New Natural Fundamentals: Speed Grip?

New Natural Fundamentals: Speed Grip?

gsw
Joined: July 27th, 2000, 11:22 pm

January 3rd, 2012, 6:39 pm #1

I have been looking at the New Natural Golf web site fishing for information about Moe Normans golf swing. I found this page with a lot of frequently asked questions answered with videos. I found the first new NG fundamental The Speed Grip to be different than the way I have always been taught to hold the club. Todd wants the club to be held more in the fingers with both hands while still maintaining the SA position. When I try to address the ball using Todd's NG Speed Grip I loose the alignment of my right fore arm with the shaft of the club, however if I use the old NG palm grip where the club is held in both palms I can easily keep the shaft of the club in line with my right fore arm. I may be missing something here but my initial reaction to the new NG speed grip is that it is an incorrect way to hold the club while swinging SA.

Here is a link to faq. videos. scroll down to The New Natural Golf Fundamentals and click on them and a video will play explaining the fundamentals.

http://moenormangolfacademy.org/faq/#


If anyone has any comments on the feasibility of making this change please feel free to comment as I would like to hear about your experiences with the new NG fundamentals.


Stan
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Joined: December 5th, 2002, 1:33 pm

January 3rd, 2012, 7:44 pm #2

Keep trying it, Stan. Watch the video over and keep trying the grip. It's all about the proper amount of rotation of the trail hand when taking your grip. The right side of your left thumb (if right handed) should fit into the lifeline of your right hand. If the top of your left thumb is in the lifeline then your trail hand isn't turned enough and you won't have the club aligned with your trail forearm. Practice this grip while looking in a mirror, both front and trail side. I will add one note though, the reference in that video to the Natural Golf grip was to the old one where it was in both palms. I think NG later revised that grip to one not too different from Graves only still using ten finger instead of overlapping, and of course still using the NG club grips.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 4th, 2012, 1:01 am #3

I have been looking at the New Natural Golf web site fishing for information about Moe Normans golf swing. I found this page with a lot of frequently asked questions answered with videos. I found the first new NG fundamental The Speed Grip to be different than the way I have always been taught to hold the club. Todd wants the club to be held more in the fingers with both hands while still maintaining the SA position. When I try to address the ball using Todd's NG Speed Grip I loose the alignment of my right fore arm with the shaft of the club, however if I use the old NG palm grip where the club is held in both palms I can easily keep the shaft of the club in line with my right fore arm. I may be missing something here but my initial reaction to the new NG speed grip is that it is an incorrect way to hold the club while swinging SA.

Here is a link to faq. videos. scroll down to The New Natural Golf Fundamentals and click on them and a video will play explaining the fundamentals.

http://moenormangolfacademy.org/faq/#


If anyone has any comments on the feasibility of making this change please feel free to comment as I would like to hear about your experiences with the new NG fundamentals.


Stan
SA method 'master' took issue here with Todd's statement about holding the club 'in the fingers'. Todd's own diagram showing the club should be aligned with the extensor indices tendon makes clear that there is a degree of 'gymnastics' required to both hold the club 'in the fingers' and get that alignment. Todd's explanation at one point was that the position of Moe's lead hand fingers was what pushed the club more into the fingers of the trail hand. In other words you'd have the club as though it was in your palm with the old NG grip but the fingers of the lead hand in your trail hand palm stops your trail hand palm from touching the club.

In any case video I analyzed of Todd's swing from the old NG days showed a significant difference in actual club head motion between his very Moe looking swing and the actual Moe swing so caveat emptor. You may get the aesthetics right without the actual performance.

Peter
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

January 4th, 2012, 1:28 am #4

I have been looking at the New Natural Golf web site fishing for information about Moe Normans golf swing. I found this page with a lot of frequently asked questions answered with videos. I found the first new NG fundamental The Speed Grip to be different than the way I have always been taught to hold the club. Todd wants the club to be held more in the fingers with both hands while still maintaining the SA position. When I try to address the ball using Todd's NG Speed Grip I loose the alignment of my right fore arm with the shaft of the club, however if I use the old NG palm grip where the club is held in both palms I can easily keep the shaft of the club in line with my right fore arm. I may be missing something here but my initial reaction to the new NG speed grip is that it is an incorrect way to hold the club while swinging SA.

Here is a link to faq. videos. scroll down to The New Natural Golf Fundamentals and click on them and a video will play explaining the fundamentals.

http://moenormangolfacademy.org/faq/#


If anyone has any comments on the feasibility of making this change please feel free to comment as I would like to hear about your experiences with the new NG fundamentals.


Stan
Hi Stan,

I have been wanting to comment on some of what you have written for some time now but just been real busy.

First I want to echo what some others have said here often about you and your game. You are an inspiration and great example to me and I am sure all of us here. As has recently been posted by Paul, to shoot 70's golf at ANY age puts you in a very select group of golfers. To do that facing the physical challenges you do makes it even more remarkable.

Now as to your recent discussions and questions I would say that it is my observation that you hit the ball well with all manner and type of swings and actions. As Moe would say you know how to "put this dumb thing on that dumb thing". The reality is you know how to score...you know how to PLAY. Some golfers only ever learn golf swing - they never learn to play golf.

You most recent foray into the shorter back swing, and all things "real Moe" speaks to your desire to get every last bit out of your game. CANI (Tony Robbins) is alive and well in your golfing mind, as it should be in all ours! You are going to do well with your recent approach given your physical limitations.

Regarding Graves, there are many here who have dived in. I myself bought the original LTOBG series that Todd was involved in the production of years ago. As you know Todd and Tim have been producing instructional products for years as GGA, and it seems they are always coming out with another video, and "newer material". Several years ago, when they came out with their "speed and distance" DVD, I wondered out loud here why they needed that - after all, they already had all kinds of instruction (seven DVD set) on how to generate powerful straight shots. Didn't their instruction to date tell how to hit powerful straight shots? Publish or perish principle is in play to some extent, but their instruction and material is very high quality and they have helped many golfers improve.

So now they have a new grip fundamental. New as in different from the grip that has been advocated by Natural Golf. They say the new fundamental will help you generate more speed than the old palm grip. It can be an aid to swinging faster, but you can generate sufficient speed with a "Palm Grip" also. And you can get the leverage angle he says you need with the palm grip he demonstrates.

There is much more to generating speed than creating the leverage angle at the top. Grip is not fundamental in the truest sense of the word. If it was fundamental - essential to good ball striking - then all Tour pros, whose incomes are dependent on performance; would adopt the same grip. But you see a lot of different kinds of grips out there. Since I have adopted the MGS approach to the swing, I can hit the ball with a lot of different kind of set ups...and grips (and you can see video of me doing this). I use the approach that feels the best for me and gets the best results on the course.

To get the most out of your game, I would look to the mental side of things. See what you can learn about how better to think while playing, and how to relinquish control of your game to those habits and skills you have acquired over the course of your golfing life. Find a way to "get out of your little self's way", so as to allow the big golfer inside of you to direct the show. Stay away form any of the mental guys that take a philosophical and anecdotal approach and instead learn from those whose attention is centered on process. As you know, I highly recommend the Clearkey® approach, but there are others that come close also. Stay away from the Rotellas and the Vlainates....

Best to you this year, and please keep us posted.

Kevin
The Authentic Golfer
A Blueprint For Golf Excellence

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
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Joined: December 5th, 2002, 1:33 pm

January 4th, 2012, 2:04 pm #5

I received an email from GGA this morning telling me about the progress of their students and that they had before and after video of these students that I could view but they are only viewable to their members. However, I could sign up for a free trial membership and view them. To me this is such a turnoff. True, the membership is a free trial and I could then cancel it but still I would have to go to the trouble of joining and for sure I would have to cancel it because I simply cannot afford to be a member. I really hate to sound like a whiner but in these economic times with my limited income I cannot afford luxuries like that. I live in an area surrounded by numerous golf courses but I play at the local muni. Okay, whine or rant over. Imo, the before and after video of students who have improved should be readily available for viewing by anyone. What better advertising could Graves ask for? Why make people join your site (talking about paid, members only site) to view your best advertising? Doesn't make sense to me. I have purchased dvd's from them in the past and like their method of instruction but will never be able to afford their schools. I can't even afford to buy their training aids. The extra spending money I have allows me to play golf and that's about it. I think they are good and believe in what they are doing and if there are plenty of people who can pay their prices then more power to them. It is a business after all. But showing before and after video of your students improving should be all over youtube imo. What do you guys think?
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Joined: January 6th, 2004, 8:10 am

January 4th, 2012, 8:42 pm #6

Hi Stan,

I have been wanting to comment on some of what you have written for some time now but just been real busy.

First I want to echo what some others have said here often about you and your game. You are an inspiration and great example to me and I am sure all of us here. As has recently been posted by Paul, to shoot 70's golf at ANY age puts you in a very select group of golfers. To do that facing the physical challenges you do makes it even more remarkable.

Now as to your recent discussions and questions I would say that it is my observation that you hit the ball well with all manner and type of swings and actions. As Moe would say you know how to "put this dumb thing on that dumb thing". The reality is you know how to score...you know how to PLAY. Some golfers only ever learn golf swing - they never learn to play golf.

You most recent foray into the shorter back swing, and all things "real Moe" speaks to your desire to get every last bit out of your game. CANI (Tony Robbins) is alive and well in your golfing mind, as it should be in all ours! You are going to do well with your recent approach given your physical limitations.

Regarding Graves, there are many here who have dived in. I myself bought the original LTOBG series that Todd was involved in the production of years ago. As you know Todd and Tim have been producing instructional products for years as GGA, and it seems they are always coming out with another video, and "newer material". Several years ago, when they came out with their "speed and distance" DVD, I wondered out loud here why they needed that - after all, they already had all kinds of instruction (seven DVD set) on how to generate powerful straight shots. Didn't their instruction to date tell how to hit powerful straight shots? Publish or perish principle is in play to some extent, but their instruction and material is very high quality and they have helped many golfers improve.

So now they have a new grip fundamental. New as in different from the grip that has been advocated by Natural Golf. They say the new fundamental will help you generate more speed than the old palm grip. It can be an aid to swinging faster, but you can generate sufficient speed with a "Palm Grip" also. And you can get the leverage angle he says you need with the palm grip he demonstrates.

There is much more to generating speed than creating the leverage angle at the top. Grip is not fundamental in the truest sense of the word. If it was fundamental - essential to good ball striking - then all Tour pros, whose incomes are dependent on performance; would adopt the same grip. But you see a lot of different kinds of grips out there. Since I have adopted the MGS approach to the swing, I can hit the ball with a lot of different kind of set ups...and grips (and you can see video of me doing this). I use the approach that feels the best for me and gets the best results on the course.

To get the most out of your game, I would look to the mental side of things. See what you can learn about how better to think while playing, and how to relinquish control of your game to those habits and skills you have acquired over the course of your golfing life. Find a way to "get out of your little self's way", so as to allow the big golfer inside of you to direct the show. Stay away form any of the mental guys that take a philosophical and anecdotal approach and instead learn from those whose attention is centered on process. As you know, I highly recommend the Clearkey® approach, but there are others that come close also. Stay away from the Rotellas and the Vlainates....

Best to you this year, and please keep us posted.

Kevin
The Authentic Golfer
A Blueprint For Golf Excellence

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
When I went to SA I also adopted the 10 finger grip, and really liked the feeling of strength and control it gave me - possibly I had been allowing the club to slip a bit during the swing. Plus it seemed somehow logical to have all the fingers on the grip - after all who ever heard of someone chopping wood with an overlapping grip ?

Anyway, on an impulse over the Christmas break I decided to experiment by going back to my old interlocking grip. The first few balls on the range it felt a bit feeble just using the bottom 3 fingers of the right hand , but then suddenly a couple of shots took off and I realised that I was getting a more powerful, "swishy" release through the ball. The difference in clubhead speed was palpable.I speculate that maybe having the fingers higher up the handle I now have a longer "lever" to hit the dumb thing with ?

Anyway, on the course I reckon I've gained half a club distance without any apparent loss of control. Any comments ?
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gsw
Joined: July 27th, 2000, 11:22 pm

January 5th, 2012, 4:11 am #7

SA method 'master' took issue here with Todd's statement about holding the club 'in the fingers'. Todd's own diagram showing the club should be aligned with the extensor indices tendon makes clear that there is a degree of 'gymnastics' required to both hold the club 'in the fingers' and get that alignment. Todd's explanation at one point was that the position of Moe's lead hand fingers was what pushed the club more into the fingers of the trail hand. In other words you'd have the club as though it was in your palm with the old NG grip but the fingers of the lead hand in your trail hand palm stops your trail hand palm from touching the club.

In any case video I analyzed of Todd's swing from the old NG days showed a significant difference in actual club head motion between his very Moe looking swing and the actual Moe swing so caveat emptor. You may get the aesthetics right without the actual performance.

Peter
And I cannot make it work. When I go to the overlap grip I loose the SA alignment and don't hit the ball as well. I am going to stick with the right hand grip that Scott teaches in the Master The Golf Swing video. I am not going to judge the grip for everyone else I am just saying that it is not going to work for me. I have been gripping the club the way Scott teaches with my right hand since 1998 so maybe I am just too set in my ways to change.


Stan
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 5th, 2012, 7:23 pm #8

overlap or interlock and keep SA alignment. It takes a little effort but it can be done. You can even do double overlap and keep SA alignment. Never the less I continue to use a 'baseball' grip. You just need to discipline the way your trial hand works.

Peter
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gsw
Joined: July 27th, 2000, 11:22 pm

January 6th, 2012, 1:38 am #9

When I went to SA I also adopted the 10 finger grip, and really liked the feeling of strength and control it gave me - possibly I had been allowing the club to slip a bit during the swing. Plus it seemed somehow logical to have all the fingers on the grip - after all who ever heard of someone chopping wood with an overlapping grip ?

Anyway, on an impulse over the Christmas break I decided to experiment by going back to my old interlocking grip. The first few balls on the range it felt a bit feeble just using the bottom 3 fingers of the right hand , but then suddenly a couple of shots took off and I realised that I was getting a more powerful, "swishy" release through the ball. The difference in clubhead speed was palpable.I speculate that maybe having the fingers higher up the handle I now have a longer "lever" to hit the dumb thing with ?

Anyway, on the course I reckon I've gained half a club distance without any apparent loss of control. Any comments ?
Hi David

I would guess that you are correct that overlapping your trail hand does provide you with a longer lever and a bit more power. I simply like the feel of all my trail (dominate) hand on an oversized grip. You could get that same effect by using a reverse overlap grip. With a reverse overlap grip you overlap the top index finger over the bottom hand pinky finger. This moves the lower hand up on the grip the same amount as a normal overlap grip does. I think Scott Hazledine uses this grip for some shots? You could also simply lengthen your clubs about one inch and achieve the same result. Anyway I am going to stick with the trail hand grip that I learned from the IMA video and from Tom Sanders back when I took lessons from him. As I said before the new overlap grip being taught by the Graves brothers may be just fine for other SA golfers but I prefer to stick with the old ten-finger grip.


Stan
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 6th, 2012, 3:54 am #10

When I went to SA I also adopted the 10 finger grip, and really liked the feeling of strength and control it gave me - possibly I had been allowing the club to slip a bit during the swing. Plus it seemed somehow logical to have all the fingers on the grip - after all who ever heard of someone chopping wood with an overlapping grip ?

Anyway, on an impulse over the Christmas break I decided to experiment by going back to my old interlocking grip. The first few balls on the range it felt a bit feeble just using the bottom 3 fingers of the right hand , but then suddenly a couple of shots took off and I realised that I was getting a more powerful, "swishy" release through the ball. The difference in clubhead speed was palpable.I speculate that maybe having the fingers higher up the handle I now have a longer "lever" to hit the dumb thing with ?

Anyway, on the course I reckon I've gained half a club distance without any apparent loss of control. Any comments ?
less interference.

Peter
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