What the heck???

What the heck???

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

January 14th, 2009, 5:39 am #1

Take a look at the Graves website:
http://www.moenorman.org/contents.php?top_cms_id=23

Part way down there is a discussion of Moe's grip and a couple of pictures that purport to show that Moe's overlapping grip gave him more leverage... They can't seriously be trying to say that the angle between lead arm and clubshaft is less then 90 degrees on the 'young Moe' picture can they? I mean all you have to do is stand in front of a mirror and put yourself in the positions to see that the lead arm and clubshaft angle is 90 degrees or very close in both cases. It is the same mistake that folks make with Hogan's swing trying to say that he had a more acute angle between his lead arm and the shaft then other players when in fact it is all a matter of perspective... A flater swing appears to have a sharper angle when viewed from in front.

Wow that is really disturbing to me as I like the Graves brothers and I think that they are pretty classy guys... Hopefully I am missing something here???

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 14th, 2009, 12:18 pm #2

Even tour pros and top instructors make that error based on comments I've heard a number of them make.

Peter
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Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

January 14th, 2009, 5:20 pm #3

Take a look at the Graves website:
http://www.moenorman.org/contents.php?top_cms_id=23

Part way down there is a discussion of Moe's grip and a couple of pictures that purport to show that Moe's overlapping grip gave him more leverage... They can't seriously be trying to say that the angle between lead arm and clubshaft is less then 90 degrees on the 'young Moe' picture can they? I mean all you have to do is stand in front of a mirror and put yourself in the positions to see that the lead arm and clubshaft angle is 90 degrees or very close in both cases. It is the same mistake that folks make with Hogan's swing trying to say that he had a more acute angle between his lead arm and the shaft then other players when in fact it is all a matter of perspective... A flater swing appears to have a sharper angle when viewed from in front.

Wow that is really disturbing to me as I like the Graves brothers and I think that they are pretty classy guys... Hopefully I am missing something here???

Regards, Herbert
Herbert,

Seems that they make a lot of claims there that they probably can't back up. IMO

I think they are saying that younger Moe with the overlapping grip had more then 90 degrees, and older Moe had less. It is a strange comparison as who knows if the older Moe swing was exactly at the top, or not. It does not look like it at all. It looks like comparing two different positions thinking that nobody would catch that?

I think you can create more angle at the top with ten finger then overlapping, but the question should be. Do you want more angle at the top of the swing? I find it quite strange that they even go there.

They claim to teach people to swing just like Moe, but yet Todd does not swing like Moe after how many years of trying. IMO nobody swings exactly like MOe, and nobody ever will.

Ham
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Joined: July 12th, 2001, 12:35 am

January 15th, 2009, 5:59 am #4

Take a look at the Graves website:
http://www.moenorman.org/contents.php?top_cms_id=23

Part way down there is a discussion of Moe's grip and a couple of pictures that purport to show that Moe's overlapping grip gave him more leverage... They can't seriously be trying to say that the angle between lead arm and clubshaft is less then 90 degrees on the 'young Moe' picture can they? I mean all you have to do is stand in front of a mirror and put yourself in the positions to see that the lead arm and clubshaft angle is 90 degrees or very close in both cases. It is the same mistake that folks make with Hogan's swing trying to say that he had a more acute angle between his lead arm and the shaft then other players when in fact it is all a matter of perspective... A flater swing appears to have a sharper angle when viewed from in front.

Wow that is really disturbing to me as I like the Graves brothers and I think that they are pretty classy guys... Hopefully I am missing something here???

Regards, Herbert
Herb,


I couldn't help but respond - seeing that you no longer think I am "classy" because expose my experiences about loss of angles and leverage.

The club head is further back in the overlapping Moe. (I suppose you will say he is hitting a longer club) Ham commented that Moe might not be at the top on the 1995 Moe however, I hit balls with Moe many times since 1995 and he never could get the club even near where the older videos show. Lack of flexibility? Yes, I think there is some however, I absolutely believe if you move the club into the palm of the trail hand (lifeline), you will lose angle between the arm and clubshaft. Did this happen with Moe moving to a 10 finger...possibly.

The purpose of my point is that Moe lost hand action for some reason and this is what it looks like.

But this is not about Moe, this is about the what I continue to see in students in much more extreme examples.

I have seen this at least 500 times in my golf school, more times than I can count. I speak here from experience. People run the club into the lifeline of the trail hand (and sometimes lead hand God forbid) and it reduces the angle substantially at the top of the back-swing.

Moe had a reduction of this angle also as he moved to 10 finger and got older. I was with Moe when we talked about it and he demonstrated it to me.

By no means am I saying that you need to forcefully maximize this angle. What I am saying is that you can not have correct hand action (speed) from the lifeline of the trail hand.

That is the purpose of my comments on this page.

Furthermore, I have other pictures of Moe showing better hand action than the pictures on moenorman.org.

Grips that are too large can and often do limit hand action. Moe and I discussed this on many occasions.



Todd

Last edited by Tgraves on January 15th, 2009, 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 12th, 2001, 12:35 am

January 15th, 2009, 6:09 am #5

Herbert,

Seems that they make a lot of claims there that they probably can't back up. IMO

I think they are saying that younger Moe with the overlapping grip had more then 90 degrees, and older Moe had less. It is a strange comparison as who knows if the older Moe swing was exactly at the top, or not. It does not look like it at all. It looks like comparing two different positions thinking that nobody would catch that?

I think you can create more angle at the top with ten finger then overlapping, but the question should be. Do you want more angle at the top of the swing? I find it quite strange that they even go there.

They claim to teach people to swing just like Moe, but yet Todd does not swing like Moe after how many years of trying. IMO nobody swings exactly like MOe, and nobody ever will.

Ham
I can also create more angle (not correct) with 10 finger but not from the palms, however, I am not saying that you want to maximize the angle. You misunderstand the point.

I am saying that you want to produce correct hand action. In my schools, students come to the schools with huge grips into the lifeline of the hands. They have so little hand action and so little speed. And you know how "loss of speed" is a major problem with "The Palm Grippers".

The goal is to get the club correctly placed in the hands so that the hands can work and move the golf club.

I see this so many times that I wonder who could possibly teach this stuff but I see it every year hundreds of times.

Once I move the club into the fingers like Moe, align the correct joints in the hands, align the club-shaft on the trail arm line and allow them to hinge the hands correctly, the immediately move the club with the hands and arm speed and their swing improves dramatically.

These are not claims, they are experiences.


Todd



Last edited by Tgraves on January 15th, 2009, 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 12th, 2001, 12:35 am

January 15th, 2009, 6:57 am #6

Take a look at the Graves website:
http://www.moenorman.org/contents.php?top_cms_id=23

Part way down there is a discussion of Moe's grip and a couple of pictures that purport to show that Moe's overlapping grip gave him more leverage... They can't seriously be trying to say that the angle between lead arm and clubshaft is less then 90 degrees on the 'young Moe' picture can they? I mean all you have to do is stand in front of a mirror and put yourself in the positions to see that the lead arm and clubshaft angle is 90 degrees or very close in both cases. It is the same mistake that folks make with Hogan's swing trying to say that he had a more acute angle between his lead arm and the shaft then other players when in fact it is all a matter of perspective... A flater swing appears to have a sharper angle when viewed from in front.

Wow that is really disturbing to me as I like the Graves brothers and I think that they are pretty classy guys... Hopefully I am missing something here???

Regards, Herbert


Trust me, HAM, they are both at the top.



Todd
Last edited by Tgraves on January 15th, 2009, 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

January 15th, 2009, 7:52 am #7

Herb,


I couldn't help but respond - seeing that you no longer think I am "classy" because expose my experiences about loss of angles and leverage.

The club head is further back in the overlapping Moe. (I suppose you will say he is hitting a longer club) Ham commented that Moe might not be at the top on the 1995 Moe however, I hit balls with Moe many times since 1995 and he never could get the club even near where the older videos show. Lack of flexibility? Yes, I think there is some however, I absolutely believe if you move the club into the palm of the trail hand (lifeline), you will lose angle between the arm and clubshaft. Did this happen with Moe moving to a 10 finger...possibly.

The purpose of my point is that Moe lost hand action for some reason and this is what it looks like.

But this is not about Moe, this is about the what I continue to see in students in much more extreme examples.

I have seen this at least 500 times in my golf school, more times than I can count. I speak here from experience. People run the club into the lifeline of the trail hand (and sometimes lead hand God forbid) and it reduces the angle substantially at the top of the back-swing.

Moe had a reduction of this angle also as he moved to 10 finger and got older. I was with Moe when we talked about it and he demonstrated it to me.

By no means am I saying that you need to forcefully maximize this angle. What I am saying is that you can not have correct hand action (speed) from the lifeline of the trail hand.

That is the purpose of my comments on this page.

Furthermore, I have other pictures of Moe showing better hand action than the pictures on moenorman.org.

Grips that are too large can and often do limit hand action. Moe and I discussed this on many occasions.



Todd
I said that I think you are classy guys. I havn't changed my mind yet, not that I expect that you will lose any sleep over it.

The angle between the lead arm and the shaft is very close to the same in both pictures. The yellow lines do not represent the angle between the lead arm and the clubshaft in the picture on the left so what do they represent? What were you trying to show? If you made a mistake it is no big deal for as Peter mentioned many pros and experts have made the same error regarding Hogan's swing.

Hey look you are ten times the ball striker or more then I will ever be and you know a lot more about teaching and playing then I ever will. LOL, however on this forum you better have your technical stuff correct or you will get nailed regardless of how minor the point might be. I have certainly been on both side of that sort of thing.

What the heck if the yellow lines have some other meaning then great!

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

January 15th, 2009, 7:57 am #8



Trust me, HAM, they are both at the top.



Todd
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Joined: July 12th, 2001, 12:35 am

January 15th, 2009, 1:16 pm #9

Wow.
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Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

January 15th, 2009, 2:12 pm #10



Trust me, HAM, they are both at the top.



Todd
The picture on the left looks like Moe is more into the downswing then the picture on the right. If you look at the amount of shaft bend. (yes they even bend when Moe swings them ) The picture on the left shows somewhat more bend. Draw a straight line starting from the grip and you will see this.

I do agree with most of what you are saying. Afterall Moe did say "the fingers are live, palms are dead"

It is just that the angle at the top is not nearly as important as the angle at 6/100s.

Best regards,

Ham
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