Peter i have been reading the Bertholy method(1) that you kindly

Peter i have been reading the Bertholy method(1) that you kindly

Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

August 16th, 2008, 7:28 pm #1

brought together for me and i imagine for some other posters
not here all those years ago and it is very enjoyable to read.

You and a guy named Ty got into it a bit and Mr.CHazman showed him
no mercy whatever, .

From one of your posts "What is 'Proper Tempo'
May 1 2002 at 2:13 PM Peter (Login PD)


Response to The Bertholy Method ( I )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

POSITION 4. THE MASTER POSITION. The movement from Position 3 to 4, I refer to as the "MASTER MOVEMENT". This is the most difficult part of the Golf swing to learn, for it is here that there must be total rejection of all-instinctive action. At this critical point in all Golf swings there is a tremendous urge to "Pour the Power On". This must be avoided at all costs. Instead, there must be a concerted effort to do the opposite. One must cultivate the non-instinctive. E_A_S_Y, L_A_Z_Y, G_E_N_T_L_E start down of the Golf stroke. One way of developing this is to have a three second Tempo Takeaway to start the club head away from the ball at the outset of the back swing.This will help to set the Proper Tempo, the highly sought E_A_S_Y start down from the top of the back swing. Take the club head away from the ball gently and start the club in the down stroke in the same smooth, gentle manner. There must be enough time at the top top of the backstroke foe a smooth "Shifting of the Gears", a nice gentle switch of direction from back swing to downswing allowing for the back swing to be completed before the downswing is started.

A few questions if i may.

1. Have you found a new or better way to make this most difficult part
of the golf swing or perhaps a bit easier?

2.The lead knee movement that some players use in the down swing-
is it a little bump left and is there a slight squat motion with it
as well?

3.Would you have been able to make the progress you have so far with
Bertholy, if you had only had Doug's book to work with?

4.I am having some trouble following some of this material, much less
doing it . Would Doug's book make it a bit easier for me to follow
along? Well that's about it for now- i feel so guilty asking so many
questions and i, like everyone else around here- almost everyone-
really admire your hard work and dedication. I think you would be
a good golf teacher. Peter would you loan me 25 bucks to buy Doug's book?

5.What ever happened to TY? HE made the posts interesting and i respect
him for having different points of view, but you can take that kind
of thing too far-- except and this is a big except --for Mr.Chazman. I
would not change him or his attitudes for anything.

ONE more quick question- WOULD question number 2 be any help for question
number 1


JC

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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 16th, 2008, 11:10 pm #2

1. Have you found a new or better way to make this most difficult part
of the golf swing or perhaps a bit easier?


I've found a 'feel' which I've described in another forum that helps me with proper tempo.

2.The lead knee movement that some players use in the down swing-
is it a little bump left and is there a slight squat motion with it
as well?


You don't actually 'squat' but the position after the movement of the lead knee looks as though you did.

3.Would you have been able to make the progress you have so far with
Bertholy, if you had only had Doug's book to work with?


Yes. There is nothing in Bertholy's original that is not in Doug's book and Doug's book has a key drill that is not in the edition of Bertholy's original that I have.

4.I am having some trouble following some of this material, much less
doing it . Would Doug's book make it a bit easier for me to follow
along?


Doug's book will make it MUCH easier to follow along. That was Doug's goal and he succeeded and without any adulteration of the material.

Sorry but I can't loan the $25 right now. My house is done but so is my wallet

Peter
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Joined: January 23rd, 2005, 12:18 pm

August 17th, 2008, 5:03 am #3

brought together for me and i imagine for some other posters
not here all those years ago and it is very enjoyable to read.

You and a guy named Ty got into it a bit and Mr.CHazman showed him
no mercy whatever, .

From one of your posts "What is 'Proper Tempo'
May 1 2002 at 2:13 PM Peter (Login PD)


Response to The Bertholy Method ( I )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

POSITION 4. THE MASTER POSITION. The movement from Position 3 to 4, I refer to as the "MASTER MOVEMENT". This is the most difficult part of the Golf swing to learn, for it is here that there must be total rejection of all-instinctive action. At this critical point in all Golf swings there is a tremendous urge to "Pour the Power On". This must be avoided at all costs. Instead, there must be a concerted effort to do the opposite. One must cultivate the non-instinctive. E_A_S_Y, L_A_Z_Y, G_E_N_T_L_E start down of the Golf stroke. One way of developing this is to have a three second Tempo Takeaway to start the club head away from the ball at the outset of the back swing.This will help to set the Proper Tempo, the highly sought E_A_S_Y start down from the top of the back swing. Take the club head away from the ball gently and start the club in the down stroke in the same smooth, gentle manner. There must be enough time at the top top of the backstroke foe a smooth "Shifting of the Gears", a nice gentle switch of direction from back swing to downswing allowing for the back swing to be completed before the downswing is started.

A few questions if i may.

1. Have you found a new or better way to make this most difficult part
of the golf swing or perhaps a bit easier?

2.The lead knee movement that some players use in the down swing-
is it a little bump left and is there a slight squat motion with it
as well?

3.Would you have been able to make the progress you have so far with
Bertholy, if you had only had Doug's book to work with?

4.I am having some trouble following some of this material, much less
doing it . Would Doug's book make it a bit easier for me to follow
along? Well that's about it for now- i feel so guilty asking so many
questions and i, like everyone else around here- almost everyone-
really admire your hard work and dedication. I think you would be
a good golf teacher. Peter would you loan me 25 bucks to buy Doug's book?

5.What ever happened to TY? HE made the posts interesting and i respect
him for having different points of view, but you can take that kind
of thing too far-- except and this is a big except --for Mr.Chazman. I
would not change him or his attitudes for anything.

ONE more quick question- WOULD question number 2 be any help for question
number 1


JC
I learned the Bertholy Method from Paul's original manual. I worked very, very hard on the drills. After four years (from age 34 to age 38) in which my swing completely transformed I visited Paul Bertholy at his home studio in North Carolina. He gave me a few adjustments to work on but confirmed that I had indeed developed what he termed "a fine Bertholy swing". So, I think what I have to say about the Bertholy Method carries some weight.

First, the Bertholy Method is not an "instant winner" of a swing. In fact, it's best not to consciously even use the Bertholy Method when you play golf. Work on the drills 'til it hurts but play golf with the only thought being flighting the ball to the target, and let the chips fall where they may. The Bertholy Method will slowly filter into your swing over time as its benefits become useful to you on the course.

Second, for me, the feeling of a complete Bertholy swing became apparent initially in the short irons. The Driver was the last club that got incorporated. I think it had something to do with becoming skilled enough and strong enough to handle the increased length and anti-leverage problems presented by the longer clubs. But once mastered, all the clubs felt the same and the swing was the same for all clubs, the 2-iron being no more difficult to hit than the wedge.

Third, Bertholy said that very few of his students ever learn the Master Move to the Master Position, which is the Holy Grail of golf. He didn't say why that was the case, nor could he predict who would advance to that level and who would not. He only encouraged everyone to keep trying and not to berate ourselves, not ever, no matter what. "Every day is the best day of my life." ... PB. The Bertholy Method is about "what to do" and never about "what not to do". Paul never uttered a discouraging word during his instruction and he never said anything like "that's wrong". He simply helped his students to identify and access a proven correct developmental process.

Lastly, if you do Bertholy, don't put a time frame on it. Paul said that everyone who follows the Method advances and that's what it's all about. "Only the lazy fail" ... PB.

Good luck!

Tom
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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

August 17th, 2008, 6:11 pm #4

You said in your post
Bertholy said that very few of his students ever learn the Master Move to the Master Position, which is the Holy Grail of golf.

Tom can you tell me what that move is in a non technical
easy to understand fashion- i don't mean an easy way to do it
i know their isn't one. Between you and Peter i hope to get a little better understanding of this swing- it may just be a waste of my time
and physical issues may stop me anyway, but where in the swing does
the master move begin and what do you do to get there?

JC
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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

August 17th, 2008, 6:36 pm #5

1. Have you found a new or better way to make this most difficult part
of the golf swing or perhaps a bit easier?


I've found a 'feel' which I've described in another forum that helps me with proper tempo.

2.The lead knee movement that some players use in the down swing-
is it a little bump left and is there a slight squat motion with it
as well?


You don't actually 'squat' but the position after the movement of the lead knee looks as though you did.

3.Would you have been able to make the progress you have so far with
Bertholy, if you had only had Doug's book to work with?


Yes. There is nothing in Bertholy's original that is not in Doug's book and Doug's book has a key drill that is not in the edition of Bertholy's original that I have.

4.I am having some trouble following some of this material, much less
doing it . Would Doug's book make it a bit easier for me to follow
along?


Doug's book will make it MUCH easier to follow along. That was Doug's goal and he succeeded and without any adulteration of the material.

Sorry but I can't loan the $25 right now. My house is done but so is my wallet

Peter
Peter in doing all these drills and things; and i think it is
great that you have done so well with them.

I know you would be the first to say Bertholy
is not the only way to swing a golf club-

All these young kids that can hit the ball a mile
and are fantastic players probally never heard of Bertholy
and never tried any of his drills and from what you and
Tom say border on torture.

Yet they must have what Bertholy wanted in a swing to be
so good. Where did they get it,and where can i buy some?

Do you think it's just a natural inborn ability or
is it possible to play fantastic golf without making
the moves that Bertholy considered essential?

JC

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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 18th, 2008, 12:32 am #6

and your aren't.

Bertholy was explicit that while kids might be able to learn via mimicry that the skill to do so was lost in adults. I would add that even among kids not all learn correctly even when they mimic. There are probably some small fraction of golfers who's natural swing was correct though Hogan said 'Show me a natural golf swing and I'll show you a bad golf swing.'

If you are able to consistently get your hands ahead of the ball by impact then you have achieved a large part of Bertholy's goal. However given the experience of some others here I'd only trust that you are if you can see it clearly in video.

Peter
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Joined: January 23rd, 2005, 12:18 pm

August 18th, 2008, 5:20 am #7

You said in your post
Bertholy said that very few of his students ever learn the Master Move to the Master Position, which is the Holy Grail of golf.

Tom can you tell me what that move is in a non technical
easy to understand fashion- i don't mean an easy way to do it
i know their isn't one. Between you and Peter i hope to get a little better understanding of this swing- it may just be a waste of my time
and physical issues may stop me anyway, but where in the swing does
the master move begin and what do you do to get there?

JC
Bertholy seemed to be saying that the ability to do the Master Move to the Master Position simply happens for some of his students as they continue to train. Those who never attain it can still benefit imensely from the Bertholy Method, but they will still suffer from the "hit impulse" to some degree. So, my thinking is that the Master Move occurs when there is zero "hit impulse" remaining in the swing.

You say that you know there isn't an easy way to achieve the Master Move to the Master Position. For those who can do it, I think it is very easy, much easier than any "hit impulse" swing.

This aspect of the Bertholy Method has been discussed at some length in this forum in the past. Peter has recently provided some early (2002) links. I recall contributing my understanding sometime in 2005. I even posted a photo sequence of me doing my version of a Bertholy swing in ultra slow-motion. I also described in depth what I consider to be the keys to achieving Bertholy's Master Move, a carefully orchestrated and sequenced set of specific muscle antagonisms (oppositions) which I think could be learned by anyone who is healthy and possesses perseverence. Unfortunately, as Peter has indicated, the forum archives are no longer searchable, so all the good stuff that members have posted here over the years is effectively hidden from view. I love the archives!

You asked where in the swing the Master Move begins. IMO, its initiation coincides (or perhaps trails by a whisker) with the initial movement of the left knee.

When I did Bertholy exercises and drills in his studio, Bertholy would talk non-stop, uttering encouragements and catchy phrases about golf, the golf swing and life, over and over again. He thought human beings were creatures of habit and if so, why not instill good habits in body and mind through repetition - he said that we were no different than Pavlov's dogs except that we could laugh about it! Much of the time while he was talking he himself was placing his body into Bertholy positions, his favorite being the Master Move to the Master position, over and over again using his lead weighted wedge.

Tom
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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

August 18th, 2008, 6:10 pm #8

THANKS Tom, i sure would like to see your slowmo photo's
and your detailed explanation of achieving the master move.

One thing that confuses me is when you say; So, my thinking is that the Master Move occurs when there is zero "hit impulse" remaining in the swing.

There are other swing methods that have no zero hit impulse issues.

John Redman's- your arms and hands just hang there dead so to
speak and you pivot you body, mostly hips and the arms and hands just go along for the ride.
I spent a lot of time at the range doing John's swing and the good
old hit impulse was never part of the problem- if anything there
was a lack of anything like that and my biggest problem with
the swing was (is) lack of distance.
Another guy, and people usually roll their eyes when you mention
him- Ike Handy -certainly had a no hit impulse swing.

ANYWAY i forgot what i was asking you.. With all the swing methods
out there, you have Bertholy down when there is zero "hit impulse" remaining in the swing, but not all swing methods have that problem
to deal with. YES OR NO?.

JC
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 18th, 2008, 6:47 pm #9

Bertholy's position is that everyone has a hit impulse so there is no such thing as a 'no hit impulse swing'. The three symptoms of hit impulse are not taught as part of any swing (except LPG).

A Redman swing is as susceptable to hit impulse as any other. Tour pros are also susceptable to hit impulse as was dramatically demonstarated in the Masters a while back ("I couldn't get inside all day.").

The vertical drop of Keystone (Master Move to Master Position) means there was no symptoms of hit impulse on that swing but that does not mean you're cured of the disease

Peter
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Joined: January 23rd, 2005, 12:18 pm

August 18th, 2008, 11:10 pm #10

THANKS Tom, i sure would like to see your slowmo photo's
and your detailed explanation of achieving the master move.

One thing that confuses me is when you say; So, my thinking is that the Master Move occurs when there is zero "hit impulse" remaining in the swing.

There are other swing methods that have no zero hit impulse issues.

John Redman's- your arms and hands just hang there dead so to
speak and you pivot you body, mostly hips and the arms and hands just go along for the ride.
I spent a lot of time at the range doing John's swing and the good
old hit impulse was never part of the problem- if anything there
was a lack of anything like that and my biggest problem with
the swing was (is) lack of distance.
Another guy, and people usually roll their eyes when you mention
him- Ike Handy -certainly had a no hit impulse swing.

ANYWAY i forgot what i was asking you.. With all the swing methods
out there, you have Bertholy down when there is zero "hit impulse" remaining in the swing, but not all swing methods have that problem
to deal with. YES OR NO?.

JC
As I recall, Handy said that it was "the damxed ball" that caused him to flinch, or as Bertholy would say to reactively engage a "hit impulse". Handy said that he could swipe through a field of daisies without a problem but that as soon as a golf ball appeared somehow he became traumatized. So, Handy tried to find a way to swing at a golf ball just like he swung at daisies. Apparently he succeeded, but I think he ended up with a less than powerful swing and that he had to use the same pace all the time. Please correct me if I have mis-spoken about Mr. Handy or his method - it's been a long time since I read his books.

As for Redmond, if your arms remain as passive as you say they do, then its no wonder that your Redmond swing lacks authority. Bertholy does not teach passive arms. I will grant you though that if your arms and hands are "dead" then you can't have a "hit impulse". I think that any swing theory that uses the hands and/or arms actively at all must find a way to deal with the "hit impulse".

Tom
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