My first 'benchmark' video with the new PB swing.

My first 'benchmark' video with the new PB swing.

Joined: March 12th, 2012, 7:36 pm

March 20th, 2012, 4:38 am #1

Hey guy,

I went out to the range today and took some video so that I have a benchmark video of my swing 1 week into Paul Bertholy's book. I've done Program 1 for a week+, and I've done Program 2 (2 sets of 5). I just started it yesterday.

I'll start with the video first, and then post an image of some stills.

Video from the front. Left is last year. Right is from today.

Video from DTL. Left is last year. Right is from today.

Here is an image with stills of the swings



My initial thoughts... looking at Pictures 2 and 3... they are scary. I had a concern in program 1 that the Keystone Position might do this to my back swing... and my prediction came true. I'm bring the club back so far inside, it's ridiculous. I took these two videos near the first few balls of my bucket and once I saw it on camera immediately started working on my one piece takeaway as I was quite blown away by this. You can see my right wrist in 2 & 3 just wants to cup immediately like in the Keystone position of Program 1. Yuck.

Still 4, I'm pretty surprised how flexed my right knee is. I continually practice at home with a nearly stiff right leg, a little flexed, but nothing this much. Feel is so different than real, and it's really hurting my hip turn. My shoulder plane appears to be much better on the right side.

Still 5 shows my bad habit creepin up of bringing my right heel up early. However, I'm much more on plane on the right side. Looking at my hands in #5 is quite telling. You can tell on the left side I'm way over the top and cooked.

Still #6 much of the same as 5. I put two little red lines (hard to see) where the club face is. Much more on plane on the right side. Left side, all I can hope for is a pull.

Still #7 is impact. Can see a little more Rod and Claw on the right side, actually being able to see between both arms.

#8 follow through you can see on the left an out to in swing. The arms are nearly entirely hidden behind the body. Right side is a bit more out and the hands are rolling over.

#9 follow through is not proper to what's in the book. After I hit this shot, I would remember half way through my ball flight and go to the full finished position.

#11 is once again crazy inside. That keystone position memory is really make my right wrist want to break early.

#12 still have that overly flexed right knee hurting my hip turn. Elbow is a bit more in to the body than on the left.

#13 Quite surprisingly, the lag angle is not much better on the right than on the left. It appears the left side the left arm and club at parallel is just under 135 degrees. The right side is maybe 120-125 degrees as the hands are a little closer to the trail leg on the right.

#14 the hands are not where they need to be. Still getting fooled by the hit impulse I guess but they are not ahead of the ball. I believe quit a bit of this is caused by 2 things. If I were to have my hands ahead of the ball in this image, I would hit thin. The reason being is that my right foot comes up and I also come out of of my stance a bit 'shortening the length of the arc in my swing in relation to the ball'. I need to keep that foot down and stay down as well, reverse C and little more, so that I can get those hands ahead of the ball and make solid contact. When I try to get the hands further up, I wasn't making solid contact.

#15 shows quite a bit of difference in the wrists. The left and spun under in the picture on the right. Much more desirable.

----------------------------

Any comments or suggestions out there? My typical ball flight today was 95% straight. Probably 30% ever ever ever so slight straight fades. Basically straight. 20% straight. 50% straight high draw (much more so than the fade).

I hit mostly my 9 iron, but also hit 7, 5, 3, Driver. 7 was going straight, 5 and 3 were either straight or straight draw/hooking. A couple slight pull hooks but not many to speak of.

I only had maybe 2 shanks, and 2 screaming low slices.

It felt like I was getting amazing lag, but seeing it on video... it's not much. It's moreso the new feeling of 'turning the wrists over' after impact.

I wasn't going to post the video because of how far back inside I was taking it, as after I saw that on video I spent the rest of my bucket swing with a one piece takeaway. That's when I took my 7 iron and hit some beautifully straight shots.

The one thing I noticed with my Driver, is that I seem to pop it up with this 'new swing'. I must be coming in steep. I wonder if I need to step away from the ball a bit further so my hands have time and room to turn over.

I'll be working on Program 2 all week, and hopefully I can retain that master move angle better and not have it affect a one piece takeaway.

What do you guys see in my swing? Thanks for any comments or advice.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 21st, 2012, 12:47 am #2

o Your ball position is pretty far back (photo #10). Assuming that club is a wedge, the ball should be no further back than under your sternum (based on the 'composite' pro from 'Swing Like A Pro'.

o You move your hips closer to the ball (note the position of your behind in photo #2 vs photo #6). This makes your torso more vertical in the downswing and makes it VERY difficult for you to get your trail elbow as far forward as you would have been practicing in the drills.

o The drills have increased your angle retention (photo 13 old vs new - your hands are closer to the target in the new) but your hands should be in front of your trail thigh at that point in your swing. You will not be able to get your hands that far forward with that much bend at the elbow in your trail arm unless there is 'space' for your trail upper arm to move closer to the target. With your current posture your torso is in the way.

o Your impact position is poor (more of a 'Y' shape than a 'y' shape) and that with a ball position to far back. With a proper ball position your hands would be even further behind the ball.

When you do the drills your trail elbow goes WAY forward but you still need a body position that will accommodate your trail elbow getting further forward.

You mention that you felt that you had more lag but video didn't show it. This is VERY common and why you need objective feedback (video - even others watching can report incorrectly). 'Feel' rarely corresponds to 'real' at least not until 'feel' is highly educated by 'real' feedback.

Peter
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 22nd, 2004, 9:58 pm

March 21st, 2012, 1:01 am #3

Hey guy,

I went out to the range today and took some video so that I have a benchmark video of my swing 1 week into Paul Bertholy's book. I've done Program 1 for a week+, and I've done Program 2 (2 sets of 5). I just started it yesterday.

I'll start with the video first, and then post an image of some stills.

Video from the front. Left is last year. Right is from today.

Video from DTL. Left is last year. Right is from today.

Here is an image with stills of the swings



My initial thoughts... looking at Pictures 2 and 3... they are scary. I had a concern in program 1 that the Keystone Position might do this to my back swing... and my prediction came true. I'm bring the club back so far inside, it's ridiculous. I took these two videos near the first few balls of my bucket and once I saw it on camera immediately started working on my one piece takeaway as I was quite blown away by this. You can see my right wrist in 2 & 3 just wants to cup immediately like in the Keystone position of Program 1. Yuck.

Still 4, I'm pretty surprised how flexed my right knee is. I continually practice at home with a nearly stiff right leg, a little flexed, but nothing this much. Feel is so different than real, and it's really hurting my hip turn. My shoulder plane appears to be much better on the right side.

Still 5 shows my bad habit creepin up of bringing my right heel up early. However, I'm much more on plane on the right side. Looking at my hands in #5 is quite telling. You can tell on the left side I'm way over the top and cooked.

Still #6 much of the same as 5. I put two little red lines (hard to see) where the club face is. Much more on plane on the right side. Left side, all I can hope for is a pull.

Still #7 is impact. Can see a little more Rod and Claw on the right side, actually being able to see between both arms.

#8 follow through you can see on the left an out to in swing. The arms are nearly entirely hidden behind the body. Right side is a bit more out and the hands are rolling over.

#9 follow through is not proper to what's in the book. After I hit this shot, I would remember half way through my ball flight and go to the full finished position.

#11 is once again crazy inside. That keystone position memory is really make my right wrist want to break early.

#12 still have that overly flexed right knee hurting my hip turn. Elbow is a bit more in to the body than on the left.

#13 Quite surprisingly, the lag angle is not much better on the right than on the left. It appears the left side the left arm and club at parallel is just under 135 degrees. The right side is maybe 120-125 degrees as the hands are a little closer to the trail leg on the right.

#14 the hands are not where they need to be. Still getting fooled by the hit impulse I guess but they are not ahead of the ball. I believe quit a bit of this is caused by 2 things. If I were to have my hands ahead of the ball in this image, I would hit thin. The reason being is that my right foot comes up and I also come out of of my stance a bit 'shortening the length of the arc in my swing in relation to the ball'. I need to keep that foot down and stay down as well, reverse C and little more, so that I can get those hands ahead of the ball and make solid contact. When I try to get the hands further up, I wasn't making solid contact.

#15 shows quite a bit of difference in the wrists. The left and spun under in the picture on the right. Much more desirable.

----------------------------

Any comments or suggestions out there? My typical ball flight today was 95% straight. Probably 30% ever ever ever so slight straight fades. Basically straight. 20% straight. 50% straight high draw (much more so than the fade).

I hit mostly my 9 iron, but also hit 7, 5, 3, Driver. 7 was going straight, 5 and 3 were either straight or straight draw/hooking. A couple slight pull hooks but not many to speak of.

I only had maybe 2 shanks, and 2 screaming low slices.

It felt like I was getting amazing lag, but seeing it on video... it's not much. It's moreso the new feeling of 'turning the wrists over' after impact.

I wasn't going to post the video because of how far back inside I was taking it, as after I saw that on video I spent the rest of my bucket swing with a one piece takeaway. That's when I took my 7 iron and hit some beautifully straight shots.

The one thing I noticed with my Driver, is that I seem to pop it up with this 'new swing'. I must be coming in steep. I wonder if I need to step away from the ball a bit further so my hands have time and room to turn over.

I'll be working on Program 2 all week, and hopefully I can retain that master move angle better and not have it affect a one piece takeaway.

What do you guys see in my swing? Thanks for any comments or advice.
The Bertholy swing is marginally better in almost
every respect. If you continue the drills it will
slowly get better.

The drills should not have you yanking the club inside.
You can fix that.

Your trail heel pops up way too early. It should be
pulled up by the action.

Your setup needs work, Goat humper.

Keep at it and you will like the results.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 12th, 2012, 7:36 pm

March 21st, 2012, 1:15 am #4

o Your ball position is pretty far back (photo #10). Assuming that club is a wedge, the ball should be no further back than under your sternum (based on the 'composite' pro from 'Swing Like A Pro'.

o You move your hips closer to the ball (note the position of your behind in photo #2 vs photo #6). This makes your torso more vertical in the downswing and makes it VERY difficult for you to get your trail elbow as far forward as you would have been practicing in the drills.

o The drills have increased your angle retention (photo 13 old vs new - your hands are closer to the target in the new) but your hands should be in front of your trail thigh at that point in your swing. You will not be able to get your hands that far forward with that much bend at the elbow in your trail arm unless there is 'space' for your trail upper arm to move closer to the target. With your current posture your torso is in the way.

o Your impact position is poor (more of a 'Y' shape than a 'y' shape) and that with a ball position to far back. With a proper ball position your hands would be even further behind the ball.

When you do the drills your trail elbow goes WAY forward but you still need a body position that will accommodate your trail elbow getting further forward.

You mention that you felt that you had more lag but video didn't show it. This is VERY common and why you need objective feedback (video - even others watching can report incorrectly). 'Feel' rarely corresponds to 'real' at least not until 'feel' is highly educated by 'real' feedback.

Peter
Thanks for the feedback. I noticed that I was quite upright as well, even more so now than before. I was practicing the drills at lunch with a more 'athletic' stance. More bent in the knees and bent over at the back. Is this what you are suggesting for being able to get the trail elbow through with as much bend as is needed?

Yeah, I do love this camera. Great objective feedback for less than $100. Last year I took it out every 1-2 weeks, at least at the start of the year. I hope to do the same this year as well.

Can you clarify for me what you mean by the Y vs the y. Is that referring to the kind of "reverse-C" shape talked about in the book at impact? Or are you referring to something in the DTL view?

Also, when you say "When you do the drills your trail elbow goes WAY forward but you still need a body position that will accommodate your trail elbow getting further forward.". Is the trail elbow moving forward a good thing? I'm assuming yes, but with my body in the way, it can't get through to the target. Is that correct?
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 21st, 2012, 1:33 am #5

When you look at impact from a perspective perpendicular to the target line, the club and your lead arm should form a straight line. With an iron shot the top of that line (your shoulder) will be closer to the target. Combined with your trail arm the shape formed is a 'y'. When the club head is passing your hands before impact that means it's already passed the straight line position and the shape formed at impact is like a 'Y'.

From a perspective parallel to the target line you need to maintain your spine angle. You have enough space at address (though most pros would be bent over the ball more) but you loose that space by moving your hips towards the ball (which makes your spine angle more vertical). Since the ball doesn't move further away you don't have the option to move your arms further away so your trail upper arm is obstructed from moving forward by your torso.

If your trail elbow does not move far enough forward to place your hands over the ball with the club still apx horizontal, it is VERY difficult to get consistent, clean contact. Once the angle between the club and your lead arm starts to release your hands will slow down while the club head speeds up (physics) so you pretty much need to have your hands over or ahead of the ball before that happens.

Many ams 'cheat' by moving the ball position back in their stance to make sure this happens. The 'composite pro' developed by Dr. Ralph Mann has a ball position under the lead breast for a 5 iron and slightly ahead of the sternum for a wedge.

Peter
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 12th, 2012, 7:36 pm

March 21st, 2012, 2:01 am #6

Gotchya, thanks.

I googled "Tiger at impact" and found some good y positions in the face on view.

I'll keep these things in mind during the drills and the next time out at the range.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 12th, 2012, 7:36 pm

March 24th, 2012, 2:04 am #7

Hey guy,

I went out to the range today and took some video so that I have a benchmark video of my swing 1 week into Paul Bertholy's book. I've done Program 1 for a week+, and I've done Program 2 (2 sets of 5). I just started it yesterday.

I'll start with the video first, and then post an image of some stills.

Video from the front. Left is last year. Right is from today.

Video from DTL. Left is last year. Right is from today.

Here is an image with stills of the swings



My initial thoughts... looking at Pictures 2 and 3... they are scary. I had a concern in program 1 that the Keystone Position might do this to my back swing... and my prediction came true. I'm bring the club back so far inside, it's ridiculous. I took these two videos near the first few balls of my bucket and once I saw it on camera immediately started working on my one piece takeaway as I was quite blown away by this. You can see my right wrist in 2 & 3 just wants to cup immediately like in the Keystone position of Program 1. Yuck.

Still 4, I'm pretty surprised how flexed my right knee is. I continually practice at home with a nearly stiff right leg, a little flexed, but nothing this much. Feel is so different than real, and it's really hurting my hip turn. My shoulder plane appears to be much better on the right side.

Still 5 shows my bad habit creepin up of bringing my right heel up early. However, I'm much more on plane on the right side. Looking at my hands in #5 is quite telling. You can tell on the left side I'm way over the top and cooked.

Still #6 much of the same as 5. I put two little red lines (hard to see) where the club face is. Much more on plane on the right side. Left side, all I can hope for is a pull.

Still #7 is impact. Can see a little more Rod and Claw on the right side, actually being able to see between both arms.

#8 follow through you can see on the left an out to in swing. The arms are nearly entirely hidden behind the body. Right side is a bit more out and the hands are rolling over.

#9 follow through is not proper to what's in the book. After I hit this shot, I would remember half way through my ball flight and go to the full finished position.

#11 is once again crazy inside. That keystone position memory is really make my right wrist want to break early.

#12 still have that overly flexed right knee hurting my hip turn. Elbow is a bit more in to the body than on the left.

#13 Quite surprisingly, the lag angle is not much better on the right than on the left. It appears the left side the left arm and club at parallel is just under 135 degrees. The right side is maybe 120-125 degrees as the hands are a little closer to the trail leg on the right.

#14 the hands are not where they need to be. Still getting fooled by the hit impulse I guess but they are not ahead of the ball. I believe quit a bit of this is caused by 2 things. If I were to have my hands ahead of the ball in this image, I would hit thin. The reason being is that my right foot comes up and I also come out of of my stance a bit 'shortening the length of the arc in my swing in relation to the ball'. I need to keep that foot down and stay down as well, reverse C and little more, so that I can get those hands ahead of the ball and make solid contact. When I try to get the hands further up, I wasn't making solid contact.

#15 shows quite a bit of difference in the wrists. The left and spun under in the picture on the right. Much more desirable.

----------------------------

Any comments or suggestions out there? My typical ball flight today was 95% straight. Probably 30% ever ever ever so slight straight fades. Basically straight. 20% straight. 50% straight high draw (much more so than the fade).

I hit mostly my 9 iron, but also hit 7, 5, 3, Driver. 7 was going straight, 5 and 3 were either straight or straight draw/hooking. A couple slight pull hooks but not many to speak of.

I only had maybe 2 shanks, and 2 screaming low slices.

It felt like I was getting amazing lag, but seeing it on video... it's not much. It's moreso the new feeling of 'turning the wrists over' after impact.

I wasn't going to post the video because of how far back inside I was taking it, as after I saw that on video I spent the rest of my bucket swing with a one piece takeaway. That's when I took my 7 iron and hit some beautifully straight shots.

The one thing I noticed with my Driver, is that I seem to pop it up with this 'new swing'. I must be coming in steep. I wonder if I need to step away from the ball a bit further so my hands have time and room to turn over.

I'll be working on Program 2 all week, and hopefully I can retain that master move angle better and not have it affect a one piece takeaway.

What do you guys see in my swing? Thanks for any comments or advice.
Maybe that's the wrong question as I should just be doing my programs, and not thinking about my swing... but what should I be working on to fix my slight pull.

If anything, I'd say today's video has regressed from the original video I posted above.

Here's a couple swings. I was hitting consistent pulls at the range today. 10-15 yard pulls with a 9 iron. I began straightening my leg a bit more on the back swing (than I was at the start of the range session) and my pulls descreased. To about 4-7 yards. The swing on the left was a 5 yard pull. The swing on the right was about a 1-2 yard pull.

I thought I had it on 210fps, but unfortunately I had it on regular video mode. I tried to slow it down as much as I could with video editing software, but it's not quite comparable to the original.

Here is the video


What do I need to do to get rid of the pull? Should I work on 'rotating around the right hip' on the DS as opposed to moving that first, or is my elbow just not finding my navel, or do I need to reverse C so to speak so I don't make that over the top shoulder roll move with my shoulders as much.

I want to fix my plane before I continue to work on gaining the extra lag. Or is it the lag that I need, so that I don't case OTT?
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

March 24th, 2012, 3:44 am #8

Gotchya, thanks.

I googled "Tiger at impact" and found some good y positions in the face on view.

I'll keep these things in mind during the drills and the next time out at the range.
http://authenticgolf.net/wordpress/?page_id=939

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 24th, 2012, 5:13 am #9

Maybe that's the wrong question as I should just be doing my programs, and not thinking about my swing... but what should I be working on to fix my slight pull.

If anything, I'd say today's video has regressed from the original video I posted above.

Here's a couple swings. I was hitting consistent pulls at the range today. 10-15 yard pulls with a 9 iron. I began straightening my leg a bit more on the back swing (than I was at the start of the range session) and my pulls descreased. To about 4-7 yards. The swing on the left was a 5 yard pull. The swing on the right was about a 1-2 yard pull.

I thought I had it on 210fps, but unfortunately I had it on regular video mode. I tried to slow it down as much as I could with video editing software, but it's not quite comparable to the original.

Here is the video


What do I need to do to get rid of the pull? Should I work on 'rotating around the right hip' on the DS as opposed to moving that first, or is my elbow just not finding my navel, or do I need to reverse C so to speak so I don't make that over the top shoulder roll move with my shoulders as much.

I want to fix my plane before I continue to work on gaining the extra lag. Or is it the lag that I need, so that I don't case OTT?
particularly focus on the Master Move. You are not exhibiting the master move in your swing. It is the Master Move that gets you under the plane and would prevent pulls. In your video it will be exhibited by a 'flattening' of the club in the initial move down along with the trail elbow going down and that before there is any rotation.

You can also swing with a path trainer that will give you feedback about swing plane. <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/72052/me ... to+Golf%27"> this is what I use but it does require that you start the swing with the clubhead behind the trainer.

Peter</a>
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 12th, 2012, 7:36 pm

March 24th, 2012, 5:05 pm #10

Thanks. I've got Program 3 next. I've only been doing Program 1&2 for the past 2 weeks now. I think that program 3 will be quite helpful. When I have the weighted club in my hand, and make a full swing, I seem to feel myself hitting the position from Program 1 & 2 much better. Put a club in my hand over the ball, and not so much. I mean... I could likely make it look exactly the same but I would be shanking the ball and dusting it all over the place. Guess I gotta just keep casting for now and playing with what I have until I've got a lock on all the programs and it naturally makes its way into my real swing.

Here is me swinging my weighted club at full speed. (210fps so that's why it is slow). It seems like I exhibit the master move here in my apartment. Is this what I want to achieve when over the golf ball with a real club, or is this an over-exaggeration?
Quote
Like
Share