Training

Training

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

October 31st, 2010, 6:19 pm #1

I believe that training with a really heavy swing pipe or practicing with heavy clubs or other objects is not a good idea. My reasoning is that while doing slow motion drills or swinging with a heavy object a person is using the wrong muscles to hold the object up in the air. These are the same muscles that would be used to raise the arms up to parallel to the ground if standing at address and lifting the arms without turning the shoulders. Also the wrong muscles in the hands and forearms are activated to hold on to a heavy pipe and also to keep it in the air. If one purpose of slow motion swing pipe training is to train the body to act in a certain way during the swing then the wrong muscles are liable to be activated when actually swinging if they are activated during the heavy weight practice.

Another thing to consider is that there is a certain amount of extra stress put on the lower back by holding a heavy object out in front like that. It is something that I was told to avoid after my back injury several years ago.

The reason that I started thinking about these things is that I noticed a tendency to shank after practicing my golf swing with a 12lb splitting maul. Thinking about it I remembered that Paul Bertholy had the best shank cure that I know of and also that he mentioned that a student who thought about trying to lag the club etc. while playing was liable to shank their way off of the course. Then there are the accounts of Tom on this forum who took instruction from Paul Bertholy and mentioned that Bertholy was aware of a tendency to shank with his method. It makes sense to me that if the muscles used to hold the pipe in the air that I mentioned above were activated during a real swing then possibly the club would move outside just a bit resulting in a heel hit or shank.

That is my shank theory! LOL I have no proof but I think that there is enough there to give a person reason to pause. I see no reason for using extremely heavy swing pipes at any rate. There is a tendency for folks to think that if using a normal weight swing pipe is good then using a really heavy one would have to be better. I think that this not the case! Personally I have switched my swing pipe work to using a cut off shaft with a grip and a very light weight on the clubhead end. I find the process of working out with this swing pipe to very interesting and not really what I might have expected.

Another consideration for me is the possibility that Bob Pritchard at SOMAX is actually onto something with his yip theory. Pritchards theory paraphrased is that tension in the forearms over time will cause a buildup of micro fibers in the muscles that will cause a golfer to yip and otherwise putt poorly. Swinging or working with heavy weighted clubs and pipes would tend to cause the same sort of problems.

One last thought on the shank subject; I have observed that average golfers hit a lot more hosel shots then they realize. LOL next time you make a nice swing and hit a shot that is not completely solid feeling and goes just a bit to the push side (right side for right hander) of the target take a look at the impact point on the club face and at the hosel. There just might be a few dimple marks on the hosel!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

October 31st, 2010, 7:30 pm #2

As I've mentioned to you I've used a heavy club in training since I first heard Gary Player mention it which was before there were Momentus ads on The Golf CHannel and I have no shank problem.

Bertholy mentions explicitly in his manual that if you take his exercises consciously to the course (which he also says you should never do) then you can have a shanking problem.

As I've posted here I developed a system before knowing about Bertholy that had you consciously maintain the angle between lead arm and club. As I noted at the time about it, if you have a shanking problem then you need to move the ball position forward. This is largely related to another point I've mentioned here a number of times here, most ams play the ball farther back than pros BECAUSE they do not maintain the angle. If you held the angle longer then the club face would be very open with those ball positions.

So in this case as in Bertholy's the cause is not heavy clubs but rather holding the angle longer which requires an appropriate ball position.

Peter
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

November 2nd, 2010, 7:53 pm #3

I believe that training with a really heavy swing pipe or practicing with heavy clubs or other objects is not a good idea. My reasoning is that while doing slow motion drills or swinging with a heavy object a person is using the wrong muscles to hold the object up in the air. These are the same muscles that would be used to raise the arms up to parallel to the ground if standing at address and lifting the arms without turning the shoulders. Also the wrong muscles in the hands and forearms are activated to hold on to a heavy pipe and also to keep it in the air. If one purpose of slow motion swing pipe training is to train the body to act in a certain way during the swing then the wrong muscles are liable to be activated when actually swinging if they are activated during the heavy weight practice.

Another thing to consider is that there is a certain amount of extra stress put on the lower back by holding a heavy object out in front like that. It is something that I was told to avoid after my back injury several years ago.

The reason that I started thinking about these things is that I noticed a tendency to shank after practicing my golf swing with a 12lb splitting maul. Thinking about it I remembered that Paul Bertholy had the best shank cure that I know of and also that he mentioned that a student who thought about trying to lag the club etc. while playing was liable to shank their way off of the course. Then there are the accounts of Tom on this forum who took instruction from Paul Bertholy and mentioned that Bertholy was aware of a tendency to shank with his method. It makes sense to me that if the muscles used to hold the pipe in the air that I mentioned above were activated during a real swing then possibly the club would move outside just a bit resulting in a heel hit or shank.

That is my shank theory! LOL I have no proof but I think that there is enough there to give a person reason to pause. I see no reason for using extremely heavy swing pipes at any rate. There is a tendency for folks to think that if using a normal weight swing pipe is good then using a really heavy one would have to be better. I think that this not the case! Personally I have switched my swing pipe work to using a cut off shaft with a grip and a very light weight on the clubhead end. I find the process of working out with this swing pipe to very interesting and not really what I might have expected.

Another consideration for me is the possibility that Bob Pritchard at SOMAX is actually onto something with his yip theory. Pritchards theory paraphrased is that tension in the forearms over time will cause a buildup of micro fibers in the muscles that will cause a golfer to yip and otherwise putt poorly. Swinging or working with heavy weighted clubs and pipes would tend to cause the same sort of problems.

One last thought on the shank subject; I have observed that average golfers hit a lot more hosel shots then they realize. LOL next time you make a nice swing and hit a shot that is not completely solid feeling and goes just a bit to the push side (right side for right hander) of the target take a look at the impact point on the club face and at the hosel. There just might be a few dimple marks on the hosel!
does the Bertholy swing pipe weigh??? I thought that it was not so much more then a normal golf club.

Ham
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

November 3rd, 2010, 2:23 pm #4

First - If Doug or Harry see this they can answer but other than them, and perhaps Tom, none of the regular posters here had direct contact with Bertholy and have Bertholy's Swing pipe. The swing pipes we have were our developments and not Bertholy's. Bertholy's swing pipe was not symmetrically weighted and that lack of symmetry was used to enhance certain exercises but I've not seen any documentation on the details of the weighting.

Second - The 'swing' pipe was not intended to be 'swung' (unlike Gary Player's heavy club) unless you'd consider this exercise to be a 'swing'. It was intended to be largely a 'prop' that would allow you to get into the proper positions that you would with a golf club and a weight for strengthening the lead arm and wrist for release/post release in some exercises (as shown by Harry Mapp in the drill).

Peter
Last edited by sagf_moderator on November 3rd, 2010, 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 23rd, 2005, 12:18 pm

November 3rd, 2010, 7:39 pm #5


I don't have my Bertholy Swing Pipe anymore, but it only weighed about 2.5 pounds. It had a heavy end and a light end, so the stress on your body could be maximized or minimized at your preference. I found the weight of the Pipe to be non-stressful no matter which end I held. The stress came from holding positions and using muscle resistance while moving slowly through positions. As I recall, Bertholy said that the Pipe was weighted so that at most it simulated the feel of a Driver swing in terms of overcoming inertia. The Pipe was only about 2 feet long (a bit less I think), so it had to be weighted as it was in order to replicate the feel of a real club while in motion. Also, Bertholy advocated using the Pipe for his Deltoid Lifts, a very important part of his program, which practitioners here seem to ignore. For me, the Deltoid Lifts were the key to mastering the Bertholy Method. Bertholy said that a student should begin by doing the Lifts with the Pipe held near the middle where the bar was balanced. Then as the student became stronger and more proficient at the exercise the Pipe could be held with the light end at the tip and finally with the heavy end at the tip.

Tom
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

November 4th, 2010, 1:19 am #6

First - If Doug or Harry see this they can answer but other than them, and perhaps Tom, none of the regular posters here had direct contact with Bertholy and have Bertholy's Swing pipe. The swing pipes we have were our developments and not Bertholy's. Bertholy's swing pipe was not symmetrically weighted and that lack of symmetry was used to enhance certain exercises but I've not seen any documentation on the details of the weighting.

Second - The 'swing' pipe was not intended to be 'swung' (unlike Gary Player's heavy club) unless you'd consider this exercise to be a 'swing'. It was intended to be largely a 'prop' that would allow you to get into the proper positions that you would with a golf club and a weight for strengthening the lead arm and wrist for release/post release in some exercises (as shown by Harry Mapp in the drill).

Peter
Peter - "It was intended to be largely a 'prop' that would allow you to get into the proper positions that you would with a golf club and a weight for strengthening the lead arm and wrist for release/post release in some exercises."

This is what I was trying to get Herbert to discover by asking him what benefits might be realized by training with a heavy pipe. He offered none. Below is a picture of my two forearms. My left forearm is a full 1 1/4" larger in diameter than my right.



More developed and stronger...since the lead arm is what controls the club, there is benefit to be gained by having a stronger lead arm. Being stronger in the lead side / forearms is one of the main tenets of Bertholy training...it's how you control the club. More strength equals better control... just watch a junior ( or anybody ) swing a club to heavy for his strength...

And of course one must define your terms as Ham has pointed out. What does one mean by heavy? What does one mean by "training". If by training and heavy you mean swinging a 12 pound wood splitter, well yeah maybe so. Perhaps it can lead to the shanks. My swing pipe is about four pounds, and my weighted club is just the "Swing Sock" tour version wrapped to a five iron - about 1 pound. I only use my swing pipe for the first two exercises, and my weighted club for all other drills and overload / heavy training.

But to generalize and make an all inclusive statement that "training with heavy pipes is not good"...well that dog just don't hunt. Though one weekend this August, we cut down a crab apple tree. I spent all afternoon hand splitting the logs. Was tired and sore, but the next day went out and shot a 76 with my future father in law! Didn't even warm up with range balls either. Not one damn lateral...but I missed 5 birdie putts under 10 feet! .

Kevin

"A Blueprint For Golf Excellence"

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 28th, 2003, 12:59 pm

November 4th, 2010, 10:22 pm #7

I believe that training with a really heavy swing pipe or practicing with heavy clubs or other objects is not a good idea. My reasoning is that while doing slow motion drills or swinging with a heavy object a person is using the wrong muscles to hold the object up in the air. These are the same muscles that would be used to raise the arms up to parallel to the ground if standing at address and lifting the arms without turning the shoulders. Also the wrong muscles in the hands and forearms are activated to hold on to a heavy pipe and also to keep it in the air. If one purpose of slow motion swing pipe training is to train the body to act in a certain way during the swing then the wrong muscles are liable to be activated when actually swinging if they are activated during the heavy weight practice.

Another thing to consider is that there is a certain amount of extra stress put on the lower back by holding a heavy object out in front like that. It is something that I was told to avoid after my back injury several years ago.

The reason that I started thinking about these things is that I noticed a tendency to shank after practicing my golf swing with a 12lb splitting maul. Thinking about it I remembered that Paul Bertholy had the best shank cure that I know of and also that he mentioned that a student who thought about trying to lag the club etc. while playing was liable to shank their way off of the course. Then there are the accounts of Tom on this forum who took instruction from Paul Bertholy and mentioned that Bertholy was aware of a tendency to shank with his method. It makes sense to me that if the muscles used to hold the pipe in the air that I mentioned above were activated during a real swing then possibly the club would move outside just a bit resulting in a heel hit or shank.

That is my shank theory! LOL I have no proof but I think that there is enough there to give a person reason to pause. I see no reason for using extremely heavy swing pipes at any rate. There is a tendency for folks to think that if using a normal weight swing pipe is good then using a really heavy one would have to be better. I think that this not the case! Personally I have switched my swing pipe work to using a cut off shaft with a grip and a very light weight on the clubhead end. I find the process of working out with this swing pipe to very interesting and not really what I might have expected.

Another consideration for me is the possibility that Bob Pritchard at SOMAX is actually onto something with his yip theory. Pritchards theory paraphrased is that tension in the forearms over time will cause a buildup of micro fibers in the muscles that will cause a golfer to yip and otherwise putt poorly. Swinging or working with heavy weighted clubs and pipes would tend to cause the same sort of problems.

One last thought on the shank subject; I have observed that average golfers hit a lot more hosel shots then they realize. LOL next time you make a nice swing and hit a shot that is not completely solid feeling and goes just a bit to the push side (right side for right hander) of the target take a look at the impact point on the club face and at the hosel. There just might be a few dimple marks on the hosel!
Bertholy didn't believe his method created shanking. He believed the late hit for those who were trying to train themselves and tried to force the moves in their swings caused shanking. One of the reasons for the strong extension position with the palm up was to train the forward arm to rotate more rapidly to square the face for the later release of the angle prior to impact. As Tom noted Bertholy suggested using the pipe for the deltoid. This was partially to make the pipe more versatile. He used a ten lb. dumbbell and I use a 12 lb dumbbell. His clubs were ground in the hosel for a reason unknownst to Tom. As a young man trying to build a program he went through a period of shanking. Hence he did everything possible to eliminate the hosel. He did not like the possibility of it getting caught in the rough. He had no fear of his program. One reason he always stressed not thinking of the positions is the propensity to try to delay the release by mental process which is a recipe for disaster. I played golf with him many times per week for 3 plus years. I can assure you he never shanked a shot .

The swing pipe at its heaviest is 5 pounds which only one exists. it was specially made for me. The pro pipe which was the heaviest was approx 3.5 lbs

As for using a heavy club to help build a repeating swing if used properly it doesn't build incorrect swing patterns. Bertholy wasn't alone. Read Kris Tschetter's book. Her teacher filled a persimmon driver with 5 lb of lead and practiced with it. She still has the one he gave her to practice with. He had a pretty good swing. By the way for those not familiar with her teacher his name is Ben Hogan.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 23rd, 2005, 12:18 pm

November 5th, 2010, 4:48 am #8


Thanks for the clarifications Doug. I used the Swing Pipe for positional training indoors. I used a metal horseshoe stake (about 10 pounds) for my Deltoid Lift training. I often used a shovel for outdoor positional training because it taxed the balancing and stabilzing muscles in my feet, legs, hips, and core to the max. Plus, the shovel also strengthened my hand, wrist, and forearm muscles.


Doug - could you say something about the String Ball exercise and Bertholy's ideas about speed in the swing and training for "zip" or "zap"?

Tom
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

November 5th, 2010, 10:31 am #9

Bertholy didn't believe his method created shanking. He believed the late hit for those who were trying to train themselves and tried to force the moves in their swings caused shanking. One of the reasons for the strong extension position with the palm up was to train the forward arm to rotate more rapidly to square the face for the later release of the angle prior to impact. As Tom noted Bertholy suggested using the pipe for the deltoid. This was partially to make the pipe more versatile. He used a ten lb. dumbbell and I use a 12 lb dumbbell. His clubs were ground in the hosel for a reason unknownst to Tom. As a young man trying to build a program he went through a period of shanking. Hence he did everything possible to eliminate the hosel. He did not like the possibility of it getting caught in the rough. He had no fear of his program. One reason he always stressed not thinking of the positions is the propensity to try to delay the release by mental process which is a recipe for disaster. I played golf with him many times per week for 3 plus years. I can assure you he never shanked a shot .

The swing pipe at its heaviest is 5 pounds which only one exists. it was specially made for me. The pro pipe which was the heaviest was approx 3.5 lbs

As for using a heavy club to help build a repeating swing if used properly it doesn't build incorrect swing patterns. Bertholy wasn't alone. Read Kris Tschetter's book. Her teacher filled a persimmon driver with 5 lb of lead and practiced with it. She still has the one he gave her to practice with. He had a pretty good swing. By the way for those not familiar with her teacher his name is Ben Hogan.
Been wondering if "THE MAN" was ever going to weigh in on this ( pun intended ). Thanks for the post and info.

Bertholy was so ahead of his time. We know now from science outside of golf that trying to execute a motor movement by using conscious mental process actually introduces blockers to and inhibits said execution. It's best to leave these to the unconscious part of our system for optimal performance.

Good little tidbit on Hogan and his student! Good to hear from ya Doug!

Kevin

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

November 5th, 2010, 7:08 pm #10

Peter - "It was intended to be largely a 'prop' that would allow you to get into the proper positions that you would with a golf club and a weight for strengthening the lead arm and wrist for release/post release in some exercises."

This is what I was trying to get Herbert to discover by asking him what benefits might be realized by training with a heavy pipe. He offered none. Below is a picture of my two forearms. My left forearm is a full 1 1/4" larger in diameter than my right.



More developed and stronger...since the lead arm is what controls the club, there is benefit to be gained by having a stronger lead arm. Being stronger in the lead side / forearms is one of the main tenets of Bertholy training...it's how you control the club. More strength equals better control... just watch a junior ( or anybody ) swing a club to heavy for his strength...

And of course one must define your terms as Ham has pointed out. What does one mean by heavy? What does one mean by "training". If by training and heavy you mean swinging a 12 pound wood splitter, well yeah maybe so. Perhaps it can lead to the shanks. My swing pipe is about four pounds, and my weighted club is just the "Swing Sock" tour version wrapped to a five iron - about 1 pound. I only use my swing pipe for the first two exercises, and my weighted club for all other drills and overload / heavy training.

But to generalize and make an all inclusive statement that "training with heavy pipes is not good"...well that dog just don't hunt. Though one weekend this August, we cut down a crab apple tree. I spent all afternoon hand splitting the logs. Was tired and sore, but the next day went out and shot a 76 with my future father in law! Didn't even warm up with range balls either. Not one damn lateral...but I missed 5 birdie putts under 10 feet! .

Kevin

"A Blueprint For Golf Excellence"

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Do you think the left forearm is important in pulling the club through, or why do you think the left forearm is so important?

best regards,

ham
Last edited by hammeredit on November 5th, 2010, 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share