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supertone44
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supertone44
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Joined: 2:06 PM - Nov 12, 2016

6:45 AM - Jan 12, 2018 #161

Quantity is not the correct method of comparison here. Doing so is comparing apples to oranges. What needs to be compared is the winning percentage of private schools versus the public schools. You would need to compare the winning percentage of private schools versus three groups. Public schools in the same densely populated areas that the private school resides in, versus public schools in rural areas, and all public schools. Who has that data? I am sure the MHSAA is sitting on it.

Basketball. I graduated from Reed City High School in 1993. My senior year we met Saginaw Buena Vista in the Quarterfinals in Alma. They had 3 All Americans on their team, 2 of them went on to play in the NBA for a time. All 3 of those were recruited players. It dies happen, might not happen as often, but it does happen.

Jaylen Rose would have been recruited, but his family was so poor that it was impossible for him to go and play anywhere else than the public school in Detroit.

There are multiple variables at play. If a child is privileged enough to attend a private school, that is great. A parent has the rich to provide their child with the best education they possibly can. I believe the line should be drawn when it comes to recruiting players though. This is not College. Leave the recruiting at that level where it belongs. In the end, recruiting players is nothing more than buying your way to more victories and championships. It has no place in high school athletics.
Eagle2 wrote: There are way more private/catholic schools that don't have a winning football program than do.  Where is their advantage? The haters always point to a few catholic schools that have a rich history of football success and cry recruiting.  We all could list 4-6 public schools that have a rich history of football success and follow the same model - good coach, start them young, get all the good athletes in the school playing football, and lift weights and work hard even in the off-season.

If those private "football" schools are such great "recruiters" why do they suck at basketball where you can recruit two really good players and win immediately?

I have heard of a couple public and private schools in the Detroit area that good football players choose to attend but that has nothing to do with public vs private.  It's more about good vs crappy.  You would have a better argument with city vs rural or rich vs poor.  Public vs private is a weak argument.
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aloyouis
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aloyouis
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Joined: 9:07 AM - Jan 20, 2016

11:12 AM - Jan 12, 2018 #162

YOOPERNIB wrote:
BIGREDS89 wrote:
YOOPERNIB wrote:

No in my opinion the system is flawed and if nothing changes i'm ok with that. Some talk about going back to an A  through D championship they say that's more fair.. Why not something like that, or how it all started  UP VS LP. go back to leather helmets no pads. That would give you a true state champion. But as I have said i'm good with no changes, as in championships lets let the 14% decide. sounds fair????   

You mean the top 10 teams that comprise that 14% because out side of that the rest of that 14% ain’t doing much. And here’s the kicker snap your fingers and instantly switch them to being public schools today and if that’s the only thing that you change about them they will still be winning 5 or 10 years from now. 👍🏻
Can't see into the future but I doubt it. And remember if I could snap my fingers I'd be watching a separate tournament for the public and the private schools in 5 or 10 years or hopefully less. And just so those not aware of the history I have lived through in my time on this issue here's a little something you may or may not know about, this is from Wikipedia   ''The Michigan High School Athletic Association (MHSAA), following the release of court testimony, requested that Webber's high school, Detroit Country Day (DCD), forfeit the three state titles won with Webber in the lineup (1989–91). DCD conducted its own investigation, then called a press conference on March 2, 2004, to announce there was no "credible evidence" Webber's amateur status had been violated. When the MHSAA gave them the option of forfeiting games Webber played they decided not to. Traylor's alma mater, Murray-Wright High, forfeited its entire 1994–95 season—Traylor's senior year."  Theres your strong MHSAA coming down on a school??? Letting the school investigate itself??? And amazinglly the school finds no violations on itself?? what a joke... if you would like to see the whole article here's the web link    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universit ... ll_scandal
Everything you said after the bolded above is irrelevant.  You are demanding to change the rules in order to manufacture a trophy.  This is a stark example of what is a larger problem in the US.  You are demanding to build bigger and "better" snowflakes.  
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CWestMP
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CWestMP
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Joined: 2:07 PM - Feb 24, 2017

3:03 PM - Jan 12, 2018 #163

supertone44 wrote: Quantity is not the correct method of comparison here. Doing so is comparing apples to oranges. What needs to be compared is the winning percentage of private schools versus the public schools. You would need to compare the winning percentage of private schools versus three groups. Public schools in the same densely populated areas that the private school resides in, versus public schools in rural areas, and all public schools. Who has that data? I am sure the MHSAA is sitting on it.

Basketball. I graduated from Reed City High School in 1993. My senior year we met Saginaw Buena Vista in the Quarterfinals in Alma. They had 3 All Americans on their team, 2 of them went on to play in the NBA for a time. All 3 of those were recruited players. It dies happen, might not happen as often, but it does happen.

Jaylen Rose would have been recruited, but his family was so poor that it was impossible for him to go and play anywhere else than the public school in Detroit.

There are multiple variables at play. If a child is privileged enough to attend a private school, that is great. A parent has the rich to provide their child with the best education they possibly can. I believe the line should be drawn when it comes to recruiting players though. This is not College. Leave the recruiting at that level where it belongs. In the end, recruiting players is nothing more than buying your way to more victories and championships. It has no place in high school athletics.
Eagle2 wrote: There are way more private/catholic schools that don't have a winning football program than do.  Where is their advantage? The haters always point to a few catholic schools that have a rich history of football success and cry recruiting.  We all could list 4-6 public schools that have a rich history of football success and follow the same model - good coach, start them young, get all the good athletes in the school playing football, and lift weights and work hard even in the off-season.

If those private "football" schools are such great "recruiters" why do they suck at basketball where you can recruit two really good players and win immediately?

I have heard of a couple public and private schools in the Detroit area that good football players choose to attend but that has nothing to do with public vs private.  It's more about good vs crappy.  You would have a better argument with city vs rural or rich vs poor.  Public vs private is a weak argument.
Saginaw Buena Vista was a public school.  Not saying public schools cannot recruit but they don't help the private schools arguement and from growing up their, I can fairly say players were probably not recruited.  Plus the Saginaw area has had a good history of have good basketball players but this is because every starts playing at a young age and is coached well at that time.

Which this is my point with some of the private/public arguement.  Think of a school like Muskegon CC who is in a county with multiple good football teams.  That county is probably having kids eat, sleep and breath football.  Which is no different than some public schools (like a Mendon).  They are just ahead of the game, no advantage that can't be gained by any other school.

In addition when people talk about recruiting, it's from near by places.  So clearly MCC isn't stealing too many players because the rest of the county is during just fin in winning.  Maybe you could make the arguement with West Catholic or GRCC but they are in a metropolitan area of 1 million people. The other Grand Rapid area schools should be just fine because there are plenty of athletic to go around.  You just have to coach them up.
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everyfriday
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everyfriday
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Joined: 6:34 PM - Sep 11, 2017

8:25 PM - Feb 12, 2018 #164

8 divisions
4 Private schools won state titles
4 Public schools won titles
Zero Wing T teams won titles
seems fair to me.
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YOOPERNIB
Senior
Joined: 12:05 PM - Oct 24, 2015

9:03 PM - Feb 12, 2018 #165

everyfriday wrote: 8 divisions
4 Private schools won state titles
4 Public schools won titles
Zero Wing T teams won titles
seems fair to me.
14% wins 50% fair???
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everyfriday
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everyfriday
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Joined: 6:34 PM - Sep 11, 2017

9:12 PM - Feb 12, 2018 #166

yes, success seems to stay with many of the same schools or teams...it happens in college, it happens in the NFL and it will happen in high school. Some schools are football powers, it is culture community, kids and coaching. The same can be said for the same schools who win in basketball or wrestling or cross country or soccer or tennis. There are places that simply cultivate winning better than others period. In life 20 percent of the people do the work and make 80 percent of the worlds money. Socialism would say penalize the people who are doing all the work and having all the success. Let's not go there with high school sports.
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YOOPERNIB
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Joined: 12:05 PM - Oct 24, 2015

9:19 PM - Feb 12, 2018 #167

everyfriday wrote: yes, success seems to stay with many of the same schools or teams...it happens in college, it happens in the NFL and it will happen in high school. Some schools are football powers, it is culture community, kids and coaching. The same can be said for the same schools who win in basketball or wrestling or cross country or soccer or tennis. There are places that simply cultivate winning better than others period. In life 20 percent of the people do the work and make 80 percent of the worlds money. Socialism would say penalize the people who are doing all the work and having all the success. Let's not go there with high school sports.
So these 20% making 80% is all good and on the up and up??? Interesting...
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everyfriday
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everyfriday
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Joined: 6:34 PM - Sep 11, 2017

9:28 PM - Feb 12, 2018 #168

YOOPERNIB wrote:
everyfriday wrote: yes, success seems to stay with many of the same schools or teams...it happens in college, it happens in the NFL and it will happen in high school. Some schools are football powers, it is culture community, kids and coaching. The same can be said for the same schools who win in basketball or wrestling or cross country or soccer or tennis. There are places that simply cultivate winning better than others period. In life 20 percent of the people do the work and make 80 percent of the worlds money. Socialism would say penalize the people who are doing all the work and having all the success. Let's not go there with high school sports.
So these 20% making 80% is all good and on the up and up??? Interesting...
It is real life and that is exactly why I was rooting for Ishpeming every time they went to Ford Field and won. I knew they had built a culture for success and they had to overcome difficulty to get there and they had been tested on and off the field and they earned those wins and those titles!
 
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YOOPERNIB
Senior
Joined: 12:05 PM - Oct 24, 2015

9:44 PM - Feb 12, 2018 #169

everyfriday wrote:
YOOPERNIB wrote:
everyfriday wrote: yes, success seems to stay with many of the same schools or teams...it happens in college, it happens in the NFL and it will happen in high school. Some schools are football powers, it is culture community, kids and coaching. The same can be said for the same schools who win in basketball or wrestling or cross country or soccer or tennis. There are places that simply cultivate winning better than others period. In life 20 percent of the people do the work and make 80 percent of the worlds money. Socialism would say penalize the people who are doing all the work and having all the success. Let's not go there with high school sports.
So these 20% making 80% is all good and on the up and up??? Interesting...
It is real life and that is exactly why I was rooting for Ishpeming every time they went to Ford Field and won. I knew they had built a culture for success and they had to overcome difficulty to get there and they had been tested on and off the field and they earned those wins and those titles!
 
Well thanks for those kind words, and if you really know how things work up here then you understand why we are leary of what we hear and what we read about what goes on in some of the schools in the larger urban areas. Remember that 14% is 0% in the UP.
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everyfriday
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everyfriday
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Joined: 6:34 PM - Sep 11, 2017

9:46 PM - Feb 12, 2018 #170

Understood
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