New to Single Axis, Building Clubs

New to Single Axis, Building Clubs

Joined: August 4th, 2009, 3:04 am

August 4th, 2009, 3:32 am #1

I am new to single Axis. Have not played golf in 2.5 years. I am hitting the ball fairly well using the Graves Technique from DVD I ordered from him. Driver is straight about 245 counting the roll, carrying about 220 I guess. 8 iron about 130, also straight, but contact is not so hot and ball flight with all irons is low. Sort of resembles a punch shot, but ball bites well when it hits green on the very few that are well struck. A lot of shots are either fat or thin. My worst and most frequent poor shots are thin with the irons; with the woods, the pull hook is my most frequent bad shot, but if I swing slow and keep my right heel on the ground and do not sway I can eliminate that.

I currently use Wishon Irons (blades, 60 degree through 6 iron), Adams 9 wood, 5 wood, 3 wood and Calloway 14 degree driver. All have medium stiff shafts. Before I quit I had 13 handicap.

I have decided to get some new clubs, built from golf works. I am 6' 2.5", WTF 39". Any idea what I should order as far as length and lie? Shaft flex? Graphite or steel shafts?

Getting a dynamic fitting will be difficult for me.

Thanks to all.
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Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 11:35 am

August 4th, 2009, 1:13 pm #2

On Grave Bros site you can put in measuring information, and they will tell what loft and lie to use on the irons. I would guess you would be a 65 degree five iron, but not sure.
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Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

August 4th, 2009, 6:28 pm #3

I am new to single Axis. Have not played golf in 2.5 years. I am hitting the ball fairly well using the Graves Technique from DVD I ordered from him. Driver is straight about 245 counting the roll, carrying about 220 I guess. 8 iron about 130, also straight, but contact is not so hot and ball flight with all irons is low. Sort of resembles a punch shot, but ball bites well when it hits green on the very few that are well struck. A lot of shots are either fat or thin. My worst and most frequent poor shots are thin with the irons; with the woods, the pull hook is my most frequent bad shot, but if I swing slow and keep my right heel on the ground and do not sway I can eliminate that.

I currently use Wishon Irons (blades, 60 degree through 6 iron), Adams 9 wood, 5 wood, 3 wood and Calloway 14 degree driver. All have medium stiff shafts. Before I quit I had 13 handicap.

I have decided to get some new clubs, built from golf works. I am 6' 2.5", WTF 39". Any idea what I should order as far as length and lie? Shaft flex? Graphite or steel shafts?

Getting a dynamic fitting will be difficult for me.

Thanks to all.
to get some more numbers before ordering custom clubs. You should be able to determine shaft length based on your wrist to floor measurement (you can look up the formulas on the internet.) You really need to hit off of a lie-board to determine lie. I would suggest getting some carpenters powdered chalk, putting it on some plywood and hitting some balls off of it. This will at least tell you if you need flatter or steeper lies based on where the chalk marks are on the bottom of your irons.

It would also help to have your swing speed to determine shaft flex, but if you are having trouble getting the ball in the air, then you need softer shafts, or at least a shaft with a low bend point. Based on the numbers you gave, you seem to fit into a regular flex category. If you have a low swing speed and/or vibration problems, then I would recommend graphite iron shafts, otherwise, not. For you, probably not, but this is personal preference. If you can afford them and want them then go for it.

There are some club fitters on this board who could probably offer more help. I have the Wishon 550C irons and love them to death. What is your reason for the new clubs? If you are looking to improve your game then it would really behoove you to get a custom fitting, otherwise you'll probably just be throwing your money away ... kind of like calling up a tailor and telling him to make up a 40 regular suit for you (why not just go buy something off of the rack?) I would highly recommend that you test any club before buying it.
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Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 11:35 am

August 5th, 2009, 12:04 pm #4

On Grave Bros site you can put in measuring information, and they will tell what loft and lie to use on the irons. I would guess you would be a 65 degree five iron, but not sure.
You indicate a 39 inch wrist to floor measurement...you sure about that?

Many golfers are carrying driver, three metal, five metal (same as 3 iron distance), four iron hybrid, five iron hybrid, and then start regular irons in 6-sw.

You should watch the fact that with Graves you reach out, vs. IMA in which your reach down. Plus, since you will have a wider stance your swing plane goes flatter. Lastly, with the wider stance you could be closer to the ground, in which case you short grip the club so you have to see how that affects loft and lie.

My irons are one inch extra, stiff, which I grip two inches short, and the black weighted things are the heaviest Ping has on the S59 model. However, I am going even heavier...up to about E3....just experimenting; not recommending.

Other things to consider are shaft lean of about 3 degrees or off-set irons.
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Joined: December 21st, 2001, 12:25 am

August 5th, 2009, 1:59 pm #5

I am new to single Axis. Have not played golf in 2.5 years. I am hitting the ball fairly well using the Graves Technique from DVD I ordered from him. Driver is straight about 245 counting the roll, carrying about 220 I guess. 8 iron about 130, also straight, but contact is not so hot and ball flight with all irons is low. Sort of resembles a punch shot, but ball bites well when it hits green on the very few that are well struck. A lot of shots are either fat or thin. My worst and most frequent poor shots are thin with the irons; with the woods, the pull hook is my most frequent bad shot, but if I swing slow and keep my right heel on the ground and do not sway I can eliminate that.

I currently use Wishon Irons (blades, 60 degree through 6 iron), Adams 9 wood, 5 wood, 3 wood and Calloway 14 degree driver. All have medium stiff shafts. Before I quit I had 13 handicap.

I have decided to get some new clubs, built from golf works. I am 6' 2.5", WTF 39". Any idea what I should order as far as length and lie? Shaft flex? Graphite or steel shafts?

Getting a dynamic fitting will be difficult for me.

Thanks to all.
go to a club fitter in your area and get fitted if it's a concern to you. Use whatever shafts/shaft flex you feel comfortable with. I personally no longer believe you must have special clubs for any SA method. IDK much about what the Graves Bro.'s are doing, but with NG they said you need to extend the clubs 4", use bigger grips, and a more upright lie angle. That's all good and fine if that's your preference, but remember something. Moe also used golf clubs so heavy (E3) that most would not be able to swing them. So if we're going to follow Moe in all other area's, it only makes sense to follow him in that one, too. Yet, if NG or anyone else made clubs to that specification they would never be sold.

Something else to think about:
+ While it's true Moe extended his clubs about 4", it's also true he gripped down 4"! In other words, if he had never extended his clubs and just gripped the club where you're supposed to grip it, he would have been gripping at the same length as he was when he extended them 4" and gripped down 4".

I think there is a lot of confusion in the SA community, which is why I no longer associate myself as a SA golfer unless someone actually asks me. In this community, many have yet to differentiate between preference and fact. Another example: Must you use a 10-finger grip or can you use a SA grip with an overlapping grip, for example? Answer, YES! It's factually true, IMO, that gripping the club in the palms of your hands will produce better results. But it's preference to use a 10-finger grip like Moe did later in his life. If you use Graves, I'm sure you're aware he used an overlapping grip most of his life. Then he changed and spoke like his 10-finger grip was fact, when in-fact the only thing it was, was simply preference.

If you can get through that confusion, of separating facts from personal preferences, you'll do well with any SA method you chose.
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Joined: September 3rd, 2004, 7:57 pm

August 5th, 2009, 3:03 pm #6

Moe's clubs were NOT, I repeat NOT, 4" over standard length. PLEASE get your facts straight and stop spreading misinformation.

We have sets of Moe's clubs at our Academy, and they are STANDARD Length and 3 degrees FLAT of standard Lie Angles.

In addition, his grips were NOT non-tapered. They were self wrapped grips that feel like tire rubber, and they were long. They were bigger than standard sized grips, but definitely NOT non-tapered.

Natural Golf NEVER sold clubs like Moe Norman played, they sold clubs that Jack Kuykendall designed.

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Joined: August 16th, 2005, 10:50 am

August 5th, 2009, 6:43 pm #7

I am new to single Axis. Have not played golf in 2.5 years. I am hitting the ball fairly well using the Graves Technique from DVD I ordered from him. Driver is straight about 245 counting the roll, carrying about 220 I guess. 8 iron about 130, also straight, but contact is not so hot and ball flight with all irons is low. Sort of resembles a punch shot, but ball bites well when it hits green on the very few that are well struck. A lot of shots are either fat or thin. My worst and most frequent poor shots are thin with the irons; with the woods, the pull hook is my most frequent bad shot, but if I swing slow and keep my right heel on the ground and do not sway I can eliminate that.

I currently use Wishon Irons (blades, 60 degree through 6 iron), Adams 9 wood, 5 wood, 3 wood and Calloway 14 degree driver. All have medium stiff shafts. Before I quit I had 13 handicap.

I have decided to get some new clubs, built from golf works. I am 6' 2.5", WTF 39". Any idea what I should order as far as length and lie? Shaft flex? Graphite or steel shafts?

Getting a dynamic fitting will be difficult for me.

Thanks to all.
First off, I agree that a dynamic fitting would be the best thing, by far. But if you are determined to buy some new clubs, here is my take on things.

Your driver swing is 90-95 MPH.
Your 5 iron swing (if you used one) is 70-73 MPH.

This makes you extremely average, and the choice between regular and stiff shafts comes down to your swing mechanics. A good SA swing, being short and forceful, tends to load the shaft more than average, which in turn would push it towards stiff shafts or at least "firm". HOWEVER, the terms regular and stiff have no standards which apply to them. They mean whatever the shaft maker thinks they mean. In my clubmaking, I find that regulars are usually a bit softer than expected, but stiffs usually are in fact stiff. I would not hesitate to put you into a regular shaft, as long as it is not actually soft. I would hesitate to go with stiff, with those numbers. Even not knowing anything about the shafts other than the flex name, I'd still say you should go with regular.

You will hit the ball a little higher with the softer shafts. If you switch from blades to cavities, you should hit the ball noticeably higher.

As far as length, using Tom Wishon's chart, your irons would be based on a 38.5" 5 iron, and the driver should be 44.5". If you stick with a 12-14* driver, I'd go to a 17* 4 wood at 42.5", a 22* 7 wood at 42", and a 27* 9 or 11 wood at 41.5". BTW this is my exact set makeup, plus a 5 hybrid instead of the 5 iron, and I have the same swingspeed as you. I would build your set at D0 to D1 swingweight. You will have to use graphite to get there with those length of irons. If you like a heavy club, try steel, but they will feel heavy at those lengths. If you use Maltby KE4's, they can put lighter weights in them and you can use steel. If you use the Maltby Dynamic Gold Lite shafts, have them cut to S, not R. The R trim is way too soft, and the S is just about right for your swingspeed. The KE4's on that shaft would be a very nice set for you. Make sure to tell the builder what you want as far as swingweight! Golfworks builds them for $5 or $10 per club, so that might be the way to go.

Lie angle, no one knows without a dynamic fitting. My best guess would be to assume a 5 iron at 62* and increase the lie by 1/2* for every iron shorter. So your 6 would be 62.5*, etc. You can get them adjusted whenever you get around to it.

My WTF is 32". This indicates a 37.5" 5 iron and a 43" driver. After a lot of trial and error self-fitting, I've settled on the 37.5", but play a 44" driver. It's hard to even build a 43" driver, for one thing, without using a steel shaft. I have to add 10 grams of lead tape to my driver head to get the right weight at 44". Tell your builder to go ahead and use lead tape as need be on your clubs.

As to grips, just follow Graves' recommendations for your hand size.

This is nothing other than a set of good guesses, worth what you paid for it.
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Joined: August 16th, 2005, 10:50 am

August 5th, 2009, 6:50 pm #8

I am new to single Axis. Have not played golf in 2.5 years. I am hitting the ball fairly well using the Graves Technique from DVD I ordered from him. Driver is straight about 245 counting the roll, carrying about 220 I guess. 8 iron about 130, also straight, but contact is not so hot and ball flight with all irons is low. Sort of resembles a punch shot, but ball bites well when it hits green on the very few that are well struck. A lot of shots are either fat or thin. My worst and most frequent poor shots are thin with the irons; with the woods, the pull hook is my most frequent bad shot, but if I swing slow and keep my right heel on the ground and do not sway I can eliminate that.

I currently use Wishon Irons (blades, 60 degree through 6 iron), Adams 9 wood, 5 wood, 3 wood and Calloway 14 degree driver. All have medium stiff shafts. Before I quit I had 13 handicap.

I have decided to get some new clubs, built from golf works. I am 6' 2.5", WTF 39". Any idea what I should order as far as length and lie? Shaft flex? Graphite or steel shafts?

Getting a dynamic fitting will be difficult for me.

Thanks to all.
BTW, the swing flaws and results you mention are typical of a beginner with SA, in my own experience. The pulls are from still coming over the top.

The thin hits are very common on irons. I think that is partly from coming over the top too. And/or a little reverse pivot. When you learn to drive down from the inside, these flaws will go away.

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Joined: December 21st, 2001, 12:25 am

August 5th, 2009, 11:45 pm #9

Moe's clubs were NOT, I repeat NOT, 4" over standard length. PLEASE get your facts straight and stop spreading misinformation.

We have sets of Moe's clubs at our Academy, and they are STANDARD Length and 3 degrees FLAT of standard Lie Angles.

In addition, his grips were NOT non-tapered. They were self wrapped grips that feel like tire rubber, and they were long. They were bigger than standard sized grips, but definitely NOT non-tapered.

Natural Golf NEVER sold clubs like Moe Norman played, they sold clubs that Jack Kuykendall designed.
"spreading" what I read. Even so, we must make a difference between Moe's preferences and facts if we are going to follow him. I don't even like the word "follow," Moe himself said not to follow him, but to be oneself. A lot of what he said was preference, stated as fact. The point being ... you do not need special clubs for SA golf. It's a marketing myth. You do not need special grips, either. Go to a local club fitter, get fitted for Titleist, Ping, Callaway, whichever clubs you prefer, and use them. If you prefer bigger grips, use them. I prefer standard. Golf is a game of preferences. It's a game where one must master himself to be successful. There is no black and white approach ... which is unfortunate. Maybe that's why the avg. golf score hasn't improved as much, we want to be like Tiger or whoever, when Tiger and the other greats (including Moe) wanted to be like themselves. They wanted to break everyone elses records and then their own. I think that's the best way to play golf, IMHO.

- Brian
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Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 11:35 am

August 5th, 2009, 11:47 pm #10

Moe's clubs were NOT, I repeat NOT, 4" over standard length. PLEASE get your facts straight and stop spreading misinformation.

We have sets of Moe's clubs at our Academy, and they are STANDARD Length and 3 degrees FLAT of standard Lie Angles.

In addition, his grips were NOT non-tapered. They were self wrapped grips that feel like tire rubber, and they were long. They were bigger than standard sized grips, but definitely NOT non-tapered.

Natural Golf NEVER sold clubs like Moe Norman played, they sold clubs that Jack Kuykendall designed.
Scott, I think you have to explain that some of his clubs were 1 degree flat, based on the lie angles of his generation. Some of Moe's clubs were upright. I have seen two of Moe's sets of clubs, and it would be interesting for you to relate the lie angle of each club in the sets that you have? Lot of people would like to know this information, and from what period?
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