My concern about golf instructors

My concern about golf instructors

Joined: October 14th, 2007, 1:46 pm

May 7th, 2009, 3:28 pm #1

For the past 2 years, I had tried several golf swing theories and techniques. The main reason for the multiple switching is basically trying to keep the ball into play. As a former 'fader' of the ball, I was shocked and dismayed about developing a low, left hook 2 seasons ago. As I would switched to new swings theories, I was able to play ok, but never to the point (score wise) where I used to fade the ball.

I went to a few instructors. One instructor had me worked on a monitor. Their fixes would work a little for awhile, but I still had a tendacy to break down during the round.

Anyway, I did resolve my issue that had been holding me back from truly enjoying the game. It was such an easy fix. It bothers me that no instructor picked up on it. The problem was that my hands did not correctly drop down into the slot. Once I dropped my hands correctly rather having them racing ahead of my body, I swing went from low, left hook to straight ball flight, even back to my old fade. The LPG swing showed me this.

Now, I can play a One Plane Swing, Stack and Tilt, or just a plain old single axis swing. Each swing is working well once I figured out what to do with the hands. What really bugs me is that the instructors that I went to really didn't bother to closely watch what I was doing doing. Rather, they starting teaching me a way to swing, usually their opinionated philosophy.

Today, I am using a simple single axis swing and enjoying the game once again. I am afraid what my next golf hiccup is going to be. I know it is just lurking out there, somewhere.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 12th, 2001, 12:35 am

May 8th, 2009, 4:52 am #2

I understand your frustration - I have a question.

Why do you think it would break down during the round?

Todd
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 14th, 2007, 1:46 pm

May 8th, 2009, 2:43 pm #3

Hi Todd.

I should clarify when I wrote 'Instructors'. I should have said 'some instructors', not 'ALL instructors'.

Unfortunately, in your field there are golf teachers who just don't know what they are doing. I am sure that if I went to a top instructor in the area or flew out to a golf camp for three days, I would had swing issues resolved. But for the working man, this type of instructional attention is almost unattainable. As for why I think the instructor's band aid would breakdown is because it did breakdown.

As you know, one swing doesn't fit all golfers. I am a tall person, good shape, bad back, and whose arms are shorter than average. To teach a swing to me and the same swing to a person who is short and plump would probably not work very well. Golf theories O.K. (S&T, Moe Norman, Natural Golf) Golf 'cookie cutter' swings, not O.K., meaning I can't swing exactly like Moe, Woods, or Baddeley.

Of course, just my opinion based upon personal experience.

JK
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 22nd, 2004, 9:58 pm

May 9th, 2009, 2:16 pm #4

with short arms? Wal, cir cul tha wah guns cookie. Hide tha wim men and chil drun.
wah hah. I wonder if John Wayne was a good golfer?
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 12th, 2001, 12:35 am

May 9th, 2009, 5:21 pm #5

Hi Todd.

I should clarify when I wrote 'Instructors'. I should have said 'some instructors', not 'ALL instructors'.

Unfortunately, in your field there are golf teachers who just don't know what they are doing. I am sure that if I went to a top instructor in the area or flew out to a golf camp for three days, I would had swing issues resolved. But for the working man, this type of instructional attention is almost unattainable. As for why I think the instructor's band aid would breakdown is because it did breakdown.

As you know, one swing doesn't fit all golfers. I am a tall person, good shape, bad back, and whose arms are shorter than average. To teach a swing to me and the same swing to a person who is short and plump would probably not work very well. Golf theories O.K. (S&T, Moe Norman, Natural Golf) Golf 'cookie cutter' swings, not O.K., meaning I can't swing exactly like Moe, Woods, or Baddeley.

Of course, just my opinion based upon personal experience.

JK
Good players know that it comes down to club mechanics which is the movement of the golf club which we call swing plane. As many on this forum know and discuss is that there are key positions necessary to achieve the proper strike on a golf ball. Bertholy demonstrates these positions as do many instructors. :Great players demonstrate these positions even they often don't know how and are varied to a high degree.

The Question I am posing is this "With the human body as a machine, what is the easiest way to achieve the proper body mechanics to hit these positions?". When I ask this question, I am not only referring to bio-mechanics. I am also referring to the brain and what it must do....as there is presently evidence that there are positions in the golf swing where the brain is less involved than others (mostly regarding address position).

Since there is so much going on in the body/brain connection in regards to striking a stationary ball on the ground, as a teacher and learner, is it important to continue to ask the question 'What is the easiest way".

Yes, all people are different yet impact with a golf ball remains the same in most respects. How you get there is what separates those who are consistent from those who are not.

I do not look at Moe's golf swing as "Cookie Cutter". You put the arms in line with the club shaft and you impact on the same line. The club follows a path which helps you achieve the proper path to strike the correct part of the ball. You see, this is about simplicity - not a method.

Learning something and it being simple are different subjects altogether. Learning something is where you find most people lack understanding. For example, you might find driving a car simple but to someone learning it is very difficult.

Fundamentally the goal is to move the golf club correctly so that it has a path and face angle that imparts consistent spin and flight on the golf ball maximizing your potential for speed.

Furthermore, consistency is the determining factor regarding these issues. If something works one time out of ten, can you actually say it is working? In the world of golf instruction, which I have been in for years even with the "best" instructors that you know today, I can tell you that they are guessing at what is right for you. They might know where they want the club and what it should look like but they do not know biomechanics. They follow a model that has been passed down for years and continues to get validated by those who play the game -who do not look remotely the same when they swing a golf club. (Except for key elements).

Therefore, the key elements, as many on this forum agree are what are necessary to become a great ball striker. I would like to suggest one step further and propose finding an easier way (both physically and mentally) to achieve these key positions - to which I believe Moe Norman discovered.

Therefore, the best swing for you is one where the club aligns on plane and moves on plane - and you find a simple way to achieve the positions that help you do that. Band-aids are nothing in my world. There is no such thing - the club and body either moves correctly or they do not. If the club is not moving correctly, it has something to do with how you (the body) is moving.

Furthermore, instruction is not unattainable for you. You can teach yourself just as I have done and everyone who can strike a golf ball has done. It is all about taking responsibility for your own learning, dedicating yourself to that learning and following through. The information is available.

And here is the final question. When you take responsibility for your learning, what are you going to do?

Todd

Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

May 9th, 2009, 7:33 pm #6

To answer your first question: Simple Swing.

Learning is very interesting. Folks who learned something as a child lets say roller skating can be really callous toward someone who is trying to learn as an adult. Roller skating is so easy how could anybody flail around and fall over all the time like that? Hey lets make fun of the dufus! That same person is the sort who gets really bent out of shape when the tables are reversed. I remember standing in the pro shop of a local course a few years back listening to the starter and a couple young pros making fun of each person as they teed off. I was thinking man those folks are paying your salaries and not only that most of them probably make more in a couple months then you do in a year.

I am not so sure that other pros are guessing about what they want to the swing to look like I think that they are guessing about how to get a player to feel and perform the correct movements. Of course that might be what you are getting at? I know that golfers who take lessons need to empty their cup as Remington might say and actually do what the instructor says. I bet that you run into golfers all the time who want to tell you what is wrong and what they need to do to improve. Often I think we hacks want to fix what is not broken while ignoring the real need. I know one thing for sure and that is that real change is not easy to do. All of the folks here who have made real changes to their there swings have my respect. Hey I have actually done so myself through certain drills which is something that is a bit encouraging

Best Regards, Herbert
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

May 9th, 2009, 8:14 pm #7

Good players know that it comes down to club mechanics which is the movement of the golf club which we call swing plane. As many on this forum know and discuss is that there are key positions necessary to achieve the proper strike on a golf ball. Bertholy demonstrates these positions as do many instructors. :Great players demonstrate these positions even they often don't know how and are varied to a high degree.

The Question I am posing is this "With the human body as a machine, what is the easiest way to achieve the proper body mechanics to hit these positions?". When I ask this question, I am not only referring to bio-mechanics. I am also referring to the brain and what it must do....as there is presently evidence that there are positions in the golf swing where the brain is less involved than others (mostly regarding address position).

Since there is so much going on in the body/brain connection in regards to striking a stationary ball on the ground, as a teacher and learner, is it important to continue to ask the question 'What is the easiest way".

Yes, all people are different yet impact with a golf ball remains the same in most respects. How you get there is what separates those who are consistent from those who are not.

I do not look at Moe's golf swing as "Cookie Cutter". You put the arms in line with the club shaft and you impact on the same line. The club follows a path which helps you achieve the proper path to strike the correct part of the ball. You see, this is about simplicity - not a method.

Learning something and it being simple are different subjects altogether. Learning something is where you find most people lack understanding. For example, you might find driving a car simple but to someone learning it is very difficult.

Fundamentally the goal is to move the golf club correctly so that it has a path and face angle that imparts consistent spin and flight on the golf ball maximizing your potential for speed.

Furthermore, consistency is the determining factor regarding these issues. If something works one time out of ten, can you actually say it is working? In the world of golf instruction, which I have been in for years even with the "best" instructors that you know today, I can tell you that they are guessing at what is right for you. They might know where they want the club and what it should look like but they do not know biomechanics. They follow a model that has been passed down for years and continues to get validated by those who play the game -who do not look remotely the same when they swing a golf club. (Except for key elements).

Therefore, the key elements, as many on this forum agree are what are necessary to become a great ball striker. I would like to suggest one step further and propose finding an easier way (both physically and mentally) to achieve these key positions - to which I believe Moe Norman discovered.

Therefore, the best swing for you is one where the club aligns on plane and moves on plane - and you find a simple way to achieve the positions that help you do that. Band-aids are nothing in my world. There is no such thing - the club and body either moves correctly or they do not. If the club is not moving correctly, it has something to do with how you (the body) is moving.

Furthermore, instruction is not unattainable for you. You can teach yourself just as I have done and everyone who can strike a golf ball has done. It is all about taking responsibility for your own learning, dedicating yourself to that learning and following through. The information is available.

And here is the final question. When you take responsibility for your learning, what are you going to do?

Todd
There is an extensive background in teaching physical activities so the answer about the easiest way to for someone to learn any physical skill correctly is no secret:

1) You need to know the positions you need to achieve
2) You need to build the capacity to achieve those positions with ease
3) You need to build the endurance to achieve them repeatedly
4) You need to know the correct sequence of the motions for the skill
5) You need to learn the correct sequence of the motions
5) You need to train so that the correct sequence becomes your 'habit'

There is no shortcut to mastery and by implication any particular level of skill. Many studies of different physical (and non physical) skills show that mastery takes apx 10,000 hours performing the skill. For those with less talent it may take more

There was a master class held by Maxim Vengerov (violinist) and one of the pupils was an 11 year old who, despite her age, clearly deserved to be there as much as any of the older pupils. When asked how much she practiced she said that she'd parcticed 6 hours a day since she started at age 5. In fact she took up violin instead of piano because her older sister played piano and there was no way she would've been able to practice enough because they only had one. Let's see - 6 hours/day X 300 days/year (assume some days not practicing) X 6 years = 10,800. Probably a fair model for the young Moe based on his biography.

Peter
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 12th, 2001, 12:35 am

May 10th, 2009, 2:56 am #8

agree...100 percent. Based on your six criteria, it would be beneficial to have a model. And one that is more easily achieved. IMO.

Todd
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 23rd, 2009, 3:58 am

May 10th, 2009, 5:11 am #9

to sight read music as well as control the dexterity ,
of their hands (oops bad word)--- not where there knees are while they are making a c note --
I regularly get a student to change a bad shooting habit to a good one in 3 repetitions --- understanding is a big key
(by the way peter --I know some blind guy can play a guitar with his feet-- I wonder how??) Do you think a blind person could hit a skeet target??
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: June 28th, 2005, 6:35 am

May 10th, 2009, 9:02 am #10

There is an extensive background in teaching physical activities so the answer about the easiest way to for someone to learn any physical skill correctly is no secret:

1) You need to know the positions you need to achieve
2) You need to build the capacity to achieve those positions with ease
3) You need to build the endurance to achieve them repeatedly
4) You need to know the correct sequence of the motions for the skill
5) You need to learn the correct sequence of the motions
5) You need to train so that the correct sequence becomes your 'habit'

There is no shortcut to mastery and by implication any particular level of skill. Many studies of different physical (and non physical) skills show that mastery takes apx 10,000 hours performing the skill. For those with less talent it may take more

There was a master class held by Maxim Vengerov (violinist) and one of the pupils was an 11 year old who, despite her age, clearly deserved to be there as much as any of the older pupils. When asked how much she practiced she said that she'd parcticed 6 hours a day since she started at age 5. In fact she took up violin instead of piano because her older sister played piano and there was no way she would've been able to practice enough because they only had one. Let's see - 6 hours/day X 300 days/year (assume some days not practicing) X 6 years = 10,800. Probably a fair model for the young Moe based on his biography.

Peter
Moe didnt have a teacher.
He had to practice, teach himself what happen in his body by fatigue as he got pain in the muscles he used to that degree.
So for him, the learning had to be longer as he was selftaught, but he didnt get it all even in the start as he continue to work on getting better.

Besides, it wasnt his ability to swing that made him shoot 59 several times.
It was his ability to play golf in spite of poor putting.

1) You need to know the positions you need to achieve
Not true.

As proven by many tour pro´s who simply swing and show instructions without knowing what they do, Antony Kim is the latest example.

/Robert
Quote
Like
Share