Same lie angle?

Same lie angle?

Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 11:35 am

November 14th, 2008, 4:21 pm #1

I was reading something, recently, by Mark Evershed, who noticed that Moe's clubs (irons) all have the same upright lie, i.e., the degree of bend between the shaft and clubhead. The uniform lie allows Moe to place every club at the same angle, which means that he is the same distance from the ball every time.

Evershed: "With conventional clubs, our visual centre changes for each club because of the different lies, but Moe's visual center stays constant.

AFter all these years, I never knew this!! I have always sought an explantion as to how he can swing all of his clubs to impact in the same number of frames, and this idea would explain that....at least I think it would.

In addition, he ground the bottoms of his clubs flat, taking out the first groove....man that's a lot of weight...no wonder he loaded up with lead tape.

If I am reading this, correctly, Moe is choosing a distance from the ball (to make it uniform), like with six iron (I'm making that up), and then bending his 3 iron way up, and his 9 iron down in order to get them to lay flat to the ground at the six iron distance from the ball?

Anybody want to comment on this? I find this hard to believe!! Sounds logical.



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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

November 14th, 2008, 9:59 pm #2

than standard? I noticed when watching some video of
Moe hitting irons that he seemed to Choke down on some of
his clubs- can you stand the same distance from the ball
with different Length clubs?

JC
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Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 11:35 am

November 14th, 2008, 11:22 pm #3

I was reading something, recently, by Mark Evershed, who noticed that Moe's clubs (irons) all have the same upright lie, i.e., the degree of bend between the shaft and clubhead. The uniform lie allows Moe to place every club at the same angle, which means that he is the same distance from the ball every time.

Evershed: "With conventional clubs, our visual centre changes for each club because of the different lies, but Moe's visual center stays constant.

AFter all these years, I never knew this!! I have always sought an explantion as to how he can swing all of his clubs to impact in the same number of frames, and this idea would explain that....at least I think it would.

In addition, he ground the bottoms of his clubs flat, taking out the first groove....man that's a lot of weight...no wonder he loaded up with lead tape.

If I am reading this, correctly, Moe is choosing a distance from the ball (to make it uniform), like with six iron (I'm making that up), and then bending his 3 iron way up, and his 9 iron down in order to get them to lay flat to the ground at the six iron distance from the ball?

Anybody want to comment on this? I find this hard to believe!! Sounds logical.


I just looked at my Moe tape, and his distance from the ball varies with each club. Anybody have any ideas of what Evershed is talking about with this point?
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gsw
Joined: July 27th, 2000, 11:22 pm

November 15th, 2008, 4:54 am #4

I was reading something, recently, by Mark Evershed, who noticed that Moe's clubs (irons) all have the same upright lie, i.e., the degree of bend between the shaft and clubhead. The uniform lie allows Moe to place every club at the same angle, which means that he is the same distance from the ball every time.

Evershed: "With conventional clubs, our visual centre changes for each club because of the different lies, but Moe's visual center stays constant.

AFter all these years, I never knew this!! I have always sought an explantion as to how he can swing all of his clubs to impact in the same number of frames, and this idea would explain that....at least I think it would.

In addition, he ground the bottoms of his clubs flat, taking out the first groove....man that's a lot of weight...no wonder he loaded up with lead tape.

If I am reading this, correctly, Moe is choosing a distance from the ball (to make it uniform), like with six iron (I'm making that up), and then bending his 3 iron way up, and his 9 iron down in order to get them to lay flat to the ground at the six iron distance from the ball?

Anybody want to comment on this? I find this hard to believe!! Sounds logical.


The guy who sells the one clubs with all the irons the same length and with the same angle for all clubs 3 through pw.


Stan
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

November 15th, 2008, 3:57 pm #5

I was reading something, recently, by Mark Evershed, who noticed that Moe's clubs (irons) all have the same upright lie, i.e., the degree of bend between the shaft and clubhead. The uniform lie allows Moe to place every club at the same angle, which means that he is the same distance from the ball every time.

Evershed: "With conventional clubs, our visual centre changes for each club because of the different lies, but Moe's visual center stays constant.

AFter all these years, I never knew this!! I have always sought an explantion as to how he can swing all of his clubs to impact in the same number of frames, and this idea would explain that....at least I think it would.

In addition, he ground the bottoms of his clubs flat, taking out the first groove....man that's a lot of weight...no wonder he loaded up with lead tape.

If I am reading this, correctly, Moe is choosing a distance from the ball (to make it uniform), like with six iron (I'm making that up), and then bending his 3 iron way up, and his 9 iron down in order to get them to lay flat to the ground at the six iron distance from the ball?

Anybody want to comment on this? I find this hard to believe!! Sounds logical.


I am pretty sure that Moe did not do that. My understanding is that he fooled around with same length and lie angle clubs for a while and then gave up on it as a bad idea.

You can try it but I don't think that you will be comfotable standing far from the ball on chip and pitch shots.

I would like to say though that the expert club fitter that I talked to years ago who had fitted thousands of golfers said that standard lie angle change of 1 degree per half inch is not correct anyway. I have found this to be true in my own swing doing dynamic lie angle testing.

I don't think 0 degree change is going to be correct either. I think that such a setup will require compensatory moves that will simply make the game more difficult.

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

November 15th, 2008, 4:24 pm #6

Another thing that I forgot to mention above is that you will not end up standing the same distance from the ball with all clubs. An easy way to test this is to take a long iron and set up normally. Then move your hands down the grip without changing the lie of the club. You will most likely find yourself shuffling closer to the ball while compensating with your arms and body.

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 11:35 am

November 15th, 2008, 7:13 pm #7

I am pretty sure that Moe did not do that. My understanding is that he fooled around with same length and lie angle clubs for a while and then gave up on it as a bad idea.

You can try it but I don't think that you will be comfotable standing far from the ball on chip and pitch shots.

I would like to say though that the expert club fitter that I talked to years ago who had fitted thousands of golfers said that standard lie angle change of 1 degree per half inch is not correct anyway. I have found this to be true in my own swing doing dynamic lie angle testing.

I don't think 0 degree change is going to be correct either. I think that such a setup will require compensatory moves that will simply make the game more difficult.

Regards, Herbert
I don't understand Evershed on this one either.
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Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

November 17th, 2008, 10:02 am #8

I am pretty sure that Moe did not do that. My understanding is that he fooled around with same length and lie angle clubs for a while and then gave up on it as a bad idea.

You can try it but I don't think that you will be comfotable standing far from the ball on chip and pitch shots.

I would like to say though that the expert club fitter that I talked to years ago who had fitted thousands of golfers said that standard lie angle change of 1 degree per half inch is not correct anyway. I have found this to be true in my own swing doing dynamic lie angle testing.

I don't think 0 degree change is going to be correct either. I think that such a setup will require compensatory moves that will simply make the game more difficult.

Regards, Herbert
Here is how Mizuno and to my knowledge all the top club makers deliver clubs.

Club Loft ° Lie ° Length
3 21 59.5 38.75"
4 24 60.0 38.25"
5 27 60.5 37.75"
6 31 61.0 37.25"
7 35 61.5 36.75"
8 39 62.0 36.25"
9 43 62.5 35.75"
PW 47 63.0 35.50"

For each 1/2" shorter the lie needs to be .5 degrees more upright. This is why the stories of Moe using all the same lie angles cannot be true. His clubs were not the same length so it is not possible. I have fit a lot of clubs also and when adjusting lie angle it always works well using the .5 degree difference per club as in the Mizuno specs above.

Best Regards,

Ham
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Joined: April 22nd, 2004, 9:58 pm

November 17th, 2008, 12:23 pm #9

Club Hand Loft ° Lie ° Offset mm
3 RH 21 59 3.5 1
4 RH 24 60 3 2
5 RH 28 61 3 2
6 RH 32 61.5 2.5 2
7 RH 36 62 2.5 2
8 RH 40 63 2 3
9 RH 44 64 2 3
PW RH 48 64 2 4
AW RH 52 64 2 5
SW RH 55 64 2 11

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Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

November 18th, 2008, 7:49 am #10

to make an accurate comparison.

Ham

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