Devastated - ttc#2

Devastated - ttc#2

Anna
Anna

January 27th, 2006, 10:34 pm #1

Hi ladies. I am now 39 and have been ttc#2 for one year with no luck. Conceived #1 very easily at age 37 and I am blessed with a beautiful son who is now 22 months old.

I started doing the standard tests in October and everything came back fine except for the dreaded cd3 bloodwork which had my FSH at 15. The first dr. I was seeing only does IUIs (not IVF) and he was willing to give me a shot despite the FSH. the first round injectibles + IUI was a BFN but the second one in Dec I got a BFP only to miscarry last week at 6 weeks pg.

Anyway, I had made an appointment months ago with one of France's (I am American but live in France) top IVF doctors and I saw him yesterday and I am now absolutely devasted. I was explaining my situation, telling him about the m/c etc, but he was only interested in seeing the results of my bloodwork and when he saw it - the high FSH combined with a low anti-mullarien hormone (they take the two tests into account here to get an accurate picture of ovarian reserve, not sure if they do the same in the states) - he said "well, you won't be having any more children" - just like that - can you imagine ! he said I only had bad eggs left and that it was a waste of time to do injects cycles - it would only result in miscarriages or nothing. He said that I was lucky to have my DS. He said he would never take me for IVF unless I was willing to use DE. Well you can imagine how all that made me feel. The only thing he was willing to do was to re-do the blood work (since I had only done it once) with a different, and in his view, more reliable lab, but he thought it would just confirm the bad news.

So I am heartbroken and could not sleep last night. What I don't understand is why my other doc is letting me do IUIs if there is no chance for me. He has seen my bloodwork. Does he just want my money ? or is it just because he is less experienced than the other (the IVF doc is one of the top IVF docs in Paris and heads the IVF program and one of the best hospitals in Paris).

I keep telling myself that this doc can't know everything, but deep down I know he must be right. There is no reason for him to tell me my situation is hopeless if it isn't true. Besides, he told me that there is no IVF dr in Paris that would take me with my high FSH and I am sure that is true - there are not as many options here as there are in the states. Why do I try to keep clinging on to some hope when there isn't any and why can't I just be satisfied that i have been blessed with a beautiful son and accept that that is it for me.

I think I need to let go of my dream of 2 children and just move on but I am not sure how to ?

If anyone has advice on how to let go, I would appreciate it. thanks for letting me babble on,
Anna

PS - the nasty dr also added as i was on my way out the door that I shouldn't compare my results to the stats in the US -he said that they have a different way of measuring in the US and that if I took the test in the States my FSH would come out much higher - so you see I really am a hopeless case.
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Carolyn
Carolyn

January 28th, 2006, 12:08 am #2

Hi there - I haven't posted on this board in a long time, and just came back to check on everyone. I'm so sorry for what you're going through, and to be going through it in a foreign country would be extra tough. If it helps any, you and I are similar - I am 39 and my FSH is 14. I can't imagine they really "test it differently in the US." It's a standard test with standard measurement -- over 10 is "abnormal." You found a good board to post on, and you might consider the sister boards to this as well. The "new pregnant despite high FSH" board will show you that "hopeless cases" such as all of us seem to succeed a fair amount of the time. I am currently 19 weeks pregnant and I conceived naturally. I had a bad IVF in April and it took us longer to conceive this child than it did our first two. But it did happen; my personal belief is that as we age, and with high FSH, it takes longer for the "good egg" to show itself. I conceived the first month with my first two children which I know is exceptionally rare but it was my "normal." So to get the FSH diagnosis (not to mention severe male factor issues too), was a devastating surprise. What I have learned, in researching this a lot and going to a urology expert for my DH, is that for those of us such as you and me that have "proven fertility" (ie. your 22-month old son), things are much more in our favor than many, cranky, traditionalist RE's would admit. You will see a lot of misfortune on this board, but also a lot of success and happiness. You are in the right place - the women here and on the other sister boards know a heck of a lot more than most doctors, so feel free to post any questions you may have. And don't lose hope; I was you in March and am in a totally different place now. Nothing is a given, but there is a lot of hope. Hang in there. I studied French and have a few choice words for him......
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Joined: August 2nd, 2004, 9:44 am

January 28th, 2006, 8:12 am #3

Hi ladies. I am now 39 and have been ttc#2 for one year with no luck. Conceived #1 very easily at age 37 and I am blessed with a beautiful son who is now 22 months old.

I started doing the standard tests in October and everything came back fine except for the dreaded cd3 bloodwork which had my FSH at 15. The first dr. I was seeing only does IUIs (not IVF) and he was willing to give me a shot despite the FSH. the first round injectibles + IUI was a BFN but the second one in Dec I got a BFP only to miscarry last week at 6 weeks pg.

Anyway, I had made an appointment months ago with one of France's (I am American but live in France) top IVF doctors and I saw him yesterday and I am now absolutely devasted. I was explaining my situation, telling him about the m/c etc, but he was only interested in seeing the results of my bloodwork and when he saw it - the high FSH combined with a low anti-mullarien hormone (they take the two tests into account here to get an accurate picture of ovarian reserve, not sure if they do the same in the states) - he said "well, you won't be having any more children" - just like that - can you imagine ! he said I only had bad eggs left and that it was a waste of time to do injects cycles - it would only result in miscarriages or nothing. He said that I was lucky to have my DS. He said he would never take me for IVF unless I was willing to use DE. Well you can imagine how all that made me feel. The only thing he was willing to do was to re-do the blood work (since I had only done it once) with a different, and in his view, more reliable lab, but he thought it would just confirm the bad news.

So I am heartbroken and could not sleep last night. What I don't understand is why my other doc is letting me do IUIs if there is no chance for me. He has seen my bloodwork. Does he just want my money ? or is it just because he is less experienced than the other (the IVF doc is one of the top IVF docs in Paris and heads the IVF program and one of the best hospitals in Paris).

I keep telling myself that this doc can't know everything, but deep down I know he must be right. There is no reason for him to tell me my situation is hopeless if it isn't true. Besides, he told me that there is no IVF dr in Paris that would take me with my high FSH and I am sure that is true - there are not as many options here as there are in the states. Why do I try to keep clinging on to some hope when there isn't any and why can't I just be satisfied that i have been blessed with a beautiful son and accept that that is it for me.

I think I need to let go of my dream of 2 children and just move on but I am not sure how to ?

If anyone has advice on how to let go, I would appreciate it. thanks for letting me babble on,
Anna

PS - the nasty dr also added as i was on my way out the door that I shouldn't compare my results to the stats in the US -he said that they have a different way of measuring in the US and that if I took the test in the States my FSH would come out much higher - so you see I really am a hopeless case.
I was 38.7 with FSH 19.6 when I conceived DD via IUI with just Clomid, not even injectables, and frozen sperm with morphology issues at that. Your IUI guy is right, the "top" jerk is a jerk.

"There is no reason for him to tell me my situation is hopeless if it isn't true." Yes there is. I suspect he has a reputation as being the top guy because (apart from telling everyone he is) he maintains flawless stats by booting anyone out with FSH over 10. Many clinics in the States do this because they have to report their success stats to the CDC, so they make sure they look good by turning away even slightly challenging cases.

Did he explain to you the difference in assays/scales? What would a normal FSH be on his assay?

Anyway, details aside, you do NOT only have bad eggs left; you have eggs the quality of virtually any other 39-year-old (well, maybe a bit below average, but still within the ballpark). The high FSH simply says that if they give you injectables you are unlikely to respond well and may only produce a few follies/eggs.

Have you had an antral follicle count done? That's another useful indicator of how you might respond. But, like FSH, it tell you only about egg quantity, not quality.

Carolyn is right; the fact that you have proven fertility bodes well. Stick around; we are all in the same boat and are not ready to let go of our dreams yet. And there's no reason why we should.

Hugs,
Kiwichick

<a href="http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/kiwichick">
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Me 40.10, DH 44
Highest FSH 19.6 (8/2003); latest FSHs 9.6 (4/05), 9.7 (6/05), 12.4 (10/05), 8.5 (1/06)
DD 18 months (IUI/Clomid high FSH baby)
ttc#2 since March 2005, two failed IUIs (Clomid)
Doing acupuncture, Chinese herbs and supplements, DHEA (since 12/05), occasional wheatgrass
IVF#1 (MDL) cancelled (July 2005)
Chemical pg on a break cycle (Aug 2005)
IVF#2 BFN (Nov 2005)
Chemical pg on a break cycle (Jan 2006)
IVF#3 pushed back to about March/April?
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Jenny
Jenny

January 28th, 2006, 9:49 am #4

Hi ladies. I am now 39 and have been ttc#2 for one year with no luck. Conceived #1 very easily at age 37 and I am blessed with a beautiful son who is now 22 months old.

I started doing the standard tests in October and everything came back fine except for the dreaded cd3 bloodwork which had my FSH at 15. The first dr. I was seeing only does IUIs (not IVF) and he was willing to give me a shot despite the FSH. the first round injectibles + IUI was a BFN but the second one in Dec I got a BFP only to miscarry last week at 6 weeks pg.

Anyway, I had made an appointment months ago with one of France's (I am American but live in France) top IVF doctors and I saw him yesterday and I am now absolutely devasted. I was explaining my situation, telling him about the m/c etc, but he was only interested in seeing the results of my bloodwork and when he saw it - the high FSH combined with a low anti-mullarien hormone (they take the two tests into account here to get an accurate picture of ovarian reserve, not sure if they do the same in the states) - he said "well, you won't be having any more children" - just like that - can you imagine ! he said I only had bad eggs left and that it was a waste of time to do injects cycles - it would only result in miscarriages or nothing. He said that I was lucky to have my DS. He said he would never take me for IVF unless I was willing to use DE. Well you can imagine how all that made me feel. The only thing he was willing to do was to re-do the blood work (since I had only done it once) with a different, and in his view, more reliable lab, but he thought it would just confirm the bad news.

So I am heartbroken and could not sleep last night. What I don't understand is why my other doc is letting me do IUIs if there is no chance for me. He has seen my bloodwork. Does he just want my money ? or is it just because he is less experienced than the other (the IVF doc is one of the top IVF docs in Paris and heads the IVF program and one of the best hospitals in Paris).

I keep telling myself that this doc can't know everything, but deep down I know he must be right. There is no reason for him to tell me my situation is hopeless if it isn't true. Besides, he told me that there is no IVF dr in Paris that would take me with my high FSH and I am sure that is true - there are not as many options here as there are in the states. Why do I try to keep clinging on to some hope when there isn't any and why can't I just be satisfied that i have been blessed with a beautiful son and accept that that is it for me.

I think I need to let go of my dream of 2 children and just move on but I am not sure how to ?

If anyone has advice on how to let go, I would appreciate it. thanks for letting me babble on,
Anna

PS - the nasty dr also added as i was on my way out the door that I shouldn't compare my results to the stats in the US -he said that they have a different way of measuring in the US and that if I took the test in the States my FSH would come out much higher - so you see I really am a hopeless case.
My friend conceived at age 40, highest FSH 45. Her baby is fine. The joyous event occured on IUI attempt number 8. No stims even - she had to stop using stims after she had a skin cancer lesion removed.

So there, Dr. French-jerk.

There are at least two FSH assays, with different scales. But it seems that repeating the FSH test is for the benefit of the doctor rather than you.

IVF clinics report their stats, so many of them screen out older patients, high FSH, etc. This gaming is shameful, since IVF could especially help screen out the bad eggs via PGD.

Absent IVF, egg quality risk could be managed via CVS or amniocentesis.

If you try IUIs enough times, and there isn't a tube blockage or severe male factor, it might work as well as IVF - at least it seems to from my circle of friends. And several IUI cycles might cost less than one IVF attempt. An added bonus is the IUI doc seems like a nicer doctor.
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qfc
Joined: January 28th, 2006, 1:24 pm

January 28th, 2006, 1:36 pm #5

Hi ladies. I am now 39 and have been ttc#2 for one year with no luck. Conceived #1 very easily at age 37 and I am blessed with a beautiful son who is now 22 months old.

I started doing the standard tests in October and everything came back fine except for the dreaded cd3 bloodwork which had my FSH at 15. The first dr. I was seeing only does IUIs (not IVF) and he was willing to give me a shot despite the FSH. the first round injectibles + IUI was a BFN but the second one in Dec I got a BFP only to miscarry last week at 6 weeks pg.

Anyway, I had made an appointment months ago with one of France's (I am American but live in France) top IVF doctors and I saw him yesterday and I am now absolutely devasted. I was explaining my situation, telling him about the m/c etc, but he was only interested in seeing the results of my bloodwork and when he saw it - the high FSH combined with a low anti-mullarien hormone (they take the two tests into account here to get an accurate picture of ovarian reserve, not sure if they do the same in the states) - he said "well, you won't be having any more children" - just like that - can you imagine ! he said I only had bad eggs left and that it was a waste of time to do injects cycles - it would only result in miscarriages or nothing. He said that I was lucky to have my DS. He said he would never take me for IVF unless I was willing to use DE. Well you can imagine how all that made me feel. The only thing he was willing to do was to re-do the blood work (since I had only done it once) with a different, and in his view, more reliable lab, but he thought it would just confirm the bad news.

So I am heartbroken and could not sleep last night. What I don't understand is why my other doc is letting me do IUIs if there is no chance for me. He has seen my bloodwork. Does he just want my money ? or is it just because he is less experienced than the other (the IVF doc is one of the top IVF docs in Paris and heads the IVF program and one of the best hospitals in Paris).

I keep telling myself that this doc can't know everything, but deep down I know he must be right. There is no reason for him to tell me my situation is hopeless if it isn't true. Besides, he told me that there is no IVF dr in Paris that would take me with my high FSH and I am sure that is true - there are not as many options here as there are in the states. Why do I try to keep clinging on to some hope when there isn't any and why can't I just be satisfied that i have been blessed with a beautiful son and accept that that is it for me.

I think I need to let go of my dream of 2 children and just move on but I am not sure how to ?

If anyone has advice on how to let go, I would appreciate it. thanks for letting me babble on,
Anna

PS - the nasty dr also added as i was on my way out the door that I shouldn't compare my results to the stats in the US -he said that they have a different way of measuring in the US and that if I took the test in the States my FSH would come out much higher - so you see I really am a hopeless case.
I have just read this and in fact had just posted a new message. I also have a wonderful 2 year old and live in London (love paris by the way) and my fsh is 12.1, waiting for anti-mullerian (am dreading this) also don't appear to be ovulating at moment. I am seeing Dr Zhai in Harley Street zhaiclinic.com - she has fab results better than any ivf places and looks at these problems through tradional chinese medicine. She sees alot of long distance people. If there is nothing in Paris - think about this as I'm sure I am about to have the same result and she will definately no view it this way. I understand exactly how you are feeling. Regards. jilly
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Anna
Anna

January 28th, 2006, 8:01 pm #6

Hi ladies. I am now 39 and have been ttc#2 for one year with no luck. Conceived #1 very easily at age 37 and I am blessed with a beautiful son who is now 22 months old.

I started doing the standard tests in October and everything came back fine except for the dreaded cd3 bloodwork which had my FSH at 15. The first dr. I was seeing only does IUIs (not IVF) and he was willing to give me a shot despite the FSH. the first round injectibles + IUI was a BFN but the second one in Dec I got a BFP only to miscarry last week at 6 weeks pg.

Anyway, I had made an appointment months ago with one of France's (I am American but live in France) top IVF doctors and I saw him yesterday and I am now absolutely devasted. I was explaining my situation, telling him about the m/c etc, but he was only interested in seeing the results of my bloodwork and when he saw it - the high FSH combined with a low anti-mullarien hormone (they take the two tests into account here to get an accurate picture of ovarian reserve, not sure if they do the same in the states) - he said "well, you won't be having any more children" - just like that - can you imagine ! he said I only had bad eggs left and that it was a waste of time to do injects cycles - it would only result in miscarriages or nothing. He said that I was lucky to have my DS. He said he would never take me for IVF unless I was willing to use DE. Well you can imagine how all that made me feel. The only thing he was willing to do was to re-do the blood work (since I had only done it once) with a different, and in his view, more reliable lab, but he thought it would just confirm the bad news.

So I am heartbroken and could not sleep last night. What I don't understand is why my other doc is letting me do IUIs if there is no chance for me. He has seen my bloodwork. Does he just want my money ? or is it just because he is less experienced than the other (the IVF doc is one of the top IVF docs in Paris and heads the IVF program and one of the best hospitals in Paris).

I keep telling myself that this doc can't know everything, but deep down I know he must be right. There is no reason for him to tell me my situation is hopeless if it isn't true. Besides, he told me that there is no IVF dr in Paris that would take me with my high FSH and I am sure that is true - there are not as many options here as there are in the states. Why do I try to keep clinging on to some hope when there isn't any and why can't I just be satisfied that i have been blessed with a beautiful son and accept that that is it for me.

I think I need to let go of my dream of 2 children and just move on but I am not sure how to ?

If anyone has advice on how to let go, I would appreciate it. thanks for letting me babble on,
Anna

PS - the nasty dr also added as i was on my way out the door that I shouldn't compare my results to the stats in the US -he said that they have a different way of measuring in the US and that if I took the test in the States my FSH would come out much higher - so you see I really am a hopeless case.
well it looks like i have found the right place - many thanks for your responses ladies - you have given me the big H again (hope). I just don't want to hope in vain. Yes the French are jerks (except of course for my husband) and frankly I would much rather be in the US or UK going through this problem. Just so hard getting help here and French women never talk about their problems, so not a lot of word of mouth on IF issues.

It looks like I will be limited to IUI so I guess it is good that I have at least found a nice Dr. for that. I guess I could consider the UK if I really want to try IVF. Jilly, please do let me know how your AMH results come out and what your Dr has to say. Hope your results are better than you expect.

No, I never had an antral count done but I had good responses on both of my IUI cycles with the E2 going up to 1000 on the second one (which resulted in the m/c). I thought us high FSHers were supposed to be poor responders ?

Well now that the m/c is finishing, I have to wait for next AF before I can do anything, although my IUI Dr. thinks I should be able to do an injects round right away. I have to sort out what I want to do.

Still the harsh words of Dr. Jerk keep going through my head. Just can't believe he was so sure of himself. I would love so much to barge back into his office six months pregnant and tell him what a jerk he is !

So, I'll be hanging around this board following everyone's progress. Thanks again so much for your support.
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Joined: August 2nd, 2004, 9:44 am

January 28th, 2006, 8:37 pm #7

Do they measure E2 in pg/ml or pmol/l over there? I got so confused after moving to the States from NZ until I finally figured out they were operating on different scales! I wish the medical community would stick with one, especially since they're both metric! I have found this table incredibly useful: http://www.globalrph.com/conv_si.htm

An YES! Absolutely do make sure you swan into Dr. Jerque's office with a huge belly full of arms and legs -- and send him baby photos every year to remind him. That will be the really satisfying part of this drama.

Kiwichick

<a href="http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/kiwichick">
<img border="0" src="http://www.fertilityfriend.com/ticker/k ... c.png"></a>

Me 40.10, DH 44
Highest FSH 19.6 (8/2003); latest FSHs 9.6 (4/05), 9.7 (6/05), 12.4 (10/05), 8.5 (1/06)
DD 18 months (IUI/Clomid high FSH baby)
ttc#2 since March 2005, two failed IUIs (Clomid)
Doing acupuncture, Chinese herbs and supplements, DHEA (since 12/05), occasional wheatgrass
IVF#1 (MDL) cancelled (July 2005)
Chemical pg on a break cycle (Aug 2005)
IVF#2 BFN (Nov 2005)
Chemical pg on a break cycle (Jan 2006)
IVF#3 pushed back to about March/April?
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Anna
Anna

January 29th, 2006, 11:51 am #8

Kiwichick,

they measure E2 here in pg/ml. Is that how they measure it in the states ? Would my 1000 on the second IUI round be a 1000 in the US or less ? Yes, it would be great if they could all be on the same scale, I never know if I can compare my #s to the numbers ladies report on these boards.

When Dr. Jerque looked at my day 3 bloodwork, he said the E2 (which was 43) was normal -that was the only thing that was normal according to him.

Am still very sad. I wish I had never seen him.

I see you are on a break until March, April for IVF. Will you be doing accupunctue etc during this time. What is your vitamin regime ?

Anna
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qfc
Joined: January 28th, 2006, 1:24 pm

January 29th, 2006, 12:44 pm #9

well it looks like i have found the right place - many thanks for your responses ladies - you have given me the big H again (hope). I just don't want to hope in vain. Yes the French are jerks (except of course for my husband) and frankly I would much rather be in the US or UK going through this problem. Just so hard getting help here and French women never talk about their problems, so not a lot of word of mouth on IF issues.

It looks like I will be limited to IUI so I guess it is good that I have at least found a nice Dr. for that. I guess I could consider the UK if I really want to try IVF. Jilly, please do let me know how your AMH results come out and what your Dr has to say. Hope your results are better than you expect.

No, I never had an antral count done but I had good responses on both of my IUI cycles with the E2 going up to 1000 on the second one (which resulted in the m/c). I thought us high FSHers were supposed to be poor responders ?

Well now that the m/c is finishing, I have to wait for next AF before I can do anything, although my IUI Dr. thinks I should be able to do an injects round right away. I have to sort out what I want to do.

Still the harsh words of Dr. Jerk keep going through my head. Just can't believe he was so sure of himself. I would love so much to barge back into his office six months pregnant and tell him what a jerk he is !

So, I'll be hanging around this board following everyone's progress. Thanks again so much for your support.
anna, I will let you know - result in two weeks. Fingers crossed for you and please check out zhaiclinic.com. jilly
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Joined: August 2nd, 2004, 9:44 am

January 29th, 2006, 9:48 pm #10

Kiwichick,

they measure E2 here in pg/ml. Is that how they measure it in the states ? Would my 1000 on the second IUI round be a 1000 in the US or less ? Yes, it would be great if they could all be on the same scale, I never know if I can compare my #s to the numbers ladies report on these boards.

When Dr. Jerque looked at my day 3 bloodwork, he said the E2 (which was 43) was normal -that was the only thing that was normal according to him.

Am still very sad. I wish I had never seen him.

I see you are on a break until March, April for IVF. Will you be doing accupunctue etc during this time. What is your vitamin regime ?

Anna
I do acupuncture once a week, twice when cycling. I also take vitamins, supplements and Chinese herbs. Here's what I take ...

From my fertility naturopath:
Multivitamin
Multimineral
CoQ10 100mg
Vitamin E (200mg) with Selenium
Vitamin C 450mg
DHEA 75mg
Zinc 25mg
Flax seed oil (2-4g)
Sporadic use of wheatgrass

And Chinese herbs (from my acu):
Xue Fu Zhu Yu Wan CD1-3 to get blood flowing
Gu Ben Wan in the mornings (strengthens Xi and kidney yang)
Rehmannia Six at noon and in the evening (strengthens kidney yin)
Rehmannia Eight instead if my kidney yin is particularly strong (strengthens kidney yang), but only before O
Lonicera & Forsythia formula if I have a cold or other infection (stop everything else until it's gone)

I've been taking all these for 7 months except the DHEA, which I've been taking for two.

I know it's hard when you're stewing, but try to put Dr. Jerque out of your mind. It drains too much energy to spend time thinking about negative people like that.

Hugs,
Kiwichick
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