Joined: 12:18 PM - Jan 23, 2005

10:45 PM - Dec 05, 2008 #41

how many of you genteleman had a chance to play golf with Moe. I did on more than one occasion. The first time was in 1979 or 1980 and he had already won a Canadian Senior PGA. The irons he had at that time were different legnths. They were not ground down on the sole to the first scoring line and he told me they had a S/W of E8. They were a Spalding
custom blade with a squrish toe. I hit the 9 iron and it was solid.

His grips at that time were not overly wide but they had very little taper. This was at Foxfire where I worked with Bertholy.

In 1999 or 2000 when on the NG staff his playing clubs away from the NG galleries were a set of the most beautiful Titliest irons I had ever seen. He told me they from the Tour Dept. They were not single legnth either. The grips he liked at that time came from Kenneth Smith. This was in Titusville with his good friend and top Canadian amateur Nick Weslock.
Hi Doug - Do you recall whether Paul Bertholy modified his playing clubs? I remember handling only his special wedge from which he had ground off a lot of the hosel and had added lead to the back. I think he had filed off a lot of the bounce as well.

As for Moe's grips, I've read that he preferred a wrapped rubber grip. Now that you report that he got his grips from Kenneh Smith I'm wondering whether Moe's grips were the Goodwin Grip, the best grips I ever used. They consisted of a tapered strip of rubber with a very rough texture. You could wrap them to conform to any shape you wanted over any underlisting. But I haven't seen the Goodwin Grip offered by any manufacturer or component distributor in 20 years.

Thanks for your input.

Tom
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Joined: 11:35 AM - Sep 22, 2006

11:28 PM - Dec 05, 2008 #42

Great to have a first hand report.

BTW - For those that don't know Doug he is the source for 'Golf Swing Construction 101' which is the publishing of Paul Bertholy's method. Bertholy was Moe's instructor for about 20 years until Paul passed away.

Peter
You know, Peter, I have always wondered about Moe and Bertholy. Moe liked to memorize and quote from the various golf instructors that he met, and he, immensely, enjoyed quoting Bertholy.

However, Moe didn't meet Bertholy until well after his playing career, as a young man, was over. Moe was about 50 years old, when he met Bertholy...that's a guess, but would be, relatively, accurate.

So I think we can, safely, say, based on Doug's admission that Moe didn't use one length or lie in his golf clubs at age 50...about 1979 or 1978. Further video that I have seems to indicate that in 1985 (age 56)or so that Moe was not using clubs of the same length.

A lot of people can't put this timeline together, in that Moe was 20 in 1949!! The period I would like to see, if he was using same-length clubs is in 1949 to about 1960.

Some people think that Bertholy influenced Moe, when, in fact, Moe's career, as a young man, was over by the time he met Bertholy, and his swing was imbedded.

Moe went on to have a fabulous senior career. My question for Doug was did Bertholy really influence Moe's swing that much, did he change Moe's swing?

In order to get a true picture of Moe's swing, should we be looking pre 1978 or so?

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Joined: 12:00 AM - Jan 01, 1970

4:54 PM - Dec 06, 2008 #43

I have a photos of Moe going back to late 50s/early 60s that indicate irons of different lengths.

As I've also posted a while back I compared video of Moe from the late 50s/early 60s vs later, Bertholy period, video and there was a change in Moe's swing with a longer transition which is consistant with Bertholy's teaching.

Peter
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Joined: 6:27 AM - Jul 25, 2000

6:51 PM - Dec 06, 2008 #44

You know, Peter, I have always wondered about Moe and Bertholy. Moe liked to memorize and quote from the various golf instructors that he met, and he, immensely, enjoyed quoting Bertholy.

However, Moe didn't meet Bertholy until well after his playing career, as a young man, was over. Moe was about 50 years old, when he met Bertholy...that's a guess, but would be, relatively, accurate.

So I think we can, safely, say, based on Doug's admission that Moe didn't use one length or lie in his golf clubs at age 50...about 1979 or 1978. Further video that I have seems to indicate that in 1985 (age 56)or so that Moe was not using clubs of the same length.

A lot of people can't put this timeline together, in that Moe was 20 in 1949!! The period I would like to see, if he was using same-length clubs is in 1949 to about 1960.

Some people think that Bertholy influenced Moe, when, in fact, Moe's career, as a young man, was over by the time he met Bertholy, and his swing was imbedded.

Moe went on to have a fabulous senior career. My question for Doug was did Bertholy really influence Moe's swing that much, did he change Moe's swing?

In order to get a true picture of Moe's swing, should we be looking pre 1978 or so?
Been a while

In keeping with the open mind philosophy I made a call to a fellow here in town (Saskatoon as you know) that was on my old ball team. He caddied for Moe when he was approximately 14 yrs. old and is 52 years old at the present (you do the math). He recanted the following info:

-Saskatchewan Open at Riverside G&CC in Saskatoon.

-all clubs were stock with the exception of a wedge where the bounce was filed but lead tape was added.

-Moe was in final foursome but didn't win.

-Moe went into the club house after the round unhappy with this fellows caddying. Moe thought he was too slow (remember we've always heard how Moe liked to play fast). After his patience ran out this fellow asked a tournament official to go get Moe so that he could be paid. Moe eventually made his way out and squared up the debt.

I tried to fish him for more club info but he didn't recall that Moe's clubs were out of the ordinary. Take it for what it's worth ... just another Moe story. Unfortunately, nobody documented any details.

..trench

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Joined: 12:59 PM - Jan 28, 2003

11:40 PM - Dec 07, 2008 #45

Hi Doug - Do you recall whether Paul Bertholy modified his playing clubs? I remember handling only his special wedge from which he had ground off a lot of the hosel and had added lead to the back. I think he had filed off a lot of the bounce as well.

As for Moe's grips, I've read that he preferred a wrapped rubber grip. Now that you report that he got his grips from Kenneh Smith I'm wondering whether Moe's grips were the Goodwin Grip, the best grips I ever used. They consisted of a tapered strip of rubber with a very rough texture. You could wrap them to conform to any shape you wanted over any underlisting. But I haven't seen the Goodwin Grip offered by any manufacturer or component distributor in 20 years.

Thanks for your input.

Tom
Remington asked how much of an influence was Paul on Moe. When I visited Moe in Titusville the meeting was set up by Moe's best and closest friend of nearly 50 years Nick Weslock.

Th reason Moe alowed his picture in Golf Swing Construction 101 is because of my tie to Bertholy. On the 9th hole at the Canadian Golf club in Titusville with Moe in the cart with him ,Nick Weslock said he wished had a chance to meet Paul and that "Paul was Moe's golf guru". So how much influence Paul had on Moe you be the judge. By the way Moe met Paul in the 1950's. Moe was a friend of Leo Biagetti who Paul and Missi Bertholy had a hand in raising. It was Paul who taught Leo as a young man. It was through Leo that Paul and Moe met. According to Paul at that time Leo and Moe would stop at Paul's driving range and hit balls. Then later when Moe was older the connection was re established. Moe had very high praise for Leo's ability as a pure ball striker.

To answer your question Tom, Paul customized everthing. This guy was way ahead of the manufacturers. For those who never met Paul he was pushing5'6". His longest iron at that time(1980) was a 5 iron. He played his irons about 1.5 inches over standard legnth to create a longer arc. He made each iron about 2 degrees strong. He bought a muscleback iron from Hornung golf and ground the heel and put on a 4 way camber while all other clubs of the time were usually pretty square soled. He did this to minimize the drag of the iron in the turf and the rough. His also ground them down to get them back into a d2-5 S/W

His driver was 46" laminated maple. He took the sole plate off removed the lead plug in the head and replaced it with steel wool to get the S/W back into line. He did this with his 4 and 5 wood. His 4 wood was the longest fairway wood I have ever hit.

His sand wdege was probably one of the fist lob wedges. It is the one club of his I got after he passed. It is a PGA Lady Contessa Sw with he bent to be very weak. Approx 59 degrees which he did by eyes sight not a Loft lie gage. He wanted the lady version to get a weaker shaft for the soft shots to be played with the club.
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Joined: 12:59 PM - Jan 28, 2003

11:48 PM - Dec 07, 2008 #46

Goodwin grips are name Moe used and said they were special order from Kenneth Smith. I never checked it out.
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Joined: 12:18 PM - Jan 23, 2005

1:18 AM - Dec 08, 2008 #47


Yes, Kenneth Smith offered the Goodwin rubber wrapped grip as an option on its custom clubs. If you don't use a glove like me, you either need to develop very tough skin or else you need to use a hold that doesn't slip at all in your hands.

Tom
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Joined: 12:18 PM - Jan 23, 2005

1:43 AM - Dec 08, 2008 #48

Remington asked how much of an influence was Paul on Moe. When I visited Moe in Titusville the meeting was set up by Moe's best and closest friend of nearly 50 years Nick Weslock.

Th reason Moe alowed his picture in Golf Swing Construction 101 is because of my tie to Bertholy. On the 9th hole at the Canadian Golf club in Titusville with Moe in the cart with him ,Nick Weslock said he wished had a chance to meet Paul and that "Paul was Moe's golf guru". So how much influence Paul had on Moe you be the judge. By the way Moe met Paul in the 1950's. Moe was a friend of Leo Biagetti who Paul and Missi Bertholy had a hand in raising. It was Paul who taught Leo as a young man. It was through Leo that Paul and Moe met. According to Paul at that time Leo and Moe would stop at Paul's driving range and hit balls. Then later when Moe was older the connection was re established. Moe had very high praise for Leo's ability as a pure ball striker.

To answer your question Tom, Paul customized everthing. This guy was way ahead of the manufacturers. For those who never met Paul he was pushing5'6". His longest iron at that time(1980) was a 5 iron. He played his irons about 1.5 inches over standard legnth to create a longer arc. He made each iron about 2 degrees strong. He bought a muscleback iron from Hornung golf and ground the heel and put on a 4 way camber while all other clubs of the time were usually pretty square soled. He did this to minimize the drag of the iron in the turf and the rough. His also ground them down to get them back into a d2-5 S/W

His driver was 46" laminated maple. He took the sole plate off removed the lead plug in the head and replaced it with steel wool to get the S/W back into line. He did this with his 4 and 5 wood. His 4 wood was the longest fairway wood I have ever hit.

His sand wdege was probably one of the fist lob wedges. It is the one club of his I got after he passed. It is a PGA Lady Contessa Sw with he bent to be very weak. Approx 59 degrees which he did by eyes sight not a Loft lie gage. He wanted the lady version to get a weaker shaft for the soft shots to be played with the club.
Thanks for the additional information Doug. Here's a little followup that some may find interesting:

1) Bertholy liked to ask questions when he was teaching. Among the hundred or so he asked me was, "What is the most important aspect of a golf club?" As in all of Paul's questions, the student had to guess forever until he would give the right answer. A lot of times the incorrect guesses would send Paul off into a separate topic for awhile, but he would always return to the original question. In the case of the golf club question, I remember answering with notions like "flex", "balance", "swingweight", "lengt", almost anything in order to get it over with so we could go on to something I was more interested in. As it was, I had repaired clubs for over a decade at that time and I was well versed in naerly all aspects of club building. I had experimented with nearly every feature of golf clubs imaginable, taking most elements to wild extremes just to see what happened. So, it really didn't surprise me when Paul finally said that "The most important thing about a golf club is 'fit'. If the club doesn't fit you it isn't any good."

2) Concerning Leo B. who you mentioned as the one who first introduced Moe to Bertholy. That must have been during the Sandusky, Ohio years. I clearly recall that Paul mentioned with great sadness that he once taught "the best boy golfer in the world." Paul said his name was Leo Biagetti. When he spoke of Leo, there was a deep sadness and regret in his voice. Paul said that "Leo was a casualty of the War - very sad - the best boy golfer in the world." Naturally, I thought that this leo fellow had been killed in the Korean War. Not wanting to prolong a clearly upsetting topic, I didn't pursue it. What more can one say? It wasn't until about 10 years ago that I encountered a twist on Paul's story. I'm a golf history and memorabilia buff. One day a dealer was offering original score cards from a 1957 or 1958 PGA tournament. I think it was the Western Open. I was shocked to see that one of the contestants' cards bore the name of Leo Biagetti! I bought that card and it's now packed away somewhere in my attic. That's why I can't remembe for sure the particulars of the event. But what is evident is that Leo "the best boy golfer in the world" was not a "casualty of the War" in the sense that Paul had led me to believe. Perhaps you know the full story?

3) As far as Moe Norman is concerned, Paul never let on to me in 1989 that he taught Moe. Paul said that the best ball striker in the world wasn't Hogan and wasn't Moe. Rather, he said that George Knudsen was the finest ball striker. As for Moe, Paul said Moe was "a very kind and simple soul, like a child really." And he said that with great affection. But I didn't know at that time the close connection between the two.

Thanks again Doug,

Tom
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Joined: 11:35 AM - Sep 22, 2006

4:43 AM - Dec 12, 2008 #49


Been a while

In keeping with the open mind philosophy I made a call to a fellow here in town (Saskatoon as you know) that was on my old ball team. He caddied for Moe when he was approximately 14 yrs. old and is 52 years old at the present (you do the math). He recanted the following info:

-Saskatchewan Open at Riverside G&CC in Saskatoon.

-all clubs were stock with the exception of a wedge where the bounce was filed but lead tape was added.

-Moe was in final foursome but didn't win.

-Moe went into the club house after the round unhappy with this fellows caddying. Moe thought he was too slow (remember we've always heard how Moe liked to play fast). After his patience ran out this fellow asked a tournament official to go get Moe so that he could be paid. Moe eventually made his way out and squared up the debt.

I tried to fish him for more club info but he didn't recall that Moe's clubs were out of the ordinary. Take it for what it's worth ... just another Moe story. Unfortunately, nobody documented any details.

..trench
Hey Trench Man, things getting a bit chilly in
Saskatoon!! Temperatures here are getting just a wee-bit below zero during the evening.

Well, according to your story, we can date back to 1970 and say that Moe was using conventional golf clubs (as concerns length and lie).

However, he would have been about 41 at that time, and well past his good playing years.

I would still like to see what he was swing at age 22 or 25.

Good to hear from you.
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Joined: 8:30 AM - Jan 13, 2001

3:55 AM - Dec 19, 2008 #50

Check this out cause it pretty much proves that Moe played single-length clubs with the same lie angles: http://www.voy.com/111513/4114.html
From Graves scrap book site:
http://www.moenorman.org/?moe-scrapbooks



Regards, Herbert
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