The MInimalist Golf Swing from the Inventor

The MInimalist Golf Swing from the Inventor

Joined: October 2nd, 2011, 12:23 am

October 13th, 2011, 3:19 am #1

Whether you like or dislike the ideas behind the Minimalist Golf Swing folks, please do understand that it is completely valid in science and has had years of work -study and research - put into it.

If youve tried it and not liked it, please understand that if it were that simple to convert a bunch or words and a few illustrations into instant improvement, the worlds 40,000 golf teachers would all be unemployed! Consider that your interpretation of what was said may not have been what was meant. Perhaps you could post some pictures of what you attempted so others might comment on whether you got it right in the first place.

I know the word science implies scary, un-natural terms, but it is important for anything to be founded in science and then explained so simply that a 5 year old can understand it.

So, forget the science and ponder upon these 3 questions:
1)Why is football (what I call football, ie soccer) played forwards, not backwards?
2)Why does a cow kick forwards and a horse backwards?
If you attempt to flex your elbow or do a bicep curl, why do you do it most efficiently
in front of your body not to the side?

ALL human movement is best accomplished by placing the bodys joints in positions they are DESIGNED to work most efficiently from, and this, above all else is what the MGS does.

It works because it is as simple and repeatable as the worlds greatest ball-striker (greater even that Moe Norman, ie True tempers machine the Iron Byron). It has the least number of independently moving joints and they are put into positions they can work most efficiently from.

Besides putting the body into positions from which it can do good things, the MGS also prevents the bad things from happening.

This is the simple, non-scientific explanation, and scientific questions very welcome, can give very precise answers.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

October 13th, 2011, 3:26 am #2

does not imply scary and un-natural terms in this forum. If there has been years of research (implying scientific research since you say it is valid in science) then you can post the peer reviewed paper that studies the swing which would be an interesting source for discussion.

BTW - You will find references to and discussion of MANY such papers in this fourm. You will also find discussions of muscle physiology and motor control as well as mathematical models of golf swings and many other aspects of science related to golf.

Peter
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Joined: October 2nd, 2011, 12:23 am

October 13th, 2011, 7:32 am #3

Sorry, my mistake. Have not looked far enough back in the threads to have seen posted research - yours is my absolute favorite kind of forum!

My earlier research (not all published, but written-up none-the-less) on my website www.yourgolfguru.com. One paper remains to be submitted (in collaboration with a biomechanics professor at washington University in St Louis, and golf-industry funded).

A lot of my latest (body-joint-related) concepts have not been scientifically researched, but more than make up for it, because I have worked with all levels of golfers and requested them to allow a before and after video take and permission to put it up on youtube as a purely educational tool. I have also sought a lot of expert opinions from biomechanists and anatomy experts who are also golfers. Dr Jim Suttie 15th ranked golf instructor of USA and with a Ph. D in biomechanics, really liked what I shared with him (youtube.com type in kiran kanwar jim suttie)

Also, if anyone connected with this forum has the ability to fund some research, have hypotheses for many useful-to-know aspects of the golf swing already written-up, ready to go! I have access to a couple of educational Institutions with departments in research, IRB, ability to source appropriate subjects and would be happy to volunteer my time for free.
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Joined: October 2nd, 2011, 12:23 am

October 13th, 2011, 12:18 pm #4

does not imply scary and un-natural terms in this forum. If there has been years of research (implying scientific research since you say it is valid in science) then you can post the peer reviewed paper that studies the swing which would be an interesting source for discussion.

BTW - You will find references to and discussion of MANY such papers in this fourm. You will also find discussions of muscle physiology and motor control as well as mathematical models of golf swings and many other aspects of science related to golf.

Peter
Please believe that I am not trying to promote MGS 'at all costs', FYI, till Kevin McMullen discovered it and tried it (through my info on youtube and website only), I had not even sold 25 online ebooks in 5 years, because I believe that the proof of the pudding is in the ball-striking, and people will buy it if they like it!

As I am currently in a Masters' in Sports Science Program (just so as to get enough information as to not to give the public anything other than 100% correct information), I have access to all pubmed indexed research, and this summer alone have downloaded over 500 published works on all aspects concerning the golfer.

Also, as I made a slide as part of an important presentation I'll be making next month, which claimed "Under Pressure/mental stress muscle physiology changes and timing may be massed up". So, as I did not wish to later be called on this subject, checked this with my anatomy teacher who also teaches neuro-anatomy at my school. Also had checked it online, link pasted here:

http://scholar.google.co.in/scholar?q=m ... i=scholart
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

October 13th, 2011, 2:17 pm #5

from the first page of your search only seemed to show a change in hemodynamics in a jaw muscle associated with stress. It is a bit of a stretch in my opinion to conclude that that kind of change represents a basic change in muscle physiology (from one of the papers ...... are affected by the sympathetic nervous system (SNS), are thus relevant to muscle physiology and/or hemodynamic changes in jaw muscles... so muscle physiology is not synonymous to hemodynamic) vs a direct effect of hormonal changes due to stress (which did not seem to be measured in many of the studies) which would be normal muscle physiology with those inputs.

I can't answer for what your discussion with your anatomy teacher but it would not be the first time in this forum that there was a miscommunication with an outside expert.

BTW - the fact that beta blockers are used as performance enhancers for athletes under pressure and these effect beta receptors in skeletal muscle is an indication that a major effect of stress is hormonal vs representing a change in basic muscle physiology. Note the summary of 'Adipose tissue and skeletal muscle blood flow during mental stress':

Arterial epinephrine (Epi) and glycerol levels were approximately doubled by stress. beta-Blockade by metoprolol (beta 1-selective) or propranolol (nonselective) attenuated CWT-induced tachycardia similarly. Metoprolol attenuated stress-induced vasodilation in the calf and tended to do so in adipose tissue.

Peter
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

October 13th, 2011, 3:29 pm #6

Sorry, my mistake. Have not looked far enough back in the threads to have seen posted research - yours is my absolute favorite kind of forum!

My earlier research (not all published, but written-up none-the-less) on my website www.yourgolfguru.com. One paper remains to be submitted (in collaboration with a biomechanics professor at washington University in St Louis, and golf-industry funded).

A lot of my latest (body-joint-related) concepts have not been scientifically researched, but more than make up for it, because I have worked with all levels of golfers and requested them to allow a before and after video take and permission to put it up on youtube as a purely educational tool. I have also sought a lot of expert opinions from biomechanists and anatomy experts who are also golfers. Dr Jim Suttie 15th ranked golf instructor of USA and with a Ph. D in biomechanics, really liked what I shared with him (youtube.com type in kiran kanwar jim suttie)

Also, if anyone connected with this forum has the ability to fund some research, have hypotheses for many useful-to-know aspects of the golf swing already written-up, ready to go! I have access to a couple of educational Institutions with departments in research, IRB, ability to source appropriate subjects and would be happy to volunteer my time for free.
I've seen your papers in the proceedings of the WSC but had not mentioned them here for a few reasons:

o The studies do not look at tour pros so there is no validation vs what most would consider optimum

o A 'wider' takeaway is nothing exceptional and is taught by a number of professionals (note that this was also something that Moe did)

o While the golfers averaged a slightly greater distance the results varied widely

I had not seen the European congress paper but when the single digit handicapper in the study hits their 6-iron 137 yards they are clearly not a professional class gofer for the evaluation.

Given that all members here where I've seen reports that have improved their impact position by retaining the angle between their lead arm and club longer (as verified by video) have seen 10 yard or greater distance increases with their irons, there is an easy source for that magnitude of distance increase. To date the only methods that have proven themselves to accomplish this involve the opposite of your process in that wrist cock is set earlier rather than later. Also note that many here also have the experience of setting wrist cock at address (club horizontal) and having that work well for them. In fact the most accomplished tournament golfer that posts here uses that method.

Since your research does not compare a different methodology but rather one methodology vs the golfers 'natural' swing it's not possible to judge your technique vs others. Kevin has noted the distance improvement he gained from Bertholy and he does not report an equivalent effect on distance with the addition of MGS. Unfortunately the process needed to fix the too early 'release' of the golf club with earlier wrist cock that Kevin used to improve his impact position requires either a VERY long study and the alternative which some have used and objectively (video) works (setting wrist cock at address) is one that few would take to the course.

Peter
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Joined: October 2nd, 2011, 12:23 am

October 15th, 2011, 1:18 am #7

from the first page of your search only seemed to show a change in hemodynamics in a jaw muscle associated with stress. It is a bit of a stretch in my opinion to conclude that that kind of change represents a basic change in muscle physiology (from one of the papers ...... are affected by the sympathetic nervous system (SNS), are thus relevant to muscle physiology and/or hemodynamic changes in jaw muscles... so muscle physiology is not synonymous to hemodynamic) vs a direct effect of hormonal changes due to stress (which did not seem to be measured in many of the studies) which would be normal muscle physiology with those inputs.

I can't answer for what your discussion with your anatomy teacher but it would not be the first time in this forum that there was a miscommunication with an outside expert.

BTW - the fact that beta blockers are used as performance enhancers for athletes under pressure and these effect beta receptors in skeletal muscle is an indication that a major effect of stress is hormonal vs representing a change in basic muscle physiology. Note the summary of 'Adipose tissue and skeletal muscle blood flow during mental stress':

Arterial epinephrine (Epi) and glycerol levels were approximately doubled by stress. beta-Blockade by metoprolol (beta 1-selective) or propranolol (nonselective) attenuated CWT-induced tachycardia similarly. Metoprolol attenuated stress-induced vasodilation in the calf and tended to do so in adipose tissue.

Peter
Peter, all valid points. I still have to find time to locate some convincing papers on the muscle physiology bit, which Ive seen!

Ham (response to/from another thread) I have done quite a bit of research, and written it up. Not all of it has been published, but the written up ones are all on my website www.yourgolfguru.com

Until I tied up with a professor at Washinton University in St Louis, I did not realize the importance of a comparison. So, we did some research in 2006 and 2007, comparing an earlier version of MGS with a tried-and-tested method of improving rhythm to improve ball-flight.

Results are to be published, hopefully at the World Scientific Congress of Golf, and/or in the Journal of Applied Biomechanics.

Also, Dr Jim Suttie (see youtube video by typing kiran kanwar jim suttie) has evinced interest in comparing MGS with the Modern Golf Swing (which he is an expert on), and each of us would teach one method. So, there are many plans in the pipeline, although time and funding are the main issues!
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Joined: January 6th, 2004, 8:10 am

October 15th, 2011, 4:43 am #8

Reading the "scientific" basis put forward for this swing reminds me of my prolonged dabble with the Mike Austin swing - full of stuff about compound pivots and multiple levers if I remember correctly. Austin was supposed to have studied something called Kinesiology and made a TV programme wearing a skeleton suit to demonstrate how the body should work during the swing.

Actually the Austin swing is a very good model for a 2 plane swing I reckon. I shall see how much of the MGS I can incorporate into my S+T " bandaid "( thank you for that Peter ) and report back.
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