An Alarming Sales Report, but with a few Good Citizens thrown in! :>)

An Alarming Sales Report, but with a few Good Citizens thrown in! :>)

Joined: December 4th, 2008, 11:34 pm

May 4th, 2009, 5:25 am #1

First, Seiko Bellmatics, but the Scarcer 27j 4006 & 4005 models.

Some background, Bellmatics came in 2 movements, 4006 [day/date] and 4005 [date only]. 4006's are much more prevalent and they came with 3 different jewel counts, 17, 21, and 27. I've read that the relative production totals of 4006 break down as follows:
17j - 85%
27j - 10%
21j - 5%

and the 4005s [all 27j] are about equal in production figures to the 21j 4006. So by these statistics, the hardest to find are the 4005's & the 21j 4006's! I can't attest to the accuracy of those production figures, but I can say that, in my travels through net watch sales over a decade or so, I see almost no 4005s & 21j 4006s - and relatively few 27j 4006's, but a lot of 17j 4006's.

From eBay.ph [Philippines]. First, a 4006-7012 27j, not bad looking!
Went for US$105.77

http://cgi.ebay.ph/RARE-VINTAGE-SEIKO-B ... 240%3A1318

Then another 27j 4006, US$90.00

http://cgi.ebay.ph/VINTAGE-SEIKO-BELLMA ... 240%3A1318

Now, even scarcer stuff [if those production figures are correct], 4005's:

First, $67.66 for a black dialed example on strap, though w/ a much polished case & some black paint missing from the hand centers:

http://cgi.ebay.ph/SEIKO-BELL-MATIC-MEN ... 240%3A1318

Next, a white dialed version of the same model - $88.77. It's on a (possibly original, not sure) bracelet, but lots of original case texture & seemingly cleaner movement this time. The downside is a few spots on the dial:

http://cgi.ebay.ph/VERY-RARE-VINTAGE-SE ... 240%3A1318

And even a Citizen Alarm-Date coming tomorrow!

Speaking of Citizen: just ended is a rather nice Crystal 7 w/ the 33 jewel version of the movement, possibly on original bracelet & pretty clean. This is considered a mid-range Citizen of the mid/late '60s [ex. no fine adjuster on movement]. These went as high as 43j in some variants:

http://cgi.ebay.ph/CITIZEN-CRYSTAL-7-33 ... 240%3A1318

Went for $51.00. If I didn't already buy the Seiko 6218 [35j, near-GS grade mvmt] I would have tried for it. I do however, have my eye on another Seiko here in the Philippines ending in 3 days & hoping it stays "reasonable" - it's an early '60s hand-wind w/ a rather high-end movement.


===============================================


Seiko Matsuda
The Patron Saint of Seiko Collectors
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Joined: May 27th, 2008, 11:04 am

May 4th, 2009, 9:11 am #2

....I enjoy these summaries Nice to see the Bell-Matics. I would like to get one of the 4005's - I think they were only made for a year or two at the start of Bell-Matic production, and a 21j variant too of course, but they seem rarer than the proverbial hens's teeth!

Looks like a nice Citizen too - one thing I've noticed about these vintage Citizens is that the applied 'Citizen' logo on their dials, even in the same range of watches, vary in style - unlike Seiko which seem to stick with the same style (which helps to i.d. 'feikos' or redials). Here are a couple of examples of 27j and 33j Crystal Sevens I have to demonstrate:




Btw I have a vintage Citizen coming in so I'll post when received, it's from the 'Seven Star' range.

Regards,
Sweephand


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Joined: December 4th, 2008, 11:34 pm

May 4th, 2009, 8:14 pm #3

beautiful dial. Just 1 question on it - is it missing a day window frame - or is it intentionally part of the design [like on one of the Seiko 6206 models]?? See mine below:

?t=1241467779

When I was 1st interested in it, I wasn't sure if it was correct that way, but I saw pics of others of the same case style, all that way. However, there's a different model WITH the frame on both windows [& some other small differences].

And... that was a good point about the appliques on Citizen. I did not realize that!! It does tend to make things a bit trickier when trying to "validate" the dial. I guess you'll be our vintage Citizen dial Expert here :>)

===============================================


Seiko Matsuda
The Patron Saint of Seiko Collectors
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Joined: May 27th, 2008, 11:04 am

May 4th, 2009, 8:49 pm #4

...but I think, like your Seiko, that it's ok. I've seen a couple with the same kind of day window, even when there's a frame round the date window, like this one:

http://www.himawari.sakura.ne.jp/~garak ... TI-A42.htm

And I'm no expert! Just an enthusiastic amateur

Regards,
Sweephand
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Joined: May 27th, 2008, 11:04 am

May 4th, 2009, 9:04 pm #5

Coincidentally, 'Vintage Ralf' has just posted on the SCWF with a pic of his latest Crystal 7 purchase which has the same arrangement.

Cheers,
Sweephand
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Joined: May 27th, 2008, 11:04 am

May 4th, 2009, 9:08 pm #6

...but I think, like your Seiko, that it's ok. I've seen a couple with the same kind of day window, even when there's a frame round the date window, like this one:

http://www.himawari.sakura.ne.jp/~garak ... TI-A42.htm

And I'm no expert! Just an enthusiastic amateur

Regards,
Sweephand
...rectangular window rather than oval:

http://www.himawari.sakura.ne.jp/~garak ... TI-A34.htm

Cheers,
Sweephand
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Joined: December 4th, 2008, 11:34 pm

May 5th, 2009, 7:01 am #7

First, Seiko Bellmatics, but the Scarcer 27j 4006 & 4005 models.

Some background, Bellmatics came in 2 movements, 4006 [day/date] and 4005 [date only]. 4006's are much more prevalent and they came with 3 different jewel counts, 17, 21, and 27. I've read that the relative production totals of 4006 break down as follows:
17j - 85%
27j - 10%
21j - 5%

and the 4005s [all 27j] are about equal in production figures to the 21j 4006. So by these statistics, the hardest to find are the 4005's & the 21j 4006's! I can't attest to the accuracy of those production figures, but I can say that, in my travels through net watch sales over a decade or so, I see almost no 4005s & 21j 4006s - and relatively few 27j 4006's, but a lot of 17j 4006's.

From eBay.ph [Philippines]. First, a 4006-7012 27j, not bad looking!
Went for US$105.77

http://cgi.ebay.ph/RARE-VINTAGE-SEIKO-B ... 240%3A1318

Then another 27j 4006, US$90.00

http://cgi.ebay.ph/VINTAGE-SEIKO-BELLMA ... 240%3A1318

Now, even scarcer stuff [if those production figures are correct], 4005's:

First, $67.66 for a black dialed example on strap, though w/ a much polished case & some black paint missing from the hand centers:

http://cgi.ebay.ph/SEIKO-BELL-MATIC-MEN ... 240%3A1318

Next, a white dialed version of the same model - $88.77. It's on a (possibly original, not sure) bracelet, but lots of original case texture & seemingly cleaner movement this time. The downside is a few spots on the dial:

http://cgi.ebay.ph/VERY-RARE-VINTAGE-SE ... 240%3A1318

And even a Citizen Alarm-Date coming tomorrow!

Speaking of Citizen: just ended is a rather nice Crystal 7 w/ the 33 jewel version of the movement, possibly on original bracelet & pretty clean. This is considered a mid-range Citizen of the mid/late '60s [ex. no fine adjuster on movement]. These went as high as 43j in some variants:

http://cgi.ebay.ph/CITIZEN-CRYSTAL-7-33 ... 240%3A1318

Went for $51.00. If I didn't already buy the Seiko 6218 [35j, near-GS grade mvmt] I would have tried for it. I do however, have my eye on another Seiko here in the Philippines ending in 3 days & hoping it stays "reasonable" - it's an early '60s hand-wind w/ a rather high-end movement.


===============================================


Seiko Matsuda
The Patron Saint of Seiko Collectors
Went for US$66.00.

Here's the link:

http://cgi.ebay.ph/VINTAGE-MEN-S-CITIZE ... 240%3A1318


===============================================


Seiko Matsuda
The Patron Saint of Seiko Collectors
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Joined: May 27th, 2008, 11:04 am

May 5th, 2009, 10:28 am #8

...was a bit woried about the lower dial printing ('para 40m' etc), looked a bit wobbly to me! So maybe worked on?

Regards,
Sweephand



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Joined: December 4th, 2008, 11:34 pm

May 5th, 2009, 7:08 pm #9

watch on Philippine eBay - lots of redials (& other modifications) done here! On the upside, I have seen a very few really nicely preserved & seemingly "original" examples of desirable old models [Japanese & Swiss]!

I've said it other places, but I'll repeat it - a good number of watchmakers/dealers can make some good money by cobbling together pieces of various old watches [which they probably get for next to nothing] to make one "good" one, then put it up on eBay for a [usually] foreigner to buy. However, there is a strong collector community here too! You might be amazed at what "flagship" [mostly Swiss - Patek, Rolex, Pam, Girard-Perregaux, Breitling...] models are in the hands of collectors here!

Also, a lot of redials (& other restoration) on old watches are done, then they are also put up on eBay. It's not entirely surprising [the redials] - it's a tropical country: strong sun, and rather humid. So... "tropic dials" develop after years of sun exposure, humidity affects the innards [especially if seals haven't been regularly changed] & gets to the dials, etc. Remember the $31 Citizen Hi-line recently?? I hesitated on that one due to the redial + the lack of mvmt pics! If the dial needed re-doing from sun exposure, well maybe the mvmt was OK. But, if the redial was due to deterioration from moisture, well who knows what else is wrong inside!!

At any rate, the Citizen Alarms don't show up often, so I figured it was worth a look.

===============================================


Seiko Matsuda
The Patron Saint of Seiko Collectors
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Joined: May 27th, 2008, 11:04 am

May 5th, 2009, 10:03 pm #10

...the Citizen alarms are few and far between compared to the rather more sophisticated Bell-Matics. I've got a very brassed gold plated one

Interesting what you say about collectors in your part of the world, and what turns up on e-bay. As long as sellers are up-front about redials etc. it's ok as far as I'm concerned - can be a good way of getting a decent enough watch at a reasonable price, even if not for the connossieur!

Regards,
Sweephand
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