Joined: 12:46 AM - Dec 07, 2011

3:23 PM - Dec 28, 2011 #81

that has been demonstrated here many times is that people often see what they want to see.

Hogan rolls his lead foot onto the inside edge but his heel never leaves the ground. When you look at the video frame by frame you can see that his heel never moves up and only the outside edge clears the ground. It is the same in the full swing video of Hogan in front of the grid and in home video of Hogan taken by some friends when he vacationed with them. His lead foot rolls to the inside edge in the back swing and to the outside edge in the through swing.

Peter
Ummmmm, Peter, if we were in court, and you stood in front of the jury and said:

"Hogan rolls his lead foot onto the inside edge but his heel never leaves the ground. When you look at the video frame by frame you can see that his heel never moves up and only the outside edge clears the ground."

I would then quiclky rise and say:
"Your Honor, based on the statement from the defense, he specifically said that "the outside edge clears the ground."

This "clearing the ground" is exactly what I see. In most swings, the complete heel clears, and in some swings, only the outside edge clears, but there always appears to be clearance.

Hogan may have said he "didn't pay any attention to what his left heel did during the swing" because it's something that was ""normal"" to him. If we were to walk up to random people at different driving ranges today and ask them why they don't raise their left heel they would most likely respond with " I don't pay any attention to what my left heel does during the swing. I haven't payed any attention to it." But not because they don't pay attention to it, but because they never saw anyone else doing this and never made it a part of the swing.

I can imaging that today, if the top 5 money leaders on tour all of a sudden started to lift their left heel, the same swing mechanic would roll downhill to local driving ranges.

My main reason for being curious about the left heel is:

Why did old-schoolers do it?
(my guess is cause they saw the guy next to them doing it, and when he did do it, his ball went further)

Did it make a difference in distance/accuracy?
(my guess would be increased distance/decreased accuracy)

At what point in golf history did it become more popular to not raise it?
(I have no guess, but I would think it would have something to do with whoever the hottest player was at the time that didn't do it, and consistently won more than the guys that did it)

My other reason for wanting to experiment/add this to my swing is cause Hogan did it. Has nothing to do with distance or accuracy in my case.

Also, my initial thought was related to flexibility issues. But when I look at old-schoolers, the majority of swings I see guys lifting it. Then the question comes to mind: were all the old-schoolers not flexible? How about Hogan, Arnie, and Jack in their youth. There are swings of them in their teens and early 20's lifting the left heel. Maybe everybody was just stiff as a board back then lol......but that isn't likely.
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Joined: 12:00 AM - Jan 01, 1970

3:58 PM - Dec 28, 2011 #82

I took a close look at this sequence and Hogan's heel appears to move back towards his trail foot a significant amount between frame 10 and 18.


As far as I can tell it is not possible to say for certain that Hogan's lead heel remained on the ground through this swing. If it did it was just the inner edge though it certainly does not lift up high like Nicklaus or Jones. It does appear that there is a rather decisive plant and then a roll onto the outer edge of the foot. There is more interesting stuff on the follow through...

Regards, Herbert
and much closer than that

Peter
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Joined: 12:00 AM - Jan 01, 1970

3:59 PM - Dec 28, 2011 #83


The heel definitely moves up there?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRXW3-rlxnQ

Regards, Herbert

is there any video that shows Hogan not raising his heel.

Peter
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Joined: 12:00 AM - Jan 01, 1970

4:13 PM - Dec 28, 2011 #84

Ummmmm, Peter, if we were in court, and you stood in front of the jury and said:

"Hogan rolls his lead foot onto the inside edge but his heel never leaves the ground. When you look at the video frame by frame you can see that his heel never moves up and only the outside edge clears the ground."

I would then quiclky rise and say:
"Your Honor, based on the statement from the defense, he specifically said that "the outside edge clears the ground."

This "clearing the ground" is exactly what I see. In most swings, the complete heel clears, and in some swings, only the outside edge clears, but there always appears to be clearance.

Hogan may have said he "didn't pay any attention to what his left heel did during the swing" because it's something that was ""normal"" to him. If we were to walk up to random people at different driving ranges today and ask them why they don't raise their left heel they would most likely respond with " I don't pay any attention to what my left heel does during the swing. I haven't payed any attention to it." But not because they don't pay attention to it, but because they never saw anyone else doing this and never made it a part of the swing.

I can imaging that today, if the top 5 money leaders on tour all of a sudden started to lift their left heel, the same swing mechanic would roll downhill to local driving ranges.

My main reason for being curious about the left heel is:

Why did old-schoolers do it?
(my guess is cause they saw the guy next to them doing it, and when he did do it, his ball went further)

Did it make a difference in distance/accuracy?
(my guess would be increased distance/decreased accuracy)

At what point in golf history did it become more popular to not raise it?
(I have no guess, but I would think it would have something to do with whoever the hottest player was at the time that didn't do it, and consistently won more than the guys that did it)

My other reason for wanting to experiment/add this to my swing is cause Hogan did it. Has nothing to do with distance or accuracy in my case.

Also, my initial thought was related to flexibility issues. But when I look at old-schoolers, the majority of swings I see guys lifting it. Then the question comes to mind: were all the old-schoolers not flexible? How about Hogan, Arnie, and Jack in their youth. There are swings of them in their teens and early 20's lifting the left heel. Maybe everybody was just stiff as a board back then lol......but that isn't likely.
Rolling and lifting are not the same and in some of the swings discussed here there is a VERY big difference in effect between the two and the sequencing.

There are several reasons one might lift the lead side heel. Bobby Jones advocated a full hip turn. With a large hip turn most will need to raise their lead heel. Today 'X Factor' is in vogue and keeping the lead heel flat helps limit hip turn and increases the differential between shoulder and hip turn.

There are a number of differentials between swings of the '50s' and swings of today. Some are stylistic, some are substantive and some are both.

Since Hogan raised his heel in some swings and didn't in others you will need to decide which aesthetic you prefer or look into the reasons for the difference.

Peter
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Joined: 8:30 AM - Jan 13, 2001

4:18 PM - Dec 28, 2011 #85

Jones had a rather large X factor in his downswing which leads me to believe that perhaps X factor at the top of the backswing is not all that important.

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: 12:46 AM - Dec 07, 2011

4:37 PM - Dec 28, 2011 #86

Rolling and lifting are not the same and in some of the swings discussed here there is a VERY big difference in effect between the two and the sequencing.

There are several reasons one might lift the lead side heel. Bobby Jones advocated a full hip turn. With a large hip turn most will need to raise their lead heel. Today 'X Factor' is in vogue and keeping the lead heel flat helps limit hip turn and increases the differential between shoulder and hip turn.

There are a number of differentials between swings of the '50s' and swings of today. Some are stylistic, some are substantive and some are both.

Since Hogan raised his heel in some swings and didn't in others you will need to decide which aesthetic you prefer or look into the reasons for the difference.

Peter
One of my physical issues is that I am a former natural bodybuilder with extra chest and bicep mass. since I've started this project, I've always had to "force" myself to get all the way around and to the top, cause my left muscular boob was in the way. But I was always doing this with a flat left heel. My thinking is that if I give it a little play, or lift it, I will get more turn and make it to the top without major strain.

How the heck did I miss seeing this left foot/heel business all these months??? My explanation: I saw it, but I was trying to convince myself (and my wife) that I was not old, and had lots of flexibility, and didn't HAVE to raise my heel. Man! Is this not my try at duplicating Hogan??????.......well then I should be trying to do whatever the freak he is doing........foot dance and all lol.

Can't wait to experiment with it.
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Joined: 8:30 AM - Jan 13, 2001

4:44 PM - Dec 28, 2011 #87

I've been reviewing my share of Hogan videos and have yet to see a full swing of him with his left heel planted.

Has anyone seen any full-swing vid of Hogan where his left heel DOESN'T raise as he gets to the top?
Here is what Hogan said about the matter:


Regards, Herbert
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Joined: 8:30 AM - Jan 13, 2001

4:56 PM - Dec 28, 2011 #88

and much closer than that

Peter
How about posting your analysis?

Regards, Herbert

Last edited by gHerbert on 5:11 PM - Dec 28, 2011, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: 7:22 PM - Oct 11, 2001

8:52 PM - Dec 28, 2011 #89

Rolling and lifting are not the same and in some of the swings discussed here there is a VERY big difference in effect between the two and the sequencing.

There are several reasons one might lift the lead side heel. Bobby Jones advocated a full hip turn. With a large hip turn most will need to raise their lead heel. Today 'X Factor' is in vogue and keeping the lead heel flat helps limit hip turn and increases the differential between shoulder and hip turn.

There are a number of differentials between swings of the '50s' and swings of today. Some are stylistic, some are substantive and some are both.

Since Hogan raised his heel in some swings and didn't in others you will need to decide which aesthetic you prefer or look into the reasons for the difference.

Peter
Peter - "Since Hogan raised his heel in some swings and didn't in others you will need to decide which aesthetic you prefer or look into the reasons for the difference."

It's interesting that here in this DG we are now discussing an aspect of the swing that has been debated many times here regarding the Moe swing - though more often it was about Moe's trail foot being flat or not. The pure NG'rs and Graves insisting Moe's trail foot was flat, though young and old Moe swings clearly show it rolls.

Peter's point is a good one...look to the reasons why one would let the heel come up on some swings and not on other swings. I have pics of Tiger making all out swings with irons when his back foot remains flat and also when it doesn't.

Herbert's post from The Five is instructive also. Anthony has stated that for now his only goal is to emulate Hogan aesthetically...so he is good to go either way.

Kevin
The Authentic Golfer
A Blueprint For Golf Excellence

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
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Joined: 8:30 AM - Jan 13, 2001

8:58 AM - Dec 29, 2011 #90

is there any video that shows Hogan not raising his heel.

Peter
The video shown by McIrishman is inconclusive imho.

Regards, Herbert
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