Soshite, Go Nin continuation?

RaeSeddon
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RaeSeddon
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Dec 30 2014, 07:47 PM #1

I wouldn't call this so much a plot bunny but a baby bunny-- still unsteady on it's legs.

Soshite Go Nin works in one of my absolute favorite things in Japanese mysticism and folklore: Onmyouji. Evil/corrupted Onmyouji to be exact. The onmyouji were court sorcerers in ancient Japan who acted as oracles and helped navigate between the physical and spirit worlds in a time where it was believed the two were in close contact. Along with monks and priests, they cared for the spiritual health and well-being of the court and the Emperor/Mikado. One famous onmyouji in folklore of the time was Abe no Seimei, who continues to be a beloved folk hero into modern day.

So what if, when the shrine on the mountain is disturbed, that stirs something else, that forces the guys to look into how the history of the armor might have intersected with that of the onmyouji? Seiji would probably feature prominently as his relation to a prominent clan like the Date would mean his ancestors would be tied to court life, as would Touma thanks to his ties to the Hideyoshi family.

In the original concept for the series, Touma was also supposed to have a grandfather who was a Buddhist priest and I've always liked that because of how much time Touma spends digging around in Nasutei's library-- he had to have developed that habit somewhere.

Genre wise this could be a fantastic horror story since there's so many different directions you could go with it, and since it's post-season 2 pre-Gaiden it could almost be seen as a prelude to Gaiden if you felt like tying all of that together.
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White-Pumpkins
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Dec 31 2014, 08:59 PM #2

I really like this baby plot bunny. It can go a lot of places in horror or action/adventure and would serve as a nice companion (prequel or sequel) to Gaiden. If done right it could even fill in a lot of plot holes from Gaiden too.
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RaeSeddon
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Jan 1 2015, 04:04 PM #3

So one of the common conceptions of the religious/spiritual class in ancient (and modern) Japan is that they were unconcerned with the petty dramas of the court/mortal life. It was also one of the reasons the onmyouji were so trusted even with the great power they had. But status was still important, so in-fighting between the onmyoudo order wasn't uncommon.

In Soshite, Go Nin, Touma and Shin discover that the shrine housed the spirit of a banished onmyouji sorcerer who had done something heinous enough to get themselves tossed out of the imperial court. There's no indication as to what that thing was though-- what if it was a power grab involving the armor? What if what Shikaisen did to Seiji in New York wasn't the first time he tried it?

What if Shikaisen and a handful of other loyal onmyouji had tried to wrest control of the Tenku armor from Touma's ancestors, and that's why Touma's armor is locked away/ is no longer in the family possession by the time Touma goes looking for it? The "lost" armor was lost for reason.
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White-Pumpkins
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Jan 1 2015, 06:26 PM #4

My only thing against that is Shikaisen openly says in both sub and dud that he didn’t know there were four other armors. He only knew about the Halo armor and that the Date clan had it so either he would have served that clan in the past when they still held a significant about of power in the east, or one of their sworn allies. Even with Shikaisen pleases the clan and he hears whispers about a magical armor but he never finds it? After a while he might just think it’s a rumor so he moves on, ends up going out of the country at some point even.

Flash forward to a few centuries later he’d start hearing something about magic armor again and find a way to lure someone of the Date clan out of the country. Which in its own way was pretty smart because you’re putting Sage in a country he’s probably never been too or know next to nothing about. Then Boom, he find out there are other armors. Before he gets incinerated he even boasts about knowing the guys have faced other foes before, that he could have found out with his magic or we could thank Mia and Yuli for it.

I haven’t read/listened to the Shoshite, Go Nin, for a long time. If that onmyouji served at the imperial court during Hideyoshi’s reign me thinks that whatever he did to get tossed out might have something to do with the botched invasions to Korea and China. Hideyoshi wasn’t a man who liked failure. That sorcerer could have known about the armor.

I happen to think that before the downfall of the clan they moved the armor so their enemies couldn’t get it and use it. If they really had it completely in their possession. Given the unrest in Japan at that time in history all the armors probably got moved around a lot. The Toyotomi clan just hid theirs the best and after Ieyasu won the country they probably didn’t dare risk going to it’s location. It would have sat there somewhere between 300 to 400 years until Rowen found it.

Other onmyouji sorcerers could know about the armors too. They just haven't done anything to get them.

Wow I did not mean to write a novel there...

Side note - Your knowledge is giving me some nice side info on a current fic I'm doing. But don't worry I'm not stealing your plot baby bunny.
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RaeSeddon
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Jan 1 2015, 11:49 PM #5

Ahh, that's right! And yeah, I'd buy that Toyotomi was just really smart about hiding the Tenku armor. Also, the one thing that bothers me about Gaiden is that to an extent, Seiji should have known better, or at the very least his family should have-- I've always taken it that the Date clan knew the most about the history of their armor, being as old and storied as they are: there would be a document or a diary entry about it somewhere, if one of the Date clan ran afoul of a particular evil/greedy onmyouji. A run in like that would have been an absolute scandal at the time--culminating in quite a few banishments and at least one forced suicide.

With that in mind, my take on Shikaisen is that that he was high-ranking onmyouji of the court who got word of the Kourin armor and convinced a few of the other onmyouji to make a grab for it with him. They're all banished or put to death and their spirits sealed away in a ritual.

The world moves on, history becomes legend has it has the tendency to do, and it's possible even the Date clan itself forgets. Whatever Shikaisen's spirit was trapped in is removed from Japan, either as a spoil of war or by some other means. It ends up in New York.

Soshite Go Nin happens-- the one spirit escaping the shrine effects all of the others, effectively "waking" Shikaisen in the early 90's New York City. It takes a while for him to get his plan in motion, and in the meantime, there's all of this other weird stuff going on with angry/restless spirits in Japan since the rest of Shikaisen's conspirators are all free to cause havok.
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White-Pumpkins
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Jan 2 2015, 05:34 AM #6

There is a crap ton of things in Gaiden that really bother me. That’s a rant for another time…

Yes. I agree completely. Seiji should have known better and so should the clan. How would a sword with their crest get to America? I really doubt anyone in a family known for swordsmanship would be careless with a sword. Had someone been that stupid they probably would have suffered very harsh consequences.

Oh! What if Shikaisen actually planned for his underlings to die and he was the one to seal their souls? They would be his puppets and spies. He either gets himself in deep trouble after words or is sealed up himself because the court knew he was their master, or something. He gets free-lets blame his computer lackie-and just goes between LA and New York for a few years while things go on in Japan.

Soshite Go Nin happens and the spirit there alerts him to the armor but has just enough free will to leave not to say how many armors as a final defiance. That tells Shikaisen the Kourin armor is out in the open and easy pickings for him.
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RaeSeddon
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Jan 2 2015, 02:14 PM #7

The only thing that excuses the fact that Seiji ran off on his own to investigate the authenticity of this supposed sword in America is if it's something the clan is more or less used to, and they're so protective/secretive about their own history that it just doesn't occur to Seiji to tell the others. It's, A) not their business and B.) the sort of thing that would be par for the course of being a Date clan member. I'm sure these sorts of things happen relatively often just because the clan is so old. To me it's less about being careless, and more about Shikaisen exploiting what he knows to the the family habit of over caution.

And I'm totally willing to go with the idea that Shikaisen at least knew his underlings would be forced to fall on their swords for him. It's a consequence they all would have expected, given the crime they committed. So he makes sure that when they're sealed away, if one of them is freed, they all are.

It also occured to me that it would be really awesome to work flashbacks into this, going into what actually happened back in the imperial court: whether it's the guys reading about it somewhere or the Kourin armor essentially showing Seiji what happened to it before.
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Celestial Tiger
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Feb 1 2015, 09:10 PM #8

Okay, I have to admit, I like the idea of connecting soshite go nin and gaiden, especially since gaiden is fairly random on its own. How did Shikaisen get to America, how did he team up with the scientist, and of course how did they know about korin. I would love to read a fic that explained some of these things.

However I have some issues with some of the stuff you guys are talking about.

You mention that Seiji and Touma would feature prominently because of their ancestors and that they would be tied to court life.

First you are forgetting about Shin's ancestor, Mouri Motonari was quite prominent during this time as well, so if something was happening that effected the entire country he would be involved as well.

Second, by the time Date Masmune, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Mouri Motonari were born court life was non-existent. The Emperor was still around and sat in his palace in Kyoto, but he had no power what so ever. The same would be said for the Onmyouji. Now there might be some Onmyouji being employed by local daimyo, but by this point in time they weren't so obsessed with this type of divination/superstition. I would think that the Omyouji that survived the transfer from Imperial rule to Military rule would stay connected to the religious side of things and thus were employed more by the shrines and temples of the country rather than the daimyo. The daimyo would then go to the local temple or shrine if they wanted to use the skills of a Onmyouji.

That being said, there could still have been an onmyouji that was skillful enough to predict certain events happening for the good or ill of their client. A daimyo might go to an onmyouji to find out if a particularly risky venture was worth it or not. This could be their connection to Mouri, Date, and Toyotomi. Also if we do assume their connections with the temples and shrines, an onmyouji could also have connection with the Sanada's as well.

It has been awhile since I've listened to soshite go nin, but you say that the onmyouji was tossed out of the imperial court. I'm assuming this info is correct which would mean he was tossed out way before our three/four ancestors existed. That doesn't mean that it didn't have information about the yoroi or anything like that, but just not the connection to Masamune, Hideyoshi, or Motonari. Now I wonder if an onmyouji from their time may have had a confrontation with this older sealed away peer and had released it at some point during the mid to late.... ooohh..

Shikaisen was an onmyouji during the mid to late 16th century during the time of our three ancestors, possibly working in a temple/shrine in the northern region. He finds out some information about this older onmyouji that was sealed away during the Heian time and goes to investigate him and accidentally sets him free. Because of these events Shikaisen finds out about Korin. Maybe Masanune gets involved or something, and they are able to reseal the older onmyouji, and they also seal away Shikaisen. Then during the events of the meiji restoration or during WWII the object that Shikaisen's been sealed into gets taken to the US by some soldier/diplomat unknowing of what it is.

I agree that Hideyoshi would have made sure the armor was hidden, but how did he get the armor in the first place? He wasn't from a powerful/famous family. Did Kaosu give him the armor, or did he take it from someone else? Maybe the Oda family actually had it and Hideyoshi found it after Nobunaga was killed?

Also remember in Message, Kaosu unseals Tenku during WWII and then has to deal with Suzunagi. What did he do with Tenku after that confrontation?

As far as Seiji running of to NY to authenticate the sword.

I imagine things were taken from Japan with and without permission from the time foreigners were allowed in. Either druing the Meiji restoration, or WWII. It could have also been an officer in the imperial army that decided to wear his family heirloom rather than the standard sword and got killed and his sword taken by his killer, a US soldier. That sword would have stayed in the family until someone maybe had it looked at and it went all the way to calling someone from the Date clan to see if it really was what they thought it was. The owner may not want to let it leave their hands, a scan or photo of the sword wouldn't be enough so the easiest solution would be for someone to go to NY and look at it first hand. Possibly the Date family, if it was real, would want to negotiate the return of a precious heirloom.

I would have to watch Gaiden again, but I thought the guys knew that Seiji was in NY when they had the party.

Sorry about the length, I get to thinking and can't stop :P
I'm in the "Kento is Hot" club because... He's so cuddly!
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White-Pumpkins
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Feb 1 2015, 10:13 PM #9

Thanks CT!

There was a lot in there I hadn't thought about and didn't know.

And yes. In Gaiden they all knew Sage was in NY but he told them he'd be back in time for Ryo's birthday party and when he wasn't they thought it was strange. Ryo even say's it's unlike Sage to be late.

I know that Mouri Motonari was very prominent in history at the time, I was just focusing on Date Masmune because I was trying to figure out if it was possible he was the reason Shikaisen knew about the armor somehow since it's only Korin/Halo he knew about.


As far as who had the armors and how it got to them, last I checked there is no official way (aside from Kaosu giving Wildfire to Ryo). We know that stories of the armor were in the other families, this makes me think they had it for a long time and either Kaosu gave it to them or told them of the armor. How or why is up to you.

I'm on board with Shikaisen being sealed away then during the Meijin Restoration, WWII, or even sometime after being whisked away from Japan to the states. Or he could have moved with a family who was supposed to be guarding his prison to America. I don't see any other real reason for him not to be in Japan otherwise.


I also like the idea what maybe the Oda family had Tenku first and Hideyoshi got it from them. It would makes sense something like that would happen. The other armors could have changed hands along the way too. I'm not convinced that Kento's family had Hardrock from the start, I've always thought it was a gift to them either by Kaosu or from another Samurai family for thanks of either service or saving a life. Sanada could have had Wildfire but then Kaosu took it away from them for some reason. Or any of the armors could have been in clans that had been obliterated during history-especially the Sengoku.

And that is my thought dump. o.O
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Celestial Tiger
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Feb 1 2015, 11:06 PM #10

I think I need to go and watch Gaiden again, it's been a very long time since I'd seen it.

Well, like I said, in Message Kaosu unseals Tenku which is hidden under a destroyed shrine during WWII. I believe he had the fear that Arago would show up because of all the crap that was going on. So IF Hideyoshi had the armor before (having gotten it from Kaosu or Oda) and had hidden it, that location had been lost or forgotten. I could see the Date's and Mouri's having gotten the armor and keeping it in some form or another (maybe not even though the main line of the family)... though didn't Shin find his armor in the ocean? ... and like you said Kaosu gave Ryo Rekka. As for Shu, I agree even though the story is official, I don't like it. I've always thought it had been either found, or a gift from a samurai family that thought that they were more worth of it for some reason or another. Which makes me wonder who would have had Rekka in the beginning. Was it a Sanada, or maybe a Takeda (who the sanada were loyal to before they were defeated and had to go into hiding).
I'm in the "Kento is Hot" club because... He's so cuddly!
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Celestial Tiger
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Feb 2 2015, 01:26 AM #11

I just had thought... Soshite go nin couldn't have happened before Gaiden. It more likely happened after.

I say that because Shin has moved to Tokyo in the drama because he had gotten into a good collage. Gaiden happens just after the TV series, so Shin is still in his first year of high school.

I think some of the ideas you guys had could still happen, just in a different order though.

;)
I'm in the "Kento is Hot" club because... He's so cuddly!
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RaeSeddon
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Feb 2 2015, 02:09 AM #12

It would be interesting if Kaosu had a hand in making sure the Sanada family ended up with the Rekka armor during the chaos of the family having to go into hiding. As for Shuu, my take on when his family got the armor was some time in the mid Heian era when there was a lot of cultural trade with China. For how quickly things went to shit in the decline of Heian, there could have been a vested interest in getting the armor out of Japan, though due to circumstances Shuu's ancestors never left, just plonked down in Yokohama.

For how much Kaosu tries to control how things happen in the series, I prefer the headcanon that not a lot went according to plan with the armor early on, especially if you consider Arago getting ahold of the Mashou armor.
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Celestial Tiger
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Feb 2 2015, 02:37 AM #13

I like the idea of Kongo being sent to China as a way of protecting it as the country went to shit, but I would think that maybe Shu's family brought it over much later. They weren't too fond of foreigners during that whole time period (not that they are now either).
I'm in the "Kento is Hot" club because... He's so cuddly!
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RaeSeddon
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Feb 2 2015, 02:01 PM #14

Hmm, true. I love how this has evolved into a very complex headcanon about the acquisition of the armor. xD

Not that it's a bad a thing.

So the Kongo armor is sent to China early on and ends up back in Japan much later, but how much later? Also as a side note: I've never 100% bought that the families just didn't know there were other armors out there-- I think they knew but more or less told the guys not to count on the other bearers, which is why it takes Nasutei yelling at them to get them to work together, and there are still issues after that. They've been warned to more or less be skeptical of each other's ability re: how long they've had their armor and the like.

Also I kinda like the idea of Masamune, Hideyoshi and Monotari snarking at each other about the armor. "Oh and when was the last time your family used it?"
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White-Pumpkins
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Feb 2 2015, 06:34 PM #15

Complex head canons are the best head canons. XD

Let me hang a few more theories on that. Look out long post that is throwing Sanada into this fray now.

I'm not sure if I'm for or against Hardrock going to China, their history isn't a whole lot better than Japan's as far as wars and the like. It might not have been much safer there unless it ended up in a temple with a lot of skilled monks to guard it. Or was in a very rural place.

The other families had to have known something about the armors. When the guys first meet they aren't all that surprise to see others with armor like theirs. They might have been told something as simple as, "Well you get this armor and we know there are four others out there-somewhere. But meh."

There would also be no guarantee that all five armors would be there. Date and Mouri had their armors close by, Sage is told that there are others but only one other (Cye) might show up. Cye is told roughly the same thing. Which is why they show up at about the same time. The other three armors, Hardrock, Strata, and Wildfire are out there somewhere but no one is sure where.

I just went back and looked up a few things so going back to what I said about the Toyotomi clan hiding Strata after Ieyasu took over. Motonari died in 1571, so that just leaves us with his grandson, Mouri Terumoto who succeeded him and was named by Hideyoshi as one of the five regents to be in charge of the realm until his son Hideyori came of age. Lets just say here that Terumoto knew of the armors, and that Hideyoshi and Masamune too had one.

Ieyasu takes power, and Strata is hidden permanently by the remaining Toyotomi clan members. However neither Masamune or Terumoto are aware of this. Terumoto didn't support Ieyasu when he took power which is one of the reasons he became a monk and Mouri land was reduced. Masamune could have dropped subtle questions to see if Ieyasu had also acquired the Strata armor, only to discover he had no idea what Date was talking about. Masamune would know the Torrent armor was still in the Mouri clan (which was a large family). Likewise after Masamune died in 1636, the Mouri knew the Date still had Halo.

It's not impossible to think they might have known Sanada had possession of the Wildfire armor, they served under Hideyoshi for a time and he is said to have had a high regard for Sanada Yukimura. Yukimaura died in battle at Osaka Castle in 1615, the day before Hideyori was forced to commit suicide. Date and Mouri could have known Sanada had the Wildfire armor, and that it was with them even after Yukimaura's death, his older brother Nobuyuki might have had it, then the clan goes into hiding for reasons and Date and Mouri forget they had it. Either the information was never written down or passed on word of mouth.

I'm sorry I was on a roll. Feel free to correct any historical things I got wrong.
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