Peter, i came across this site and wonder if it conflicts with

Peter, i came across this site and wonder if it conflicts with

Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

November 24th, 2008, 8:06 pm #1

what you say about a lower body move before
the back swing is completed.

I am paticularly interested in the last sentence
in relation to our posts on this subject.

There is much more info on the site, but i
just copied some info about the back
swing and transtition.

http://www.truegolfswing.com/biomechanics.html

Biomechanics Of The Golf Swing
Biomechanics is the study of human movement.

Using this definition in golf, it is essentially studying how the body moves when swinging a golf club. Biomechanics is the study of what the skeleton, muscles, and nerves of the body do when hitting a golf ball. There are actually people out there that make a living studying these movements, they are called Biomechanists. And the great thing about golf is that there have been a ton of scientific studies on the golf swing. In addition, this research has allowed biomechanists to create a model of the optimal swing in the sport of golf.

All of this research has been beneficial to the golf industry. It has provided club manufacturers, swing coaches, trainers, and players with an abundant amount of knowledge to improve the game in many areas.

Biomechanics of the Golf Swing Stage by Stage

Most biomechanists break the golf swing down into phases.

We will talk about the swing into the following phases: 1) address, 2) back swing, 3) transition, 4) down swing, 4) contact, 5) follow through, 6) finish. I will also relate what the body does during each of these phases, which muscles are active, and any additional information applicable to biomechanical study of the golf swing.

Key points from a biomechanical analysis of the back swing are: as the club moves backwards shear force is applied to anterior portion of the right foot, at the same time a posterior shear force is applied to the left foot (Fleisig, Biomechanics of Golf). This is the beginning of torque development in the body that will be transitioned into the club head at impact. Rotation of the knees, hips, spine, and shoulders continues during the back swing creating additional torque to be translated into the club head in later stages of the swing. The important point to remember in the back swing is that the entire rotation of these body parts occurs around an imaginary axis of the body. EMG activity is moderate during this stage of the swing as a result that the body during this portion of the toring energy that e transition point of the swing is where the body finishes its backward movement and begins the forward movement of the swing. The best reference point of when the transition stage of the swing begins is when weight shift onto the inside of the right foot (right-handed golfer) is completed and movement back towards the left foot begins. The transition in terms of a time frame is very short and is completed when weight transfer begins to move forward, and the club completes its movement backwards. Research states that the transition of the swing is where additional elastic energy is stored within the body. This is a result of the lower body moving forward and the upper body still coiling backward.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

November 25th, 2008, 3:22 am #2

of 'science' posted without reference. The site is a mix of a limited set of study references with interpretations done in a way that make it not clear which is which at times. For example the site says:

Research states that the transition of the swing is where additional elastic energy is stored within the body. This is a result of the lower body moving forward and the upper body still coiling backward.

This statement does not have a reference. Is it from a study or the authors opinion?

Beyond that you need to be specific about where you think the site says something that conflicts with something I've said. I have little patience for digging through pseudo-science.

Peter
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

November 25th, 2008, 3:53 am #3

what you say about a lower body move before
the back swing is completed.

I am paticularly interested in the last sentence
in relation to our posts on this subject.

There is much more info on the site, but i
just copied some info about the back
swing and transtition.

http://www.truegolfswing.com/biomechanics.html

Biomechanics Of The Golf Swing
Biomechanics is the study of human movement.

Using this definition in golf, it is essentially studying how the body moves when swinging a golf club. Biomechanics is the study of what the skeleton, muscles, and nerves of the body do when hitting a golf ball. There are actually people out there that make a living studying these movements, they are called Biomechanists. And the great thing about golf is that there have been a ton of scientific studies on the golf swing. In addition, this research has allowed biomechanists to create a model of the optimal swing in the sport of golf.

All of this research has been beneficial to the golf industry. It has provided club manufacturers, swing coaches, trainers, and players with an abundant amount of knowledge to improve the game in many areas.

Biomechanics of the Golf Swing Stage by Stage

Most biomechanists break the golf swing down into phases.

We will talk about the swing into the following phases: 1) address, 2) back swing, 3) transition, 4) down swing, 4) contact, 5) follow through, 6) finish. I will also relate what the body does during each of these phases, which muscles are active, and any additional information applicable to biomechanical study of the golf swing.

Key points from a biomechanical analysis of the back swing are: as the club moves backwards shear force is applied to anterior portion of the right foot, at the same time a posterior shear force is applied to the left foot (Fleisig, Biomechanics of Golf). This is the beginning of torque development in the body that will be transitioned into the club head at impact. Rotation of the knees, hips, spine, and shoulders continues during the back swing creating additional torque to be translated into the club head in later stages of the swing. The important point to remember in the back swing is that the entire rotation of these body parts occurs around an imaginary axis of the body. EMG activity is moderate during this stage of the swing as a result that the body during this portion of the toring energy that e transition point of the swing is where the body finishes its backward movement and begins the forward movement of the swing. The best reference point of when the transition stage of the swing begins is when weight shift onto the inside of the right foot (right-handed golfer) is completed and movement back towards the left foot begins. The transition in terms of a time frame is very short and is completed when weight transfer begins to move forward, and the club completes its movement backwards. Research states that the transition of the swing is where additional elastic energy is stored within the body. This is a result of the lower body moving forward and the upper body still coiling backward.
It would seem that there is a fair amount of similar (read exactly the same) reporting elsewhere on the web. Fleisig's paper seems to have been incorporated quite a bit compared to many other research studies. Having seen some of Fleisig's other papers I question the interpretations that are being drawn from this one beyond the fact that the language being used in the interpretation is incorrect.

Peter
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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

November 25th, 2008, 3:32 pm #4

of 'science' posted without reference. The site is a mix of a limited set of study references with interpretations done in a way that make it not clear which is which at times. For example the site says:

Research states that the transition of the swing is where additional elastic energy is stored within the body. This is a result of the lower body moving forward and the upper body still coiling backward.

This statement does not have a reference. Is it from a study or the authors opinion?

Beyond that you need to be specific about where you think the site says something that conflicts with something I've said. I have little patience for digging through pseudo-science.

Peter
comes from Fleisig, The Biomecanics of golf,
since his name is referenced at the end of
the paragraph.

ARE Fleisig's papers creditable?

The sentence in question is-

This is a result of the lower body moving forward and the upper body still coiling backward.

I don't know if the paragraph is exactly what Fleisig wrote, but i take it that you disagree
with the sentence in question.


The best reference point of when the transition stage of the swing begins is when weight shift onto the inside of the right foot (right-handed golfer) is completed and movement back towards the left foot begins. The transition in terms of a time frame is very short and is completed when weight transfer begins to move forward, and the club completes its movement backwards. Research states that the transition of the swing is where additional elastic energy is stored within the body. This is a result of the lower body moving forward and the upper body still coiling backward. Studies show that at the completion of the transition (top of the back swing) the hips are closed to approximately 45 degrees and the shoulders are closed to about 100 degrees (Fleisig, Biomechanics of Golf).



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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

November 25th, 2008, 6:24 pm #5

It would seem that there is a fair amount of similar (read exactly the same) reporting elsewhere on the web. Fleisig's paper seems to have been incorporated quite a bit compared to many other research studies. Having seen some of Fleisig's other papers I question the interpretations that are being drawn from this one beyond the fact that the language being used in the interpretation is incorrect.

Peter
than i am but i have this sticking point about the transistion
that you and i disagree about or maybe i don't understand
what you are saying.

From page 152 of the book "Swing Like A Pro" it states-

When you perform the transition move, the lower body
moves emphatatically toward the target.

The combination of lateral and rotary motion of the
hips dosn't release all the power just yet; rather
it contiues to accumalate as your-
UPPER BODY KEEPS TURNING TO THE TOP OF THE SWING.

This book was writen after studying 100 of the top
pros and using computor models based on their swings.
I Would assume that these 100 top pros agree with
DR.Ralph Mann's book as none of them have been critical of
his book.

The hardest drill to do in the book they say is trying
to make your body move in two directions at once.

In the drill you try to move your hips laterally back toward the target
while you contiue to turn your upper body to the top of your back
swing. The authors say this action is where most of the power
in the golf swing is created. They add that if you do these movements
a golfer will hit the ball farther probally with less effort
than they are using now.

It is a dificult drill for me to do.
Peter what do you think about all this- is Mann correct and if i have missed
something important in all this, please explain
JC
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

November 25th, 2008, 10:10 pm #6

comes from Fleisig, The Biomecanics of golf,
since his name is referenced at the end of
the paragraph.

ARE Fleisig's papers creditable?

The sentence in question is-

This is a result of the lower body moving forward and the upper body still coiling backward.

I don't know if the paragraph is exactly what Fleisig wrote, but i take it that you disagree
with the sentence in question.


The best reference point of when the transition stage of the swing begins is when weight shift onto the inside of the right foot (right-handed golfer) is completed and movement back towards the left foot begins. The transition in terms of a time frame is very short and is completed when weight transfer begins to move forward, and the club completes its movement backwards. Research states that the transition of the swing is where additional elastic energy is stored within the body. This is a result of the lower body moving forward and the upper body still coiling backward. Studies show that at the completion of the transition (top of the back swing) the hips are closed to approximately 45 degrees and the shoulders are closed to about 100 degrees (Fleisig, Biomechanics of Golf).


Fleisig is a very credible researcher which is why I doubt the entire segment you quote came from him. In any case I'll have the paper soon so I'll let you know.

The way the passage you cite is written the only part that I would assume comes from Fleisig is:

Studies show that at the completion of the transition (top of the back swing) the hips are closed to approximately 45 degrees and the shoulders are closed to about 100 degrees (Fleisig, Biomechanics of Golf).

Which is likely from tabular data supplied by Fleisig and would be consistent with Fleisig's main line of study - sports injuries. Note that the quoted Fleisig paper was published in 'Feeling up to Par: Medicine from Tee to Green'.

Lookng at the remainder of the statement:

The best reference point of when the transition stage of the swing begins is when weight shift onto the inside of the right foot (right-handed golfer) is completed and movement back towards the left foot begins.

For some analysis but not for others.

The transition in terms of a time frame is very short and is completed when weight transfer begins to move forward, and the club completes its movement backwards.

'Short' is a characterization. Relative to key events in the swing transition as defined here is not 'short' in my opinion. It also presumes that the club completes is movement 'backwards' when weight transfer 'begins to move forward'. This is not true for pros.

Research states that the transition of the swing is where additional elastic energy is stored within the body.

I have not seen any research that says this. I have seen research that says that 'elastic energy' in muscles (not 'the body') is minimal and dependent on stretching the relevant muscles as well as a limited time for the muscles to act after being stretched.

This is a result of the lower body moving forward and the upper body still coiling backward.

Here he seems to be referring to 'X-Factor stretch'. Note that this statment conflicts with ...is completed when weight transfer begins to move forward, and the club completes its movement backwards.

X-Factor stretch was specifially noted by the people that first documented it as not being observable in the tested amateurs. Also note that the movement forward by the lower body needs to be initiated before the upper body completes the backswing. There is no 'automatic' initiation of the lower body movement because the pro is 'wound up' (implying they reached the end of their backswing before starting the lower body movement).

Peter
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

November 25th, 2008, 10:38 pm #7

than i am but i have this sticking point about the transistion
that you and i disagree about or maybe i don't understand
what you are saying.

From page 152 of the book "Swing Like A Pro" it states-

When you perform the transition move, the lower body
moves emphatatically toward the target.

The combination of lateral and rotary motion of the
hips dosn't release all the power just yet; rather
it contiues to accumalate as your-
UPPER BODY KEEPS TURNING TO THE TOP OF THE SWING.

This book was writen after studying 100 of the top
pros and using computor models based on their swings.
I Would assume that these 100 top pros agree with
DR.Ralph Mann's book as none of them have been critical of
his book.

The hardest drill to do in the book they say is trying
to make your body move in two directions at once.

In the drill you try to move your hips laterally back toward the target
while you contiue to turn your upper body to the top of your back
swing. The authors say this action is where most of the power
in the golf swing is created. They add that if you do these movements
a golfer will hit the ball farther probally with less effort
than they are using now.

It is a dificult drill for me to do.
Peter what do you think about all this- is Mann correct and if i have missed
something important in all this, please explain
JC
is a very useful book in my opinion and having been to a Compusport training facility that was based on 'Swing Like a Pro' I've experienced it first hand. However 'Swing Like a Pro' is not a scientific study of biomechanics or power sources (as properly defined by physics).

When you perform the transition move, the lower body
moves emphatatically toward the target.

The combination of lateral and rotary motion of the
hips dosn't release all the power just yet; rather
it contiues to accumalate as your-
UPPER BODY KEEPS TURNING TO THE TOP OF THE SWING.


Power is force applied over distance. Power is not being accumulated by the turning of the upper body. Potential energy is accumlated as the club moves higher due to gravity. 'Power' in this statement is not being used in the proper way physics (or a scientific study) would use it but rather in a vernacular for to make a point to a non-technical reader. Similarly you hips do not accumulare power so they don't have any to release.

In the drill you try to move your hips laterally back toward the target while you contiue to turn your upper body to the top of your back swing. The authors say this action is where most of the power in the golf swing is created. They add that if you do these movements a golfer will hit the ball farther probally with less effort than they are using now.

This can be true but not for the reason they cite. There is information at the Titleist Performance Institute that can explain why especially when combined with some basic information from physics.

Peter
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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

November 26th, 2008, 4:37 pm #8

about the Titelist data.

1.
Pelvis (red) accelerates and peaks at a lower speed than the other segments, and then decelerates rapidly.
2.
Thorax (green) accelerates to a higher speed than the pelvis, and then decelerates rapidly.
3.
Lead Upper Arm (blue) accelerates to a higher speed than the thorax, and then decelerates rapidly.
4.
Club (brown) continues accelerating reaching maximum speed at impact.

My questions:

1. This rapid decleration of each body part- is this something that
the pro tries to do or does it just happen by posting the lead
leg on the down swing or for some other reason?

2.This sentence-Club continues accelerating reaching maximum speed at impact.

Is he speaking about the club head?
I have read before that the club head slows down as it approaches impact
despite the players attempt to accelerate it. Not true?

3.Is all the data the same for both a one plane and two plane swing?

JC
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

November 26th, 2008, 11:18 pm #9

1.
1. Pelvis (red) accelerates and peaks at a lower speed than the other segments, and then decelerates rapidly.
2. Thorax (green) accelerates to a higher speed than the pelvis, and then decelerates rapidly.
3. Lead Upper Arm (blue) accelerates to a higher speed than the thorax, and then decelerates rapidly.
4. Club (brown) continues accelerating reaching maximum speed at impact.

My questions:

1. This rapid decleration of each body part- is this something that
the pro tries to do or does it just happen by posting the lead
leg on the down swing or for some other reason?


It is something the pro has learned to do correctly unless it happened to be the case that they always did this from the first time they swung a golf club. What is more it is something that may stop happening with age even if it had been mastered as was noted by Nicklaus a few years back.

2. This sentence-Club continues accelerating reaching maximum speed at impact.

Is he speaking about the club head?
I have read before that the club head slows down as it approaches impact
despite the players attempt to accelerate it. Not true?


He said the club though it is certain the statment applies to the clubhead as well as the rest of the club. The clubhead slows down as it approaches impact in bad swings as you can see in both of the amateur graphs. The clubhead does not slow down as it approaches impact for a good swing.

3. Is all the data the same for both a one plane and two plane swing?

I have not seen a study that compares a one plane and two plane swing though I don't doubt that the same is true of all good swings.

Peter
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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

November 30th, 2008, 4:11 pm #10

3. Is all the data the same for both a one plane and two plane swing?

Your response-

I have not seen a study that compares a one plane and two plane swing though I don't doubt that the same is true of all good swings.

Another question-

With the 2 plane swing having the so called
vertical drop with the arms, might that change
the order of the down swing somewhat?

JC
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