No Lateral Shift at all - just rotation.

No Lateral Shift at all - just rotation.

Joined: July 12th, 2001, 12:35 am

August 21st, 2009, 12:58 pm #1

Video of Moe from behind him (rear), shows that in the backswing the spine moves forward approximately 4-5 inches when he rotates. In the downswing, the hips re-rotate around the position of the spine that has moved forward. As the hips continue to rotate, the spine returns to its original position - where it started (slightly lower) but in the same position.

When you look at this movement from a face-on view, it looks as if the there is a lateral movement of the body however, there is never any lateral movement - only a rotation of the torso which moves the spine forward in the initial backswing movement. Once the spine has moved forward, the hips rotate it looks like it is lateral but once again, as the rotation continues, the spine comes back to its original position but by this time, the hips have rotated looking like there has been a 5 or 6 inch lateral move however the spine position - in total - has not moved from its position.


The way to achieve this is through proper rotation of the hips and proper use of the lower body.

Todd
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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

August 21st, 2009, 3:17 pm #2

Todd, i think i can picture the movements you
are describing, but done correctly, how does it feel?

If the back swing is done properly, do most of the
down swing actions you describe just happen
without conscious thought?

I have read that a hip bump or slide toward the target
is necessary to prevent an over- the -top -move, but as
you describe the down swing movements, that is not necesary.
Right?

Todd ,if i think rotate my hips in place during the back swing
and the down swing - the rest of what needs to happen
as far as lower body stuff takes care of itself?

JC


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Joined: April 22nd, 2004, 9:58 pm

August 21st, 2009, 6:16 pm #3

Video of Moe from behind him (rear), shows that in the backswing the spine moves forward approximately 4-5 inches when he rotates. In the downswing, the hips re-rotate around the position of the spine that has moved forward. As the hips continue to rotate, the spine returns to its original position - where it started (slightly lower) but in the same position.

When you look at this movement from a face-on view, it looks as if the there is a lateral movement of the body however, there is never any lateral movement - only a rotation of the torso which moves the spine forward in the initial backswing movement. Once the spine has moved forward, the hips rotate it looks like it is lateral but once again, as the rotation continues, the spine comes back to its original position but by this time, the hips have rotated looking like there has been a 5 or 6 inch lateral move however the spine position - in total - has not moved from its position.


The way to achieve this is through proper rotation of the hips and proper use of the lower body.

Todd
Are you describing Moe's spine movement from a
down-the-line view or a back-on view?
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 21st, 2009, 8:14 pm #4

Video of Moe from behind him (rear), shows that in the backswing the spine moves forward approximately 4-5 inches when he rotates. In the downswing, the hips re-rotate around the position of the spine that has moved forward. As the hips continue to rotate, the spine returns to its original position - where it started (slightly lower) but in the same position.

When you look at this movement from a face-on view, it looks as if the there is a lateral movement of the body however, there is never any lateral movement - only a rotation of the torso which moves the spine forward in the initial backswing movement. Once the spine has moved forward, the hips rotate it looks like it is lateral but once again, as the rotation continues, the spine comes back to its original position but by this time, the hips have rotated looking like there has been a 5 or 6 inch lateral move however the spine position - in total - has not moved from its position.


The way to achieve this is through proper rotation of the hips and proper use of the lower body.

Todd



Peter
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Joined: July 12th, 2001, 12:35 am

August 21st, 2009, 8:45 pm #5

Todd, i think i can picture the movements you
are describing, but done correctly, how does it feel?

If the back swing is done properly, do most of the
down swing actions you describe just happen
without conscious thought?

I have read that a hip bump or slide toward the target
is necessary to prevent an over- the -top -move, but as
you describe the down swing movements, that is not necesary.
Right?

Todd ,if i think rotate my hips in place during the back swing
and the down swing - the rest of what needs to happen
as far as lower body stuff takes care of itself?

JC

No, you must rotate the hips.

Buckle, sit, slide bump - is all a perception of what is happening. What i am describing is actual spine movement that causes this perception.

IT feels like rotation around the trail knee - and then in the downswing a re-rotation into the flexed lead knee.

Todd
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

August 21st, 2009, 10:32 pm #6




Peter
Saved me the hassle. :)I sense another DVD is coming out soon.

******** Graves Thread "Fight Disclaimer" **********

Todd/Scott/Tim/GGA et al - PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY! I don't want to start another "big bang on Graves thread" thing. JUST STATING MY OPINION. It just always seems your description(s) complicate things alot. You espouse a swing and a method that is supposedly simpler and easier than conventional golf, but I find most all your teachings, descriptions and explanations just as complicated as those found in conventional golf.

******* Graves Thread "Fight Disclaimer" **********

It just seems to me that if you set up with a braced trail leg, and simply turn your torso around your spine maintaining that brace, if you keep turning, eventually your hips will turn some too. Then, if you will initiate the downswing with the lead knee LIKE MOE DOES ( any good ball striker actually ), the hips will rotate "properly". WTF else is there?

Todd says you can "achieve this through proper rotation of the hips and proper use of the lower body." Achieve what?

There clearly is a lateral move by Moe from top of swing to impact. There is is also a slight sitting action too as he transitions to the downswing and reaches impact. Note in Peter's sequence, that his waist band is above the treeline in the background at address. At impact the waistband is below the treeline. You can also take a straight edge and place it on the top of his head at impact and note his head is lower than a few frames earlier. The knee(s) do buckle, there is a sitting action, then there is a slide, and the bump is the rotation of which you refer to.

This is the proper use of the lower body found in all good golf swings. It can be had any anyone willing to train for it. It is not exclusive to a "Moe Swing".
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Joined: August 6th, 2009, 11:52 pm

August 21st, 2009, 10:33 pm #7




Peter
I like this topic. This to me seems just as important as the "keystone" position of the arms...the braced right leg. Keeping my right leg braced and turning against it and rotating instead of sliding, seems to make the lower body action automatic. Also, as Scott Hazeldine mentioned in his DVD, the braced right leg makes room for the arms coming into impact.

I'm definitely no expert, but my ball striking has improved greatly just by focusing on the rotation Todd describes and the Keystone position.

I hope I'm on the right track here...

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Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 11:35 am

August 22nd, 2009, 4:02 am #8

I agree with Clubslinger on this one. I think there is very little lateral motion...it is rotational motion. Moe talks about this in two videos I have seen. I, completely, agree with Graves on this issue.
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Joined: July 12th, 2001, 12:35 am

August 22nd, 2009, 4:11 am #9

Saved me the hassle. :)I sense another DVD is coming out soon.

******** Graves Thread "Fight Disclaimer" **********

Todd/Scott/Tim/GGA et al - PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY! I don't want to start another "big bang on Graves thread" thing. JUST STATING MY OPINION. It just always seems your description(s) complicate things alot. You espouse a swing and a method that is supposedly simpler and easier than conventional golf, but I find most all your teachings, descriptions and explanations just as complicated as those found in conventional golf.

******* Graves Thread "Fight Disclaimer" **********

It just seems to me that if you set up with a braced trail leg, and simply turn your torso around your spine maintaining that brace, if you keep turning, eventually your hips will turn some too. Then, if you will initiate the downswing with the lead knee LIKE MOE DOES ( any good ball striker actually ), the hips will rotate "properly". WTF else is there?

Todd says you can "achieve this through proper rotation of the hips and proper use of the lower body." Achieve what?

There clearly is a lateral move by Moe from top of swing to impact. There is is also a slight sitting action too as he transitions to the downswing and reaches impact. Note in Peter's sequence, that his waist band is above the treeline in the background at address. At impact the waistband is below the treeline. You can also take a straight edge and place it on the top of his head at impact and note his head is lower than a few frames earlier. The knee(s) do buckle, there is a sitting action, then there is a slide, and the bump is the rotation of which you refer to.

This is the proper use of the lower body found in all good golf swings. It can be had any anyone willing to train for it. It is not exclusive to a "Moe Swing".
From a back view - behind Moe, if you mark the spine position at address and it returns to the same position at impact, can there be a lateral movement?

IF you say yes, then please tell me what is moving laterally?

Todd

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Joined: July 12th, 2001, 12:35 am

August 22nd, 2009, 4:26 am #10




Peter
Lines on pictures do not fully explain what is happening to the spine. There is nothing lateral about the above picture other than your perception of the movement of the trail hip which appears, because of rotation to move laterally. IF the yellow line marks the spine, there is clearly no lateral motion of the lower spine. A simple understanding of anatomy clears this up.

Todd
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