages often form groups of cognates. One such group might be POL, BEL, UKR, RUS, the other CZ, SK, South, another one POL, CZ, SK, UKR, BEL, etc. It's hard for me to construct any compromise so I choose to go with Western Slavic vocabulary. So for me, to write in a Western Slavic way is very easy. Sure, it might not be totally in the Slavic middle and it might make text for a South or an East Slav harder to understand. I try to keep my grammar as neutral as possible but those words I use are often West Slavic.

Also, there are few inconsistencies like podobnych vs. podobnyh so please, highlight them to me.

ACMAXA - Could you explain please why are some highlighted words yellow? Obviously, you don't understand these red ones but what about the yellow ones?

Edit:Jesus Christ, I make a lot of mistakes both in this text and in the article.
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, sve?ego x dobrogo), soft consonants &#324;, &#314;, &#271;, &#357;, &#341;, &#283;/e merged, &#281;->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, der?ava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, &#269;uju, molvju x delajut, &#269;ujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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Joined: September 19th, 2010, 10:55 am

February 8th, 2014, 1:18 pm #10

If you want to be understandable... what could I advise ? write in Bandulica.
Of course, there are some special "southern" lexemes, but you can replace them by more "northern" or Slovianski ones. (And don't forget about Y and ě)
Reading the text of marihuana I wouldn't sure : I was thinking the writer is Polish (some parts of constructions, the way of formulating thoughts). On the other hand there occur many strange Czech-sounded lexemes, that even educate Polish wouldn't use anyway.

BTW : I can't stop amazing myself why it's so heavy what supposedly should be so simple.
Glasovanje je &#269;ista glupos&#357;. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pi?em slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynami ... onary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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