Power

Power

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

April 5th, 2010, 5:08 pm #1

Take a look at Mr. Palmer:


I am thinking that the clubshaft is pretty close to parallel down the line here. The angle between Palmer's lead arm and the shaft is rather large while the trail arm is bent and the the trail wrist is bent back a lot.

So my theory is that the angle between lead arm and shaft is not really as important as the angles retained in the trail arm. One thought is that that a one handed trail hand swing will hit the ball further then a one handed lead arm swing. In other words a forehand stroke is more powerful in general then a backhand stroke.

I am just think'n out loud here so take it easy on me and let me know what you think!

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

April 5th, 2010, 7:22 pm #2

point about lead arm/club shaft angles here.

The real importance comes at impact. Look at the photo's I published here. Having the hands in front of the ball at impact and the trail wrist still bent one or two frames after impact is a better indicator of how well you've conserved angular momentum and made good ball contact, then any snapshot of the angles before impact.

I think it interesting that you've used "hitting" metaphors to describe angle retention. As we know from Bertholy, you must purge the "hit impulse" to be able to retain the angles you've pointed out. Ultimately, I think that anyone who tires to employ a "forehand stroke" or a "backhand stroke" in their golf swing will fail at accomplishing the type of angle retention that Palmer and all tour pro's exhibit. It's a lesson I keep learning over and over again as I go through my Bertholy training.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

April 6th, 2010, 3:58 am #3

Take a look at Mr. Palmer:


I am thinking that the clubshaft is pretty close to parallel down the line here. The angle between Palmer's lead arm and the shaft is rather large while the trail arm is bent and the the trail wrist is bent back a lot.

So my theory is that the angle between lead arm and shaft is not really as important as the angles retained in the trail arm. One thought is that that a one handed trail hand swing will hit the ball further then a one handed lead arm swing. In other words a forehand stroke is more powerful in general then a backhand stroke.

I am just think'n out loud here so take it easy on me and let me know what you think!

Regards, Herbert
'Parallel down the line' is a phrase that Scott uses to describe the club being parallel to the target line (not the ground). This is not a view that allows you to tell if the club is 'parallel down the line'.

'Retaining the angle' is relevant to achieving a correct impact position and higher club head speed at impact. While the angle between Palmer's lead arm and club may be 'large' in the minds of some the key for impact position is will his hands move from this position to in front of the ball before impact. The position shown is one I've seen in video of a number of ams and the answer to that question for them was 'No'; they needed their hands to be further forward with the club horizontal and that means that the angle between lead arm and club needed to be smaller.

Peter
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

April 6th, 2010, 6:11 am #4

I used the term parallel down the line because if the shaft is parallel to the target line then the angle between lead arm and shaft is probably very close to what it appears to be. If the shaft is not parallel to the target line then the angle could be considerably distorted.

Do the ams that you mention have the same (as good) of trail arm position as Palmer has here?

There is a relation to swing plane that has an effect on the angle I think. Possibly the flatter the plane the more obtuse the angle between lead arm and shaft at this point in the swing...

Regards, Herbert

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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

April 6th, 2010, 1:20 pm #5

If the shaft is horizontal the angle between lead arm and shaft will not be distorted even if it's not parallel. Tour pros often do not have the shaft parallel near the point shown in the photo but instead have the clubhead inside a line parallel to the target line.

The ams I mentioned pretty much look like Palmer in the photo you posted but their trail elbow/hands do not move far enough forward in time to achieve a good impact position.

Peter
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Joined: March 25th, 2003, 7:50 am

April 8th, 2010, 2:03 am #6

Peter said: "The ams I mentioned pretty much look like Palmer in the photo you posted but their trail elbow/hands do not move far enough forward in time to achieve a good impact position."

Is it because amateurs stop their body rotation much sooner than pros do? Ams seem to let their arms take over and timing because more of a factor in hitting decent shots. Pros seem to really move their body all the way through the shot which I guess would help to carry their arms and hands to that more forward position. I could be completely wrong on this.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

April 8th, 2010, 6:55 am #7

and some don't. While rotating your body might get your hands further forward it needs to get them there before impact which means the trail arm needs to stay bent. Ams that I've observed on video loose that bend too soon whether they continue to rotate their bodies or not.

Studies have shown that pros slow their hips, shoulders and hands before impact and in that sequence.

Peter
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Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

April 8th, 2010, 1:18 pm #8

most am's use very little body rotation and rely mostly on swinging the arms. IMHO, it is much more difficult to move a bent trail arm into the proper position by using mostly the arms and very little body rotation. It is easier to keep the trail arm/wrist bent and then move that assembly into place using body rotation ... not that there is anything easy about learning how to do this.

You can see that by 6/100 Palmer's lower body is nearly facing the target. And, as Peter points out, his trail arm/hand remain bent as well.

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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

April 8th, 2010, 8:26 pm #9

I posted a little exercise to show how to use your body to move your arms into position with no independent arm motion. While there is some rotation it is not primarily a rotational movement that requires either hips or shoulders to be open to the target at impact. McIrishman has noted this basic action as well. You can choose to swing the arm 'assembly' independent of the body but that is not required.

Peter
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Joined: March 25th, 2003, 7:50 am

April 9th, 2010, 4:15 am #10

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