SA swing. How do you control trail elbow/arm?

SA swing. How do you control trail elbow/arm?

Joined: October 14th, 2007, 1:46 pm

August 5th, 2010, 2:47 pm #1

In the good good old days I used a simple SA setup. The basic problems I had were releasing too early and a "out to in" swing. This was mainly due to a dominate trail side. The ball flight was either a fade or a slight slice. It was manageable and I played by aiming more left. The distance suffered greatly and was the main reason I walked away from this swing. Like most folks I tried many other types of swings from LPG to S&T.

My question is,

If I go back to the simple SA method and just let my trail side be the dominate force in my swing, how do I stop my trail elbow from flying out? It is a big issue with me.

Thanks
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 5th, 2010, 3:02 pm #2

Bertholy reflected that the problem with the trail arm is not that it's active but that for most it's active in the wrong way. Your trail arm needs to be trained to be active in the correct way.

IMA is quite specific that the trial arm does not 'piston' (extend) until after 6/100s of a second before impact when the club is parallel to the target line. This means that your trail arm is fully bent at elbow and wrist 6/100s of a second before impact. For most people trail arm dominance will not result in this but rather a trail arm that they extend too soon.

I've found in practice and in science that it's impossible to have your trail arm in the correct position 6/100s of s second before impact AND THEN actively extend it. Rather you need to keep the bend and the extension happens on its own. The correct dominant trail side is one that retains that bend until 6/100s.

So it is a matter of training and likely thinking something different in terms of trail arm dominance.

It should also be noted since Moe is the archetype for SA that he focused on his lead arm.

Peter
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Joined: October 14th, 2007, 1:46 pm

August 6th, 2010, 1:29 am #3

Thanks for the response.

Overcoming the trail side dominance in my swing is something I have been working on most of my golfing life. I always had a very hard time trying to eliminate my trail side as the source of power. As you know, it causes many issues in the swing from over the top to releasing too early.

I thought that perhaps I should just stop fighting the trail side hitting tendency and just go with it. I will just have to work around the issues. Or is this a futile attempt?

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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 6th, 2010, 3:30 am #4

Most people who say they consider their trail arm as the source of power in a golf swing mean that they should forcefully 'hit' (straighten at elbow and wrist) with it. There is no way this will produce a good full golf swing (e.g. under plane and impact position with hands ahead).

Consider that Hogan said he wished he had 3 right hands and that you hit as hard with the right hand as with the left however through impact his arm retained an apx 90 deg bend at the elbow. His concept of 'hitting hard' was not the same as that of most people.

So you can use your trail arm as a source of power BUT your concept of what that means likely needs to be different.

Peter

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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

August 6th, 2010, 10:01 am #5

Thanks for the response.

Overcoming the trail side dominance in my swing is something I have been working on most of my golfing life. I always had a very hard time trying to eliminate my trail side as the source of power. As you know, it causes many issues in the swing from over the top to releasing too early.

I thought that perhaps I should just stop fighting the trail side hitting tendency and just go with it. I will just have to work around the issues. Or is this a futile attempt?
You just gotta train:





Eventually it will show up in a real swing, the left is before training and the right is after:



Get a hold of Bertholy's book or mine and apply the principles and exercises found there. By the way, a flying elbow isn't bad...ask Jack...IF it gets back to where it needs to be for a good impact position!

Kevin

"A Blueprint For Golf Excellence"

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
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Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

August 6th, 2010, 1:42 pm #6

Thanks for the response.

Overcoming the trail side dominance in my swing is something I have been working on most of my golfing life. I always had a very hard time trying to eliminate my trail side as the source of power. As you know, it causes many issues in the swing from over the top to releasing too early.

I thought that perhaps I should just stop fighting the trail side hitting tendency and just go with it. I will just have to work around the issues. Or is this a futile attempt?
the principles of Bertholy to my golfing friends, they usually are skeptical at first. I find it illuminating to use an example of throwing a baseball to help them understand.

First I have them imagine that they are holding a baseball in their dominant throwing hand and I tell them to wind up and pretend to throw it. I then demonstrate it myself and explain what's happening. Almost all males have the same kind of throw. They wind up, start with the legs, rotate the hips hard, and then move the throwing elbow forward while the throwing hand stays back (maintaining a full bend in their throwing elbow and wrist.) The last action is of the hand coming forward, after the elbow has reached its maximum excursion forward, and the wrist snapping as the hand releases the ball.

I then have them switch the imaginary ball to their non-dominant throwing hand and pretend to throw it again. All of the non ambidextrous folks perform the same kind of throw with their non-dominant side. They wind up, the legs and the hips remain stationary, the throwing hand and shoulder are thrust forward, the throwing elbow stays back and the arm/wrist are straightened. The result is a powerless throw with poor direction that looks a lot like a shot put throw, with the legs and hips reacting to the action of the arm/shoulder (so they don't fall over.)

When I explain to them that the non-dominant side baseball throw is exactly how they are currently swinging a golf club, and that the dominant side baseball throw is how they should be swinging a golf club correctly, the light bulb goes off. When you throw a baseball are you using a lot of force in your dominant shoulder/arm/hand? You bet, but it is a very different type of action then what you are used to with a non-dominant side throw. Are you trying to straighten your throwing arm when you hurl a baseball? Absolutely not! But it happens anyway ... at the last possible second.

Programs like Bertholy or Blueprint will train you how to make that dominant side baseball style throwing action with a golf club. It won't be quick. Just think how long it would take you to learn how to throw a baseball with your non dominant side as proficiently and thoughtlessly as your dominant side.
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Joined: October 14th, 2007, 1:46 pm

August 6th, 2010, 8:13 pm #7

I know nothing about Bertholy. Is the philosophy is to used your trail (dominate) side or your lead (non dominate) side. The reason I ask is that I have tried very hard to use my lead side working on it constantly. The swing works well for awhile but breaks down when I get a little tired.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 6th, 2010, 9:22 pm #8

The philosophy of Bertholy is to train each side to do what it is supposed to do. Bertholy is more a series of exercises vs a 'swing' per se.

Peter
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gsw
Joined: July 27th, 2000, 11:22 pm

August 8th, 2010, 4:56 am #9

In the good good old days I used a simple SA setup. The basic problems I had were releasing too early and a "out to in" swing. This was mainly due to a dominate trail side. The ball flight was either a fade or a slight slice. It was manageable and I played by aiming more left. The distance suffered greatly and was the main reason I walked away from this swing. Like most folks I tried many other types of swings from LPG to S&T.

My question is,

If I go back to the simple SA method and just let my trail side be the dominate force in my swing, how do I stop my trail elbow from flying out? It is a big issue with me.

Thanks
I have tried time after time to use a left hand dominant golf swing and it simply will not work for me. I feel as if the right hand takes the club away and returns the club with the left hand only holding on to the club very strongly. I know that this is not the norm, but that is the only swing that works for me.



Stan
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Joined: December 5th, 2002, 1:33 pm

August 8th, 2010, 1:31 pm #10

I would suggest you continue to do this if you find you cannot swing any other way, especially if you can get around the course and score decently. I don't know your age but for myself, in my mid sixties, I really just don't care to put in the required time and dedication to learning too many other things. I would rather just go out and enjoy myself. But though I am not a long ball hitter (my normal drives are around 250) nor a super low handicapper (up from a 6 to a 10 from not playing much this summer)I feel that my length is adequate and my abilities will enable me to bring my handicap back down to a reasonable level. But I can guarantee you one thing and that is that I will never have a tour level swing. Kudos to those who achieve this but I am content to play the way that I do. btw, I use what Graves teaches but with a NG type grip due to a bad right hand. I'm sure video of me would not look too pretty (I guess I should shoot some) but I'm still enjoying myself. It's like Moe said, "I don't have to play well, I'll still play tomorrow if I don't". This was from the Fireside Chat video where he was talking about the difference between having to do something and wanting to do something. And fwiw, there are more than a few who swing with the though of the trail side in the lead role. Play well.
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