Moe Norman analysis...

Moe Norman analysis...

Joined: October 26th, 2000, 5:07 pm

August 9th, 2009, 12:00 am #1

done by Somax Sports. I think some of it has merit... some doesn't. It appears they could have drawn the line for Moe's swing plane differently - then their analysis would be different. Interesting read though.


http://www.somaxsports.com/moenorman1.html
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Joined: September 3rd, 2004, 7:57 pm

August 9th, 2009, 4:40 am #2

Rick,

Nice find on that article. I can understand, although of course disagree with their idea of what Swing Plane is, as we believe swing plane is determined by the club design (ie. length, lie angle)

Reading through their analysis, and trying to teach a swing based on Iron Byron as they do, is great in theory, with one glaring fault; Iron Byron's "hands" are attached directly to his "spine", where we humans have those pesky shoulders to deal with, which can move independently of the spine.

Anyway, thanks again for the article.

Scott
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

August 9th, 2009, 1:04 pm #3

done by Somax Sports. I think some of it has merit... some doesn't. It appears they could have drawn the line for Moe's swing plane differently - then their analysis would be different. Interesting read though.


http://www.somaxsports.com/moenorman1.html
with lots of what they say. The whole "firing of the hips" thing has caused lotsa problems for golfers over the decades. (You hear the TV guys comment alot about it every weekend too, therefore it must be a good thing.) SOMAX analysis is proof of this in that they say the "use of the hips" is what generates "massive force which is then transmitted to the club via the trunk and arms."

They mention centrifugal force, but fail to mention anything about lag, and retaining of the angle as a common denominator in all powerful swings. You can fire your hips all you want but if you don't follow the "lead" with the "lag" you will not hit it out of your shadow. Consciously trying to "fire the hips" or as they say "use the hips" is bad advice IMO.

To be fair, we don't know how they teach their golfers to "use their hips", but I can tell you "how they are used" in an efficient swing. And you don't need that gadget they sell to learn it. You set up with your weight on the edge of your trail foot ( right Rem? ) and have the feel that it is running up the entire inside of your trail leg. You pinch your knees toward each other slightly as well. When you turn, you maintain this focus throughout the back swing, turning against the brace of the trail leg all the way to the top of the backswing. This will create torque or as Bertholy says "muscle antagonism". Then, BEFORE YOU MOVE YOUR SHOULDERS OR ARMS AT ALL, YOU MOVE YOUR LEAD KNEE BACK TOWARD THE TARGET to it's original address position. If you have maintained the trail leg brace as describe above, and perform this action correctly, you will be "using your hips" correctly without having to think about it. And when viewed from the rear you will be able to see "both cheeks" in the impact zone:




I think one of the best practical descriptions on how to use your hips can be found in Tommy Armour's book "How Top Play Best Golf all the Time". He says just make your trail knee go toward the target, just do that and the hips will take care of themselves. A good description coming at it form a little different angle.
Last edited by mcirishman57 on August 9th, 2009, 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 23rd, 2006, 1:06 pm

August 9th, 2009, 1:31 pm #4

Some people thrive on being contrary. If you start the swing from the ground up ( feet/knees),then fire the hips the shoulders will follow then the arms (loose and relaxed) will follow then the club will follow. It would be hard not to get lag. Moe's mantra KISS!!!!!
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Joined: April 22nd, 2004, 9:58 pm

August 9th, 2009, 3:02 pm #5

with lots of what they say. The whole "firing of the hips" thing has caused lotsa problems for golfers over the decades. (You hear the TV guys comment alot about it every weekend too, therefore it must be a good thing.) SOMAX analysis is proof of this in that they say the "use of the hips" is what generates "massive force which is then transmitted to the club via the trunk and arms."

They mention centrifugal force, but fail to mention anything about lag, and retaining of the angle as a common denominator in all powerful swings. You can fire your hips all you want but if you don't follow the "lead" with the "lag" you will not hit it out of your shadow. Consciously trying to "fire the hips" or as they say "use the hips" is bad advice IMO.

To be fair, we don't know how they teach their golfers to "use their hips", but I can tell you "how they are used" in an efficient swing. And you don't need that gadget they sell to learn it. You set up with your weight on the edge of your trail foot ( right Rem? ) and have the feel that it is running up the entire inside of your trail leg. You pinch your knees toward each other slightly as well. When you turn, you maintain this focus throughout the back swing, turning against the brace of the trail leg all the way to the top of the backswing. This will create torque or as Bertholy says "muscle antagonism". Then, BEFORE YOU MOVE YOUR SHOULDERS OR ARMS AT ALL, YOU MOVE YOUR LEAD KNEE BACK TOWARD THE TARGET to it's original address position. If you have maintained the trail leg brace as describe above, and perform this action correctly, you will be "using your hips" correctly without having to think about it. And when viewed from the rear you will be able to see "both cheeks" in the impact zone:




I think one of the best practical descriptions on how to use your hips can be found in Tommy Armour's book "How Top Play Best Golf all the Time". He says just make your trail knee go toward the target, just do that and the hips will take care of themselves. A good description coming at it form a little different angle.
doesn't open his hips appreciably until
post-impact and he is one of the longest
drivers. I wonder how Somax would analyze
his swing? He certainly doesn't "fire" his
hips at least in any rotary way.
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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

August 9th, 2009, 4:05 pm #6

with lots of what they say. The whole "firing of the hips" thing has caused lotsa problems for golfers over the decades. (You hear the TV guys comment alot about it every weekend too, therefore it must be a good thing.) SOMAX analysis is proof of this in that they say the "use of the hips" is what generates "massive force which is then transmitted to the club via the trunk and arms."

They mention centrifugal force, but fail to mention anything about lag, and retaining of the angle as a common denominator in all powerful swings. You can fire your hips all you want but if you don't follow the "lead" with the "lag" you will not hit it out of your shadow. Consciously trying to "fire the hips" or as they say "use the hips" is bad advice IMO.

To be fair, we don't know how they teach their golfers to "use their hips", but I can tell you "how they are used" in an efficient swing. And you don't need that gadget they sell to learn it. You set up with your weight on the edge of your trail foot ( right Rem? ) and have the feel that it is running up the entire inside of your trail leg. You pinch your knees toward each other slightly as well. When you turn, you maintain this focus throughout the back swing, turning against the brace of the trail leg all the way to the top of the backswing. This will create torque or as Bertholy says "muscle antagonism". Then, BEFORE YOU MOVE YOUR SHOULDERS OR ARMS AT ALL, YOU MOVE YOUR LEAD KNEE BACK TOWARD THE TARGET to it's original address position. If you have maintained the trail leg brace as describe above, and perform this action correctly, you will be "using your hips" correctly without having to think about it. And when viewed from the rear you will be able to see "both cheeks" in the impact zone:




I think one of the best practical descriptions on how to use your hips can be found in Tommy Armour's book "How Top Play Best Golf all the Time". He says just make your trail knee go toward the target, just do that and the hips will take care of themselves. A good description coming at it form a little different angle.
golf swing backwards and fowards.

In your analysis you say- "BEFORE YOU MOVE YOUR SHOULDERS OR ARMS AT ALL, YOU MOVE YOUR LEAD KNEE BACK TOWARD THE TARGET to it's original address position."

The question i have is, do you have to TRY to move your SHOULDERS OR ARMS
at all? Wound up tight aganist my trail post or leg, the torque and tenision
is so strong that the move of the lead knee to start the down swing
just seems to fire everything down and thru to the finish and all
i do is hold on.

I have tried to swing by activly using my arms after the lead knee
move but there seems to be more timing issues with that type of swing.
When i do hit the ball good with this swing,my accuracy is better than the
with the "no arms" swing.

So even though i am a much better ball striker with the "no arms" swing,
the "armsy" swing bangs it right at the pin almost every time.



Any tips to increase my accuracy with the "no arms" swing?
How important is ball position with this type of swing?

JC
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

August 10th, 2009, 12:43 pm #7

Moetion's post is dead on...as far as it goes. The thing is most people DON'T begin the downswing from the ground up, AND there are at least two here (Including yours truly )who have found that there is still a need to train to lag even though they get to the front side properly. Beginning the downswing from the ground up is a good start, but it is no guarantee you will lag and retain the angle.

Regarding trying to move your shoulders or trying anything for that matter by conscious direction - That is for the training ground only. When training and practicing, we try and think about the moves we want to get into our swing. On the course we must play thought free of any mechanics at all.

A proper set up does indeed create torque that with a properly sequenced swing will unleash lots of effortless power.

As far as accuracy goes, there are two answers. The first is for most players, power and accuracy are inversely related. You sacrifice some power for more accuracy and some accuracy for more distance. The best "tip" I can think of is quiet and simple if you want accuracy. Think of a putt. Did you see the wedge Tiger hit on 17 yesterday? They showed stills through the impact zone and both of his feet were flat on the ground....quiet. You don't see both his feet on the ground when he is trying to drive a 320 yard hole...not as quiet.

The second answer is one for another thread ( and probably another forum ). Some people just aren't that accurate. They are wasting their time if they spend it trying to be more accurate. Think Seve Ballesteros. But Seve was one of the most creative players in the game's history. Others are great ball strikers, and always have been. Think Mike Reid ( radar was his nickmname ) now on the senior tour. If a person goes about life in a seemingly scattered manner, then most likely his shots will be that way too. If a person is precise and meticulous in life, pretty good chance that will be what his game is like. The rub is that often we try to play the game like someone we are not. When this happens, it puts us out of balance and our system has a hard time managing the resources required to play pour best golf. The best players know their game, and play to their strengths, and manage their weaknesses. The beauty of the game is you can score no matter what kind of game you have....but you gotta play your game.
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Joined: April 23rd, 2006, 1:06 pm

August 10th, 2009, 7:06 pm #8

What does Bertholy say about arm and shoulder tension? Does he advocate loose relaxed arms and hands. It was pointed out to me that I had to much tension and stiffness in my arms,hand and shoulders. A deep exhale and noodle arms thoughts have me swinging with great lag and a nice release.
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

August 11th, 2009, 12:17 pm #9

Is what he wants the golfer to be. He says things like if you are walking on the course and cannot feel your arms swinging as you walk you are too tense.

There is a bad tension and there is "muscle antagonism". Bertholy illustrates the concept of muscle antagonism with a simple exercise from something we are all familiar with - the finger flick.

First, flick the end of your nose without retaining the middle finger with the thumb. Try and flick it as hard as you can. Next, retain the middle finger with the thumb and flick your nose again...if you dare. OUCH! Note that thewre is tension built up and released very powerful.

To illustrate how the bad tension can affect release and power...form the finger flick position again holding the middle finger back with the thumb. Now...tighten the whole hand assembly while holding the finger flick. Once your hand is as tight as it can be, release the thumb for its hold and note a very weak flick. Now do the same thing, but this time increase the tension in the thumb and middle finger, but relax the rest of the hand.

Bertholy wants you to be relaxed..so you can create maximum muscle antagonism....the opposing forces that will generate maximum club head speed and power.
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Joined: March 25th, 2003, 7:50 am

August 11th, 2009, 12:32 pm #10

Are there drills that you have found that worked? Is the old adage of holding the club like it was a bird a good feeling to try?

Thanks for any info.

Wayne
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