Saturday Questions...

Saturday Questions...

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

December 27th, 2008, 6:25 pm #1

Hello Folks,

I am a hack who has tried a lot of swing methods and pretty much failed in one area at all of them. That problem is an early release leading to poor impact position. Only very rarely have I achieved correct impact position yet it is something that I was taught by pros and have worked to achieve in various ways for many years.

It seems that guys like Tom Sanders, The Graves brothers, Scott Hazledine, Ham and other pros reach proper impact position without even thinking about it. Why is that? Is good impact and late hit position something that only expert players achieve? Do any mid handicap students of the above teachers routinely get there? Anybody have photos of such? I know that McIrishman has conquered this problem mostly through Bertholy training, I am curious if anyone else here has reached the holy land? If so how did yow did you do it?

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: July 22nd, 2008, 10:35 pm

December 27th, 2008, 9:01 pm #2

After buying the Stack & Tilt DVDs I realized I had misunderstood the term "release". Holding the angle of the wrist (flying wedge) from setup through impact has been the single most important impovement I have made. For the first time I am much more consistant in getting the face square at impact. This also greatly helps from hitting the ball fat or thin.

It works for me anyway!

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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

December 27th, 2008, 11:54 pm #3

Hello Folks,

I am a hack who has tried a lot of swing methods and pretty much failed in one area at all of them. That problem is an early release leading to poor impact position. Only very rarely have I achieved correct impact position yet it is something that I was taught by pros and have worked to achieve in various ways for many years.

It seems that guys like Tom Sanders, The Graves brothers, Scott Hazledine, Ham and other pros reach proper impact position without even thinking about it. Why is that? Is good impact and late hit position something that only expert players achieve? Do any mid handicap students of the above teachers routinely get there? Anybody have photos of such? I know that McIrishman has conquered this problem mostly through Bertholy training, I am curious if anyone else here has reached the holy land? If so how did yow did you do it?

Regards, Herbert
that those are few that do it the majority of the time including myself. Didn't you reference Peter's posting of US Open qualifiers that still don't reach this ideal position? Bertholy mentions that very few attain the status of master ball striker, but encouraged everyone to try. You can play scratch golf without being an excellent ball striker, because a scratch short game is within everyone's reach. If you want to achieve late hit status, you just must practice it. IMO, Bertholy gives you the best METHOD AND PRECISE PROGRAMMED INSTRUCTION for acquiring this. If you can do the golden exercise, then you are on your way. These work well with the 32 ball drill when actually hitting balls. I like the whippy club and the speed stick because I can feel and see the results of a poor effort or a great effort.

You are doing IMA drills and Bertholy. Have you begun the golden exercise yet? When I first tried this I couldn't even do 2 outa 10. For practicing a full swing there are other mental swign thoguhts that may work. One that works for me is to keep the space between the trail shoulder and the shaft as small as possible for as long as possible when making a swing. Another one is to keep the back of the lead hand facing the sky as long as possible into the down swing. A third is the pump drill and the pool of water. Imagine you are standing in a pool of water belt high. Form keystone and swing to the top. Maintain keystone and perform the master movement stopping with your hands just as they "hit the surface of the water". They should hit the surface of the water first, and the shaft should still be angled way up. Return to the top, and pump down again. Return and pump again. Each time performing the master movement per Bertholy with the trail elbow seeking the navel and the butt of the club pointing at the target line. A fourth drill is swing to the top, and hold, then complete your swing, maintaining keystone all the way down to 6/100 - Tiger says he hates this drill cause you "can't cheat at it".

All these above are just mental imagery tricks to aid you in the process. But Herbert, there is no easy way. You just have to put in the work. The highly desirted "lead and lag" is possible but only if you apply yourself. Consider this as proof - Very few "teaching pros" teach the late hit, and how to acquire a swing that will will lag the club....ever wonder why? Perhaps they know that the average golfer will just not "get it", or they believe it is beyond their normal student. But I gurantee I could take you to my range, and we could audit the lessons for a day, a week, a month, and these PGA pro's that charge $45 an 1/2 hour will not give their students 1/5 the tool's they need to improve that Bertholy does in his first three programs. You just must allow time for filtering and as Todd and Rem have said enjoy the process.

Or as Moe said - "A man can cheat at most things and gain, but to acquire the golf swing, a man must work!"
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Joined: February 14th, 2006, 1:33 am

December 28th, 2008, 3:21 am #4

Hello Folks,

I am a hack who has tried a lot of swing methods and pretty much failed in one area at all of them. That problem is an early release leading to poor impact position. Only very rarely have I achieved correct impact position yet it is something that I was taught by pros and have worked to achieve in various ways for many years.

It seems that guys like Tom Sanders, The Graves brothers, Scott Hazledine, Ham and other pros reach proper impact position without even thinking about it. Why is that? Is good impact and late hit position something that only expert players achieve? Do any mid handicap students of the above teachers routinely get there? Anybody have photos of such? I know that McIrishman has conquered this problem mostly through Bertholy training, I am curious if anyone else here has reached the holy land? If so how did yow did you do it?

Regards, Herbert
Herbert, I was taught to fix the early release by my teacher. He explained that I was slowing down the grip and letting the club head pass my hands. The fix was to speed up the butt of the grip by pulling it around on the follow through MUCH faster and farther than I ever had before. I know bad habits are hard to break, but this worked for me. My ball flight is more penetrating and it goes about 10 yards farther even though my club head speed is about the same. Hope this helps.
otha
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Joined: January 28th, 2003, 12:59 pm

December 28th, 2008, 5:40 pm #5

that those are few that do it the majority of the time including myself. Didn't you reference Peter's posting of US Open qualifiers that still don't reach this ideal position? Bertholy mentions that very few attain the status of master ball striker, but encouraged everyone to try. You can play scratch golf without being an excellent ball striker, because a scratch short game is within everyone's reach. If you want to achieve late hit status, you just must practice it. IMO, Bertholy gives you the best METHOD AND PRECISE PROGRAMMED INSTRUCTION for acquiring this. If you can do the golden exercise, then you are on your way. These work well with the 32 ball drill when actually hitting balls. I like the whippy club and the speed stick because I can feel and see the results of a poor effort or a great effort.

You are doing IMA drills and Bertholy. Have you begun the golden exercise yet? When I first tried this I couldn't even do 2 outa 10. For practicing a full swing there are other mental swign thoguhts that may work. One that works for me is to keep the space between the trail shoulder and the shaft as small as possible for as long as possible when making a swing. Another one is to keep the back of the lead hand facing the sky as long as possible into the down swing. A third is the pump drill and the pool of water. Imagine you are standing in a pool of water belt high. Form keystone and swing to the top. Maintain keystone and perform the master movement stopping with your hands just as they "hit the surface of the water". They should hit the surface of the water first, and the shaft should still be angled way up. Return to the top, and pump down again. Return and pump again. Each time performing the master movement per Bertholy with the trail elbow seeking the navel and the butt of the club pointing at the target line. A fourth drill is swing to the top, and hold, then complete your swing, maintaining keystone all the way down to 6/100 - Tiger says he hates this drill cause you "can't cheat at it".

All these above are just mental imagery tricks to aid you in the process. But Herbert, there is no easy way. You just have to put in the work. The highly desirted "lead and lag" is possible but only if you apply yourself. Consider this as proof - Very few "teaching pros" teach the late hit, and how to acquire a swing that will will lag the club....ever wonder why? Perhaps they know that the average golfer will just not "get it", or they believe it is beyond their normal student. But I gurantee I could take you to my range, and we could audit the lessons for a day, a week, a month, and these PGA pro's that charge $45 an 1/2 hour will not give their students 1/5 the tool's they need to improve that Bertholy does in his first three programs. You just must allow time for filtering and as Todd and Rem have said enjoy the process.

Or as Moe said - "A man can cheat at most things and gain, but to acquire the golf swing, a man must work!"
PPIC works. If you forget what PPIC is go to you Bertholy Manual.
If you go to page 70 you'll see Paul's Ode to Golf . In his poem you find "Moe's words." As a matter of fact Lorne Rubinstein, the Canadian writer authored a book about various golfers and golf topics. In his section on Moe he mentions Paul and Paul's poem.

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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

December 28th, 2008, 10:05 pm #6

Hello Folks,

I am a hack who has tried a lot of swing methods and pretty much failed in one area at all of them. That problem is an early release leading to poor impact position. Only very rarely have I achieved correct impact position yet it is something that I was taught by pros and have worked to achieve in various ways for many years.

It seems that guys like Tom Sanders, The Graves brothers, Scott Hazledine, Ham and other pros reach proper impact position without even thinking about it. Why is that? Is good impact and late hit position something that only expert players achieve? Do any mid handicap students of the above teachers routinely get there? Anybody have photos of such? I know that McIrishman has conquered this problem mostly through Bertholy training, I am curious if anyone else here has reached the holy land? If so how did yow did you do it?

Regards, Herbert
The ONLY training I've found that focuses in a practical way on achieveing proper impact is Bertholy. EVERY other systemeither does not address HOW or has significant mumbo-jumbo about how that I (and some others here) found not only did not work but made the problem worse.

Fundamentally you need to keep your trail arm bent longer than it wants to stay bent. In my experience the faster you move the more likely and sooner your trail arm will straighten. This gets to Bertholy and PT. PT is likely MUCH slower than is normal for you. Any iota faster than allows you to get to proper impact is too fast. Try my 4.5 drill and see how impact looks on video. The results of that drill will tell you exactly the source of the problem.

4.5 bypasees the Master Move giving you a bit of a cheat on PSM. It is much harder to get to the starting position of 4.5 (the Master Move) than to complete the swing from that point.

Peter
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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

December 28th, 2008, 11:08 pm #7

Hello Folks,

I am a hack who has tried a lot of swing methods and pretty much failed in one area at all of them. That problem is an early release leading to poor impact position. Only very rarely have I achieved correct impact position yet it is something that I was taught by pros and have worked to achieve in various ways for many years.

It seems that guys like Tom Sanders, The Graves brothers, Scott Hazledine, Ham and other pros reach proper impact position without even thinking about it. Why is that? Is good impact and late hit position something that only expert players achieve? Do any mid handicap students of the above teachers routinely get there? Anybody have photos of such? I know that McIrishman has conquered this problem mostly through Bertholy training, I am curious if anyone else here has reached the holy land? If so how did yow did you do it?

Regards, Herbert
http://www.golftipsmag.com/instruction/ ... ntact.html

There are two pages to it- probaly nothing new, but may be
worth a look.

JC
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Joined: August 15th, 2000, 1:37 am

December 29th, 2008, 1:50 am #8

Hello Folks,

I am a hack who has tried a lot of swing methods and pretty much failed in one area at all of them. That problem is an early release leading to poor impact position. Only very rarely have I achieved correct impact position yet it is something that I was taught by pros and have worked to achieve in various ways for many years.

It seems that guys like Tom Sanders, The Graves brothers, Scott Hazledine, Ham and other pros reach proper impact position without even thinking about it. Why is that? Is good impact and late hit position something that only expert players achieve? Do any mid handicap students of the above teachers routinely get there? Anybody have photos of such? I know that McIrishman has conquered this problem mostly through Bertholy training, I am curious if anyone else here has reached the holy land? If so how did yow did you do it?

Regards, Herbert
Hi H
I'm with Peter - almost all of the teachers, books etc ever did me any good and oh how I tried. I always lost the angle in the last 90*
Only Bertholy/Dunigan worked. Video essential.
I had to make sure I actually had a wrist break at the top and my hands were on the shaft plane coming down (from behind).
Then I dug 50-100 left arm divots a day for 2 weeks.
Then video and ball flight and distance showed I was there - a tremendous difference in impact position.
Doing the divots, you also realise how weak your fingers and arm are.
Finally, a Bertholy sun behind you deal to keep your head still.

I still marvel how still the peak of pros caps are coming down - very rarely mentioned by the TV boys.
Good luck - p
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

December 29th, 2008, 3:53 pm #9

http://www.golftipsmag.com/instruction/ ... ntact.html

There are two pages to it- probaly nothing new, but may be
worth a look.

JC
it's unfortunate that such articles that do have value continue to reinforce beliefs that are clearly false:

This is a must if you hope to compress the ball (squeeze it between the clubface and the ground)...

High speed video like 'SwingVison' clearly show that the ball is never squeezed between the clubface and the ground despite how it might feel.

Peter
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Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

December 29th, 2008, 4:56 pm #10

Hello Folks,

I am a hack who has tried a lot of swing methods and pretty much failed in one area at all of them. That problem is an early release leading to poor impact position. Only very rarely have I achieved correct impact position yet it is something that I was taught by pros and have worked to achieve in various ways for many years.

It seems that guys like Tom Sanders, The Graves brothers, Scott Hazledine, Ham and other pros reach proper impact position without even thinking about it. Why is that? Is good impact and late hit position something that only expert players achieve? Do any mid handicap students of the above teachers routinely get there? Anybody have photos of such? I know that McIrishman has conquered this problem mostly through Bertholy training, I am curious if anyone else here has reached the holy land? If so how did yow did you do it?

Regards, Herbert
Herbert,

Here is a link to a video of my swing taken today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp5msN4MMbs

You should be able to pause the video and see the positions I am in. I will post some stills as well here.

I read a lot of good advice here about how to attain the desired pro impact position. I have helped teach many of my students to get there, but it is almost never easy.

I think impact backwards drill is a VERY good drill, maybe the best I know of. I like the Bertholy material very much as well. I also think working on taking divots after the ball is very good practice, as well as trying to hit low punch shots. A good place to work on divots and low punches is in a fairway bunker if one is available to you.

I think one reason many never attain the pro impact position is because of too weak of a leading hand grip. I also think standing too far away can make it very difficult to accomplish. The leading hand grips of most of the best players today is considerably stronger then they used 10 to 15 years ago. Look at videos of the best players on youtube. You need to fit your grip to your desired impact position so that the club is square with your hands ahead, without having to also try and manually close the clubface.


Setup


Takeaway



Top of swing



Downswing


.06


Impact


Post Impact

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Best Regards,

Ham
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