Filtration in 20.000 gal pond

Discuss Filteration And Filteration Methods.

Filtration in 20.000 gal pond

Banung
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Banung
Neonate
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 19:48

24 May 2017, 21:38 #1

Hello shark experts.
I want to ask an experienced shark keeper about filtration and water changes in my future dream pool tank.
Pool size: 50 x 17 x 4 foot. About 20.000 gal
2 or 3 Black tip sharks only. Pool will be closed.
Im inspired with this tank: David's Shark pool at King Car Aquarium

How strong filtration is needed for that setup?
How big waterchanges are needed?
Is it possible to use water from Mediterranean or Baltic Sea?
How "good" the water must be to keep sharks healthy?

Im only freshwater aquarist.
I need to get some introductory information to make a statement if this is real for me or not.

Thanks wery much
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krj-1168
Great White Shark
krj-1168
Great White Shark
Joined: 18 Dec 2006, 23:32

25 May 2017, 03:09 #2

Welcome to the board.

First off - a 50 foot x 17 foot oval, that is 4 feet deep would be at least 23,000 gallons. A truly impressive shark pond.

How strong filtration is needed for that setup?


For a system that large you still want the filtration to turn over the entire volume of the pond in about 30-40 minutes, or 1.5 to 2 times per hour. In other words a flow rate of 575-770 gallons/2,200-2,900 liters per minute. That should be enough to remove any waste fairly quickly and also keep the water well oxygenated.

How big waterchanges are needed?


With pond that size - most of water changes will be from water which is evaporated. Still you will probably need to do about 2,300 gallons/8,700 liters ever 2 weeks.

Is it possible to use water from Mediterranean or Baltic Sea?


The Mediterranean Sea - maybe. The Baltic Sea would be too cold tropical species. Even the Mediterranean would need to be warmed to about 75 F/23.9 C

How "good" the water must be to keep sharks healthy?


Sharks generally need for the water quality to be very good - compared to other types of fishes.

Salinity - 1.020-1.025 SG
Temperature - 74-81 F/23.3-27.2 C (for tropical species)
pH - 7.8-8.4
Ammonia - 0.00 ppm
Nitrites - 0.00 ppm
Nitrates - less than 100.00 ppm

Virtually no trace metals

Im only freshwater aquarist.
I need to get some introductory information to make a statement if this is real for me or not.


Well - as a freshwater aquarist - have you looked into the freshwater Stingrays of South America? They are freshwater species of rays - but would be a good introduction species for a freshwater aquarist who want to get into the keeping Elasmobranchs (Sharks, Skates, & rays).

Still with out knowing much about you personally - I will saying keeping tropical swimming sharks like the Blacktip Reefs is very possible and realistic. But is best looked an Ultimate Goal. IF you have the room/space, finances, & most importantly THE EXPERIENCE needed to keep these sharks.

Still I would never recommend any aquarist who does not have experience keeping sharks starting with active swimming species such as the Blacktip Reef. Although they are one of the hardiest, and easiest to keep of the ORV(Obligated Ram Ventilating) requiem sharks. They are still best keep by shark aquarists who have several years of experience in keeping elasmobranch systems.

Instead the best introductory species for the first time shark aquarist is one of the smaller, benthic species - like the bamboos, epaulettes, and catsharks. These sharks are small, in size, and are some of the easiest sharks to keep. Most of these sharks are only2-4 feet in length. And can be kept in ponds or aquariums ranging from 200-1,000 gallons depending on the species.
Bigger is Better - especially with shark tanks
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Banung
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Banung
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Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 19:48

25 May 2017, 08:19 #3

Thanks for wery useful reply.

1) We use metric system - so thats difference between dimensions and volume. Lets stay by 20.000 galons

2) Good news for me, is that water filtration neednt to be so strong as I expected

3) Bad news is the water change. You have written in other post, that for large pools, 10% or less per month is enough.

What does it depend on 1) amount of fish in the pool 2) amount of the water 3) power of the filtration. I think all, but if you can explain little bit more.

Why Im asking:
Most of the public aquarium use sea water. Im about 500 km from sea water. (Baltic)
If the baltic water need only to warm up. One way per month for about 7 m3 of water of my employee seems to be mor economic, than complicated systems for creating water from fresh water.
I´m wrong?

Water temperature. It depends, where the Shark is comming from?
I found 20 - 27 C. Somewhere from 15C

I absolutely agree with you about experience. I need make a statement, if that is achievable for me and then start step by step.

Thanks wery much
Petr
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krj-1168
Great White Shark
krj-1168
Great White Shark
Joined: 18 Dec 2006, 23:32

26 May 2017, 04:30 #4

Welcome, Petr

1) We use metric system - so thats difference between dimensions and volume. Lets stay by 20.000 galons.


The metric system/U.S. conversions are fairly easy and consistent. Both systems are able to define the length, width, height. mass and total water volume equally well..

What makes a bigger difference is the shape of the tank/pond. In a 20,000+ gallon/75,700+ liter tank or pond the exact volume of the may vary by 2,000-3,000 gallons/7,570-11,360 liters depending on the exact shape of the tank or pond.

2) Good news for me, is that water filtration neednt to be so strong as I expected.


Well -generally speaking with large systems - the filtration rates don't need to be a strong. The reason is when systems reach more than 10,000 gallons/ 37,900+ liters - they start to almost function like small oceans. They are incredible stable once they are fully cycled.


3) Bad news is the water change. You have written in other post, that for large pools, 10% or less per month is enough.


I know it sounds confusing. On a large system - like the one we are discussing - your are likely going to lose at least 5% of the water volume every two weeks due to evaporation. That is at least 10% per month. There for in terms of actual water change(replacing old salt water with new salt water) - you will likely only need to do 5-10% per month.

What does it depend on 1) amount of fish in the pool 2) amount of the water 3) power of the filtration. I think all, but if you can explain little bit more.


You are right that all 3 are factors.
1.) In terms of fishes in the pool - it is the amount of fishes. But also the size and type. In this case - we are talking about good sized(5-6 foot/1.5-1.8 meter) sharks. And sharks are very messy fishes - making for a very high bio load on the filtration system.
2.) The amount of water volume is also key. As I have explain - the larger the total volume the more stable the system is in terms of water quality.
3.) The power of the Filtration is key for water flow and oxygenation. But equal important is the type of filtration. For a large system with large sharks - you need good sized protein skimmer/foam fractionator, with biological(live sand, live rock, etc) & mechanical filtration. Chemical filtration may be also used - if you want an addition safety net.

Why Im asking:
Most of the public aquarium use sea water. Im about 500 km from sea water. (Baltic)
If the baltic water need only to warm up. One way per month for about 7 m3 of water of my employee seems to be mor economic, than complicated systems for creating water from fresh water.
I´m wrong?



Well most public aquariums which use sea water from the ocean - are often located very close to ocean (often less than 1 km away). At 500 km (depending on the price of fuel) it is likely cheaper to buy or make your salt water than to go get it from the ocean. By buying salt in bulk/using a D.I.Y. salt mix you may be able to make a gallon of salt water for about 25 cents/~ 22 Euro per gallon/3.79 liters.

Still it is possible to warm up sea water - just any fresh water, With a heater.

Water temperature. It depends, where the Shark is comming from?
I found 20 - 27 C. Somewhere from 15C


Be very care - because the Blacktip Reef Shark (Carcharhinus melanopterus) is not the same as the Blacktip Shark (Carcharhinus limbatus).

The Blacktip Reef Shark is a species native to the tropical Indo-pacific region. Which means it needs water temperatures to be at 20 C/68F or higher. It grows to about 5.9-6.5 feet/1.8-2 meters maximum. It is a hardy species which is fairly easy to acclimate to a large private aquaria or a modest sized public aquarium

The Blacktip Shark is found in the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian oceans. it is also a sub-tropical to tropical species - but it has on rare occasions been found in cooler waters (down to 15-16 C). In addition while this species may average 5.9-6.9 feet (1.8-2.1 meters) - the species maximum is about 9 feet (2.75 meters). Also this species DOES NOT acclimate to captive very well.

I need make a statement, if that is achievable for me and then start step by step.


Is achievable for you? The best answer I can give - is possibly. Since I basically don't know much what your building(for the pond, filtration, saltwater, and sharks) budget, or your annual up keep budget is. Or what kind of space you have available to work with. But I can say - a good quality 20,000+ gallon/75,700 liter shark pond, with everything you would need - would be like buying a loaded 2017 Porsche 911 - if you paid it in full at time you bought it. And the annual upkeep on that tank would be at least equal to the annual upkeep on the 911, if not even higher.
Bigger is Better - especially with shark tanks
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Banung
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Banung
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Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 19:48

26 May 2017, 22:01 #5

Thanks again

Each your answer is worth of week of internet searching. Do you work for some public aquarium?

Im builder and run a small company and believe in good future. Starting costs are not so big issue I can cut it down by using my company. Im interested mostly in running costs.

I know almost nothing about sea water chemistry. But what I know obout creating salt water that I will need a large tank (1/3 of main tank wolume?) and a lot of technical equipment such as RO etc. This equipment has also its lifetime. So it sounds to me senseful to bring the water from the sea and avoid some part of technology. But I not insist on it...

My cost estimation is about 18 cents per gallon (fuel, car maintenance and employee) by bringing the water.

There is only temp issue with water from Baltic? What about dirty, polluted and sandy water. Do you know how public aquariums deal with this?

Do you have some recipe for „fish only salt water“?

You mentioned live sand and rocks as a biological filtration. From fresh water aquarium keeping I know that a lot of plants can replace the filter if there is not too much fish in the aquarium.
How much biological filtration work in sea water? Is it always benefit in term of water quality? On the movie I sent there is no sand and rocks…

On a large system - like the one we are discussing - your are likely going to lose at least 5% of the water volume every two weeks due to evaporation. That is at least 10% per month. There for in terms of actual water change(replacing old salt water with new salt water) - you will likely only need to do 5-10% per month.


Does it mean, that evaporation have the same effect to water quality as water change?
(I know that salt stay in)

I want also swim in the pool lets say about twice a week. (Salt water has positive effect to my health) Of course after precise shower. Does it have some significant impact on the water quality? How about the sharks. Will they be stressed or aggresive in such small pool?
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krj-1168
Great White Shark
krj-1168
Great White Shark
Joined: 18 Dec 2006, 23:32

27 May 2017, 05:21 #6

Thanks You.

Do you work for some public aquarium?


I wish. But I live too far (about 60 miles/96 km) to the nearest public aquarium. Most of my knowledge and information comes from being one of the Administrators of this board for the past 10 years. I have had the pleasure of being a part of lots of discussions with fellow shark and ray aquarists. Some of which do actually work in public aquarium settings. Plus - I have done tons of research on sharks and rays.

know almost nothing about sea water chemistry. But what I know obout creating salt water that I will need a large tank (1/3 of main tank wolume?) and a lot of technical equipment such as RO etc. This equipment has also its lifetime. So it sounds to me senseful to bring the water from the sea and avoid some part of technology. But I not insist on it...


Sea water chemistry is not too different from freshwater. The main difference is both the salinity/Specific Gravity (~1.024 vs. 1.000), & pH - (8.2 vs. 7.4) need to be higher.

There is only temp issue with water from Baltic? What about dirty, polluted and sandy water. Do you know how public aquariums deal with this?


Well most Public Aquariums that use sea water directly from a bay, sea or ocean - also tend to focus on species which are native to that area. That we the species tend to already adapted to those water conditions. There are several problems with shipping water in from a nearby ocean/sea and attempting to keep species which are not found in those waters. Yes - pollution in the water is a major concern. One of many. Filtering & heating the water may help remove some these problems. But it won't all of them. For example - did you know the salinity, pH & water chemistry varies depending on the specific ocean you are in. For example - the Baltic Sea - because of sea ice (during the winter months) has a much lower salinity than Atlantic, Pacific or Indian Oceans. The Salinity of the Baltic is about 17-20 ppt (parts per thousand), while the average salinity among the 3 major oceans is about 35 ppt. So you would still need to add salt to the water.
But the Public aquariums which are hundreds of miles or kilometers from the nearest ocean - tend to use salt water mixtures. A prime example - the Georgia Aquarium in Atlanta, Georgia (the largest in the United States) - uses about 680 metric tons/750 US tons of Sea salt mix from Instant Ocean - for water changes of the 8 million gallons the various tanks the Aquarium has.

Do you have some recipe for „fish only salt water“?


Yes - on this board.

Here is the Link below


Marine Salt Recipe

You mentioned live sand and rocks as a biological filtration. From fresh water aquarium keeping I know that a lot of plants can replace the filter if there is not too much fish in the aquarium.
How much biological filtration work in sea water? Is it always benefit in term of water quality? On the movie I sent there is no sand and rocks…


In the tank/pond not there wasn't. But often times Marine aquarists will used Sand Filters, and Sumps (with live rock and macro algae). In tanks/ponds for swimming sharks - most aquarists will leave the bottom of the tank/pond either bare(no sand) or just sand - in order to give the sharks the maximum amount of swimming room possible.
The benefits to biological filtration for saltwater systems are similar to those of freshwater. The biological filtration will help keep the Ammonia, and Nitrite levels at 0.00 ppm once the system is fully cycled, and usually your nitrates will be less than 100 ppm. With a good amount of macro algae it may be possible to get the nitrate levels to less than 40 ppm. Even though biological filtration is very important - it should not be the only filtration. Some mechanical filtration is also needed - such as pumps, skimmers, and sumps.

Does it mean, that evaporation have the same effect to water quality as water change? (I know that salt stay in)


No - the effect is not the same. Water changes generally help keep the water cleaner, by removing some the old dirty water, and replacing with cleaner new water. The process of Evaporation actually increases the salinity level of the tank/pond. So by adding freshwater - you help restore the salinity levels to their original levels .

I want also swim in the pool lets say about twice a week. (Salt water has positive effect to my health) Of course after precise shower. Does it have some significant impact on the water quality? How about the sharks. Will they be stressed or aggresive in such small pool?


Unless you are dirty(from working outdoors) or go the bathroom in the pond - a swim in the pool a couple of times a week - should not affect the water quality at all. In fact there are several aquarists which large ponds like this - who actually dive into the pond in order to clean the walls of the pond.
As for sharks being aggressive or stressed. They might be a bit stressed for first couple of weeks or so. But then with system this size they will also be able to get away from you. In fact you will likely find - that if you are at one end of the pond - they will likely be at the other. And as you move around the pond - they will also - usually keeping several feet away from you. As for being aggressive - I would suggest making sure they well feed before you enter the water. A well-feed shark will only attack if feels threatened. Which means DO NOT ever try to corner or trap them. As this will almost certain cause them to attack.
Bigger is Better - especially with shark tanks
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Banung
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Banung
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Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 19:48

27 May 2017, 07:35 #7

A do a lot of research and Im wery frustrated, how complicated is the technology arround sea water aquariums.
Meditteran sea is about 650 km from me. Its more suitable.

How fast the Blacktips grow? For example If I buy 50 cm shark how fast he reach 100 cm.

Is it possible to run aquarium based on massiv waterchanges, with some simple technology?
In short time I will have 5 gal freshwater tank...

So for some time, I can enyoy the shark and then put to some big public quarium.
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Banung
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Banung
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Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 19:48

27 May 2017, 20:34 #8

Do you know any succesful black tip reef shakr keeper?
I still wonder the size about the tank.

For example Majestic Aquariums has 20.000 liter and it is too small in my opinion.

What do you think?
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krj-1168
Great White Shark
krj-1168
Great White Shark
Joined: 18 Dec 2006, 23:32

27 May 2017, 20:46 #9

A do a lot of research and Im wery frustrated, how complicated is the technology arround sea water aquariums.
Meditteran sea is about 650 km from me. Its more suitable.


It may seem complicated - when compared with freshwater. But it is not really that complicated. Still when it comes to keeping sharks - there are a lot of saltwater books, and even aquarists who say - DO NOT even attempt to keep them. Claiming that sharks are a group which should only be kept in Public Aquariums. But most shark and ray aquarists - know this is totally false. Not only can many sharks be kept in private aquaria - some can actually be bred in private aquaria.

Well in terms of natural sea water sources - the Mediterranean Sea is certainly a much better option. If anything - the salinity in Mediterranean is similar to Nutra Sea Water - the bottled synthetic saltwater from Nature's Ocean - as they both have a salinity of 36-39 ppt (1.026-1.028 SG). The big differences is that Nature's Ocean can likely be found at your local fish shop, or even can be shipped to your front door. Instead of having to drive 650 km to get sea water.

How fast the Blacktips grow? For example If I buy 50 cm shark how fast he reach 100 cm.


About 2-4 years depending on how well it is feed.

For the care sheet - check out the link below

Blacktip Reef

I would also say this - while the Blacktip reef is a good, & hardy species of requiem shark. One of the best ORV sharks. But it is not the best requiem for aquarists. The best requiem shark is the Whitetip Reef. The reason being - unlike the Blacktip reef, the Whitetip Reef is not an obligated ram ventilator. They can literally rest on the bottom of the tank for hours. Even though they are roughly the same size as the Blacktip reef - they DO NOT require a 20,000+ gallon/75,700 liter tank/pond to keep them. It's possible to keep 2 or 3 large adults in a 8,000-9,000 gallon/30,300-34,000 liter system for life.

Here is the link to their care sheet

Whitetip Reef

Is it possible to run aquarium based on massiv waterchanges, with some simple technology?


Fairly simple - yes. But it is still more complex than a simple freshwater. For example - there are some saltwater aquarists who combine biological and mechanical filtration together so that they only have 3 items(excluding the tank/pond itself) to regularly maintain. Those usually are a Bio Tower, Sump and Sand Filter.
For example - instead Form Fractionator - you have Bio Tower. While both remove any solid - the Bio Tower has elements which allow for nitrifying bacteria to grow helping to remove the ammonia, & nitrites from the system. The Sump also combines both Biological and mechanical filtration. With one side of the some using filter pads and bio balls, and the other side having crushed coral/live rock or even macro algae. Yes - you still need a return pump. So only about 4 pieces of equipment total.

Even with this you likely won't need to top off the tank/pond (due to evaporation) and water changes more than 20% per month.

In short time I will have 5 gal freshwater tank...


Not sure what that has to do with keeping sharks. A 5 gallon freshwater tank is only good for keeping anything small fishes such as guppies, or other equally small freshwater fishes.

So for some time, I can enyoy the shark and then put to some big public quarium.


A 20,000 gallon/75,700 liter shark pond - is large enough to keep 2-3 blacktip reef sharks in it for ... their ENTIRE LIFE. An 8,000 gallon/30,000 liter system would be large enough to keep 2-3 adult Whitetip Reef Shark for their ENTIRE LIFE.

If your goal - is to only keep the sharks for a few years - then you be better off - to not even attempt to keep them. People often think the local Public aquariums will gladly take in sharks after they have out grown your tank/pond. The truth the Public Aquariums usually won't take them in, Most public Aquariums - get hundreds of calls per year - from aquarists who's fishes (not just sharks) have outgrown their tanks. The Public aquariums if they do accept them - may only take about 1 fish in 10 for their display tanks (at best). Most fishes are usually just put down/killed.
Bigger is Better - especially with shark tanks
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Banung
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Banung
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28 May 2017, 13:16 #10

I agree with you about the shark pool size.

Do you know where to buy large bags of Instant Ocenan and how much does it cost?

I did a calculation according your salt water recipe. And 1 m3 of water will cost about 28 USD in price of salt which is fairly good. Price can be cut down by bulk buy.

Some of the elements was farmaceuitc quality, most of them was "swimming pool" quality.

I could make a laboratory test of quality, but I dont beleive it will tell me everything. Some real testing would be necessary.

But still, most of the public aquarimus use Instant Ocenan as I know.

I think I should start with some salt water aquarium. My imagination is about 60 gal tank with live rock and sand. No corals. What fish do you recommend?

I want to test soils, filtration systems etc. Thats, why is the tank so small. And get some experience of course.

I think, I will have to make some as a "semi public/private tank" to cut costs down and make larger tank.

For exapmle, watching the sharks from cage or snorkling with the sharks will be wery attractive event in the Europe. Downside is obvious. Sharks will be stressed. So it must be a few persons a week maximum.
What do you think?
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