The ABC's of Graves Golf

The ABC's of Graves Golf

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

April 29th, 2009, 5:43 pm #1

as in "Always Be Closing" they are selling more stuff:

"Maximizing Speed and Distance"

http://www.moenormangolf.com/contents.php?top_cms_id=77

You'd think they would just teach a swing that "maximizes distance" in the first place - YA THINK? NAH! Then they wouldn't be able to release additional DVD's!

I guess they didn't listen to us back during all those convo's about what generates "the majority" of club head speed. Says in the little video this is produced by the hands and arms. Offers as proof his ability to hit a drive 200 yards while seated - 75% of his normal distance. Why sure, that is all the proof you need isn't it? Whew, glad that's settled.




Last edited by mcirishman57 on April 29th, 2009, 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: October 26th, 2007, 12:53 am

April 29th, 2009, 8:48 pm #2

I have spent time and some money with the GGA swing, and have had some success. However, I'm beginning to believe if I buy all the stuff GGA thinks I need to conquer the swing, I will no longer be able to afford to play golf. Must make a decision, more stuff or green fees?

AG
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Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 11:35 am

April 29th, 2009, 10:03 pm #3

as in "Always Be Closing" they are selling more stuff:

"Maximizing Speed and Distance"

http://www.moenormangolf.com/contents.php?top_cms_id=77

You'd think they would just teach a swing that "maximizes distance" in the first place - YA THINK? NAH! Then they wouldn't be able to release additional DVD's!

I guess they didn't listen to us back during all those convo's about what generates "the majority" of club head speed. Says in the little video this is produced by the hands and arms. Offers as proof his ability to hit a drive 200 yards while seated - 75% of his normal distance. Why sure, that is all the proof you need isn't it? Whew, glad that's settled.



In the last three years, I think the Graves Bros. have put together a nice show. They have developed four web sites marketing the Moe style, and there is s TON of FREE information on these sites, including video. One, certainly, cannot fault them for generosity, and a true-hearted (genuine) spirit of helping people swing like Moe.

In addition, I have seen a handful of their students, and they were all SUPERB single axis players, playing into high single digit handicap.

I, myself, have used some of their suggestions, and it has helped me bring my handicap, in competition (league), from a 22 to a 6 in three years. Last year, in league, most of my scores were in the 30's (nine holes), which is incredible for a 67 year old golfer (if I do say so myself!!).

Further, I find no fault with what they sell, and Graves Bros. will even fit you in golf clubs without charge, and they sell name-branded clubs, like Adams (my favorite this year), at prices as low as the lowest I have seen, PLUS, they are custom fitted!!

Their accessory items, like grips, impact bags, and training clubs are all, within the range of competitive prices for items of this type, and they WORK. These accessories do, in fact, help you master the Moe style of swinging.

You can take lessons on-line at very reasonable prices, and, perhaps, most importantly, I have NEVER seen anybody who wasn't pleased with their three day golf schools. Not one person.

Sometimes the truth is elusive, because our own truth is being formed (distorted) through our own judgments. Once you understand the Moe style, you will appreciate what Todd and Tim preach with the motion of the arms. And, yes, the sequence of motion that those arms produce, IS, in fact, the sequence of events producing maximum power for that type of swing.

I will go to bat for Todd and Tim Graves, especially, in the last few years, and I wish them the best of luck in their honesty and forthrightness.







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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

April 29th, 2009, 10:53 pm #4

started with the lower body. Teaching anything else is not teaching a Moe swing.

Peter
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Joined: December 5th, 2002, 1:33 pm

April 30th, 2009, 12:04 am #5

Everybody starts the downswing with the lower body. It's only the thinking that is different. Some think "start with the lower body" and some think "start with the arms". The brain is actually telling you to swing the club (not getting into TGM here). When learning you can think arms or hips or whatever but the brain knows what you are trying to do and the body will respond. Bottom line is that every good swing will have the lower body moving first in the downswing whether you think it's leading or in anticipation of. This is, of course, jmo but it's based on watching a ton of golf swings slowly enough to see this happen.
Jerry
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

April 30th, 2009, 6:19 am #6

as in "Always Be Closing" they are selling more stuff:

"Maximizing Speed and Distance"

http://www.moenormangolf.com/contents.php?top_cms_id=77

You'd think they would just teach a swing that "maximizes distance" in the first place - YA THINK? NAH! Then they wouldn't be able to release additional DVD's!

I guess they didn't listen to us back during all those convo's about what generates "the majority" of club head speed. Says in the little video this is produced by the hands and arms. Offers as proof his ability to hit a drive 200 yards while seated - 75% of his normal distance. Why sure, that is all the proof you need isn't it? Whew, glad that's settled.



Regarding the majority of clubhead speed, I wonder did he swing harder and expend more energy with his arms when he swung while sitting then he normally does while standing?
Is the 200 yards with roll or is it carry?

If 200 yards is 75% of normal distance then his normal shot is 267 (266.667 * .75 = 200) yards. Meaning that the legs provide and extra 67 yards. I know that distance hit is not linear with respect to power input. In other words it takes more then 25% more work to hit the ball that extra 67 yards. The equations and numbers have been discussed here in the past but I don't remember enough to be very specific about it.

It is really interesting to watch his legs working when he does the demo sitting on the chair. To me it looks like the legs are really trying to drive the swing. His torso is also very active though restricted by the fact that he is sitting down. Also when he his hitting balls while standing you can see beautiful leg and body action very much what one would expect from the excellent professional ball striker that he is. If the Graves students learn to swing like Todd then I would say that they are going to be very happy!

Anyway it does not really matter what you think produces power as long as you can do it! Also if you can fly it 270 right down the middle every time then you can play some golf!

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

April 30th, 2009, 12:24 pm #7

as in "Always Be Closing" they are selling more stuff:

"Maximizing Speed and Distance"

http://www.moenormangolf.com/contents.php?top_cms_id=77

You'd think they would just teach a swing that "maximizes distance" in the first place - YA THINK? NAH! Then they wouldn't be able to release additional DVD's!

I guess they didn't listen to us back during all those convo's about what generates "the majority" of club head speed. Says in the little video this is produced by the hands and arms. Offers as proof his ability to hit a drive 200 yards while seated - 75% of his normal distance. Why sure, that is all the proof you need isn't it? Whew, glad that's settled.



I think Graves has helped a ton of folks, their material is solid, well produced, and top quality....though not always technically correct as we have seen from past threads ( "pinching" the ball between the club face and the ground for example) That wasn't the point. The point was them creating another DVD about "increasing distance and speed". It says - "What we have been teaching/offering you is not all that is needed...NOW we are REALLY going to show you how to increase distance." Why the need? Wasn't Volume 1 and 2 "Develop a sound POWERFUL swing of ease" ( $129.95 )of their 7 DVD set good enough? Apparently not. It's just more marketing....to sell more stuff.

If you teach correct swing fundamentals and balance it with a proper mental approach so that the swing becomes a learned habit - you will increase distance and speed. Proper swing fundamentals will enable you to increase distance and speed.

What they are doing would be like Doug coming out with "Golf Swing Construction 101-A: The Bertholy Method Power Swing". This latest release of Graves diminishes the authenticity of their work, and moves them closer to "everyone else" - the school of thought that the work is never finished, so keep coming back and buy more instruction..."I will get better, if I just get one more DVD, yeah, this is the answer, I KNEW there was more to it, I can't wait to order this next DVD! Now I'll hit far!"

Speaking of Bertholy, in the "Drills To Better Speed" mini video, he demonstrates Bertholy's Rifle Barrel position, and calls it his "post impact drill" and mentions how Moe used to show him this drill.
Last edited by mcirishman57 on April 30th, 2009, 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

April 30th, 2009, 12:49 pm #8

Everybody starts the downswing with the lower body. It's only the thinking that is different. Some think "start with the lower body" and some think "start with the arms". The brain is actually telling you to swing the club (not getting into TGM here). When learning you can think arms or hips or whatever but the brain knows what you are trying to do and the body will respond. Bottom line is that every good swing will have the lower body moving first in the downswing whether you think it's leading or in anticipation of. This is, of course, jmo but it's based on watching a ton of golf swings slowly enough to see this happen.
Jerry
The 'not good' golf swings I've seen on video show that more than 1/3 of ams move their arms before their lower bodies and none move their lower bodies as far in advance of their arms as Moe does. IMO thinking about moving your arms first will only be successful if you fail terribly at it.

Peter
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

April 30th, 2009, 12:52 pm #9

Regarding the majority of clubhead speed, I wonder did he swing harder and expend more energy with his arms when he swung while sitting then he normally does while standing?
Is the 200 yards with roll or is it carry?

If 200 yards is 75% of normal distance then his normal shot is 267 (266.667 * .75 = 200) yards. Meaning that the legs provide and extra 67 yards. I know that distance hit is not linear with respect to power input. In other words it takes more then 25% more work to hit the ball that extra 67 yards. The equations and numbers have been discussed here in the past but I don't remember enough to be very specific about it.

It is really interesting to watch his legs working when he does the demo sitting on the chair. To me it looks like the legs are really trying to drive the swing. His torso is also very active though restricted by the fact that he is sitting down. Also when he his hitting balls while standing you can see beautiful leg and body action very much what one would expect from the excellent professional ball striker that he is. If the Graves students learn to swing like Todd then I would say that they are going to be very happy!

Anyway it does not really matter what you think produces power as long as you can do it! Also if you can fly it 270 right down the middle every time then you can play some golf!

Regards, Herbert
if your rotate your shoulders those muscles are not in your arms. Also the muscles that lower your upper arm are not in your arms. Sitting is dramatic but to demonstrate the theory that the arms and hands provide most of the power you need to strap the individual to a flat surface so they can't rotate their shoulders and apply a local anesthetic to the pecs and lats. That's a swing I'd like to see on video

Peter
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

April 30th, 2009, 12:55 pm #10

I think Graves has helped a ton of folks, their material is solid, well produced, and top quality....though not always technically correct as we have seen from past threads ( "pinching" the ball between the club face and the ground for example) That wasn't the point. The point was them creating another DVD about "increasing distance and speed". It says - "What we have been teaching/offering you is not all that is needed...NOW we are REALLY going to show you how to increase distance." Why the need? Wasn't Volume 1 and 2 "Develop a sound POWERFUL swing of ease" ( $129.95 )of their 7 DVD set good enough? Apparently not. It's just more marketing....to sell more stuff.

If you teach correct swing fundamentals and balance it with a proper mental approach so that the swing becomes a learned habit - you will increase distance and speed. Proper swing fundamentals will enable you to increase distance and speed.

What they are doing would be like Doug coming out with "Golf Swing Construction 101-A: The Bertholy Method Power Swing". This latest release of Graves diminishes the authenticity of their work, and moves them closer to "everyone else" - the school of thought that the work is never finished, so keep coming back and buy more instruction..."I will get better, if I just get one more DVD, yeah, this is the answer, I KNEW there was more to it, I can't wait to order this next DVD! Now I'll hit far!"

Speaking of Bertholy, in the "Drills To Better Speed" mini video, he demonstrates Bertholy's Rifle Barrel position, and calls it his "post impact drill" and mentions how Moe used to show him this drill.
Moe did:



To bad the source was not correctly identified.

Peter
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